"… He Did Go About Secretly … Seeking To Destroy The Church …"

[Log]

Bruce R., whatever faults he may have had, was firmly on the Lord's side. Thanks for that story. May we all take it to heart and emulate the servants of the Lord.

[wenglund]

Getting back on topic...what is to be made of Moroni's Standard of Liberty and the cause of liberty he espoused (http://www.lds.org/s...lma/46?lang=eng), particularly in relation to the "false teacher", Amalickiah, and others (see vs. 30 and 35). How dare Captain Moroni not take this matter to his bishop and leave it in the bishops hand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited June 8, 2012 by wenglund

[volgadon]

Getting back on topic...what is to be made of Moroni's Standard of Liberty and the cause of liberty he espoused (http://www.lds.org/s...lma/46?lang=eng), particularly in relation to the "false teacher", Amalickiah, and others (see vs. 30 and 35). How dare Captain Moroni not take this matter to his bishop and leave it in the bishops hand.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, are you being serious?

[Scott Lloyd]

This is a good point. I don't think anyone is talking about taking things into their own hands; however, it is appropriate to identify such wolves and bring them to the attention of church leaders.

Agreed.

Although I'm not sure about binding them first, as the people of Ammon and Jershon did with Korihor. That seems a bit draconian in this day and age.

(I'm writing this on an iPod Touch, so I can't insert a smiley here.)

[SamIam]

This off-topic preachment is brought to you by the Church of Whatever YOU Wish to Believe. Step up to receive your complimentary peace symbols.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

While I try keep my chuckles offline and to myself when I read a humorous response, I found that my own consternations concerning this same post that Wade is responding to, found contented release in the fact that someone else felt the same way as I was feeling but said it so much better than I could ever have hoped. Here Here Wade.

[Scott Lloyd]

I had a SS teacher who was teaching "on the edge". I simply went to the SS president, told him what was going on, and left it to him how to handle it.

You acted properly, though I think I would have gone to the bishop, whose duty is to ensure the doctrinal purity of what is taught in the ward.

[volgadon]

Agreed.

Although I'm not sure about binding them first, as the people of Ammon and Jershon did with Korihor. That seems a bit draconian in this day and age.

(I'm writing this on an iPod Touch, so I can't insert a smiley here.)

To clarify things somewhat, do you think we should proactively search for them?

[wenglund]

Wade, are you being serious?

Yes...in a humorous sort of way.

I am pointing out passages that good folks like Jeremy and other peaceniks will need to execute from their personal canon of scripture in order to hold to their private belief in a purely kind and gentle God.

And, for your benefit, I am also pointing out scriptures where false teachers were executed--including by people who weren't Alma..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Nominee]

This may make some sense when the wolves are devouring the sheep in person, and where both the wolves and the sheep are a part of the same local flock. It doesn't make much sense with world-wide online discussion boards, particularly where some of the wolves and sheep are posting anonymously. In such situations, I view it as morally imparitive (speaking of "God-given authority") for each of us to confront the wolves for the sake of the flock.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, I am speaking of in person, in ward, in stake scenarios when I say to take it to those with authority.

I realize that many come to the internet for the sole purpose of being confrontational. I do my best online to defend my faith and my God without stirring up contentions. I come to the internet to seek out uplifting conversation. And to be honest, I find plenty of it here on this board which is why I stick around. I also feel that with all the wolves out here, the faithful hold there own while for the most part maintaining a christian behavior.

Whether we are online or in person, there is a standard that Heavenly Father sets for us. A standard we are to abide even in the face of the enemy. ESPECIALLY in the face of the enemy!

Regards, Naomi

[volgadon]

Yes...in a humorous sort of way.

I am pointing out passages that good folks like Jeremy and other peaceniks will need to execute from their personal canon of scripture in order to hold to their private belief in a purely kind and gentle God.

And, for your benefit, I am also pointing out scriptures where false teachers were executed--including by people who weren't Alma..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think you are using "false teacher" in an exceptionally broad fashion, rendering it almost meaningless. Take Nehor for example, he wasn't executed for his false teachings, but for his killing of Gideon.

[Scott Lloyd]

To clarify things somewhat, do you think we should proactively search for them?

Do you mean in a ward/stake setting or on the Internet? Not sure I understand what you are asking.

[Libs]

Wade...we all, ultimately, believe "whatever we want", whether it is to believe every word of what we decide is "scripture" or decide to, perhaps, accept some of it and leave the rest, based on conscience, spiritual promptings, or just plain old common sense.

[volgadon]

Do you mean in a ward/stake setting or on the Internet? Not sure I understand what you are asking.

Anywhere. SHould we proactively search for the wolves in sheep's clothing.

[zerinus]

(I'm writing this on an iPod Touch, so I can't insert a smiley here.)

You can add smileys by entering the code. For example, a colon followed by a closing bracket adds an ordinary smile. A colon followed by a capital D adds a big smile.

Typed on my iPod!

[Storm Rider]

Oh Brother...REALLY?????

Oh NO you've exposed us....there is a vast right wing apostate conspiracy to destroy the church...drat and we all thought it was being done in complete secrecy...well you've really foiled our evil plans to destroy the church now.... drat foiled again....

Here's a suggestion...

Drop the paranoia…there is no conspiracy to destroy the church…why would there be…the church is doing a pretty good job of destroying itself on its own....without so-called apostates help...a majority of Mormom members don't even participate in Mormonism

Most former Mormons would love nothing more than to just be able to walk away and never look back…

Willy, don't flatter yourself. You are not a wolf in sheep's clothing. You long ago set aside any pretense of being a sheep. You are just an ordinary apostate; nothing more and nothing less. They come a dime a dozen. No one would ever look at your and think, "Now there is a wondreful example of a disciple of Jesus Christ." That is what is needed to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. It is a poser, a false person. You are not false; you continously wave your colors for all to see.

I just hope that you can look yourself in the mirror and be proud of the type of person you have become. It is not pretty.

[Jude2]

mmmm new here, Is it alright to point fingers?

Okay I’ll not name names, it’s just the idea of “secretly” which nails this.

There is a group of Mormon feminist on facebook. They claim to be nothing but dear kind hearted Mormons (that’s were the flattery comes in, they flatter themselves a lot) but tell their members to start stealth book clubs and invite the most compassionate women in the ward to join. (of course conservative women can’t possibly be compassionate) Every conferences they hold a fast hoping for more information from our leaders about our Mother in Heaven.

Half the time I laugh at them and the other half I shake my head wondering why they stay in the Church. I'm sure they would never think of themselves as seeking to destroy the church just change it. They are ‘community organizers’ promoting a socialist liberation theology and their real objective seems to be to plant seeds of discontent.

have I gone to far, I'm sorry I don't know where the lines are drawn here.

[Storm Rider]

mmmm new here, Is it alright to point fingers?

Okay I’ll not name names, it’s just the idea of “secretly” which nails this.

There is a group of Mormon feminist on facebook. They claim to be nothing but dear kind hearted Mormons (that’s were the flattery comes in, they flatter themselves a lot) but tell their members to start stealth book clubs and invite the most compassionate women in the ward to join. (of course conservative women can’t possibly be compassionate) Every conferences they hold a fast hoping for more information from our leaders about our Mother in Heaven.

Half the time I laugh at them and the other half I shake my head wondering why they stay in the Church. I'm sure they would never think of themselves as seeking to destroy the church just change it. They are ‘community organizers’ promoting a socialist liberation theology and their real objective seems to be to plant seeds of discontent.

have I gone to far, I'm sorry I don't know where the lines are drawn here.

I don't think we are too keen on trying to point a finger at any specific group, organized or not. I think it may be better to just identify the behaviors of these type of people. On the other hand, if a group is open about their intent, I guess it would be acceptable to say X has a facebook page and this is what they are doing. What's up wit dat?

The Church is made up of such a broad range of people. There is value in coming into a unity of the faith...but it is faith in Christ where our foundation begins and ends. Some members, like this group, cling to some strange ideas. I am reminded of that poor Johnson woman that stood up in conference to shout nay. God bless her. Unfortunately, she evolved and remains a radical femnist who has no clue about cultural history, mansculinity, and common sense. These people sound similar to her. They are not content with our Father in Heaven. Jesus should have told us to pray to our mother in heaven. When we begin by telling God what he should be doing, know that pride has overwhelmed our carnal mind and we are lost. To be a disciple of Christ we first learn to submit to him and his will for us. These poor souls are out on a limb telling the Lord they know best; I pity them and I have done similar things in my life. I can't throw stones at them, but I know error when I see it.

[Scott Lloyd]

Anywhere. SHould we proactively search for the wolves in sheep's clothing.

In a ward/stake setting, I don't know how I would accomplish that, even if I were so inclined. And I'm not at all persuaded that it's necessary. For example, in many years of teaching gospel doctrine, I never once encountered a class member who was argumentative or seemed inclined to ravage the flock, as it were.

If such are present, they keep a very low profile that escapes my ability to detect them.

On an Internet forum such as this, of course, it's a different matter entirely. I come here fully expecting to encounter individuals who, to a greater or lesser degree and in one way or another, oppose the teachings and faith of the Latter-day Saints.

I can't hunt down and deliver the wolves here either. But as I've said on more than one occasion in the past, my ongoing concern here is for the unseen lurker who is in a very real danger of being misled if the antagonists are not confronted and their words are not challenged. I can try to keep my interactions civil, even cordial, but as you and I witnessed day before yesterday, it is not always easy or possible to do that while being bold and direct. Some people truly hate to be contradicted.

At a FAIR Conference a few years ago, Dan Peterson gave a talk in which he applied the principle of triage to rescuing and reclaiming struggling or lost souls. The idea is that cases must be prioritized according to urgency and prognosis.

Frankly, the vast majority of the antagonists who come on here are beyond any help that I could give, especially when they post anonymously. They are too far gone, and they're not interested in being reclaimed anyway. If we could interact face-to-face in a ward setting, where friendships could be cultivated and mutual understanding developed, maybe things would be different, but not here.

So I turn my thoughts to the undetermined number of readers who might be observing the conversations here. Perhaps I can help one or two of them by confronting and confounding as best I can some of the sophistries that are served up here by detractors. And maybe I don't accomplish a lot individually, but I can at least lend a hand to others who have the same objective. Perhaps we'll never know the results of our collective efforts, but I still think it's worth the trouble.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

You can add smileys by entering the code. For example, a colon followed by a closing bracket adds an ordinary smile. A colon followed by a capital D adds a big smile.

Typed on my iPod!

Show-off!

Seriously, thanks for the tip.

(Typed on my desktop PC with unhindered emoticon capability.)

[zerinus]

In my opinion, the Internet is a great equaliser. When people post on the Internet, they strip themselves of all priesthood keys an ecclesiastical authority that they may possess, and bring themselves on the same level as everybody else. If the Prophet were to post here, he would voluntarily strip himself of all his authority in the Church, and bring himself on the same level as everyone else. Here everyone operates at the same level, and is dependent entirely on his own spiritual abilities, gifts, powers, talents, discernment etc. that they may possess. If I observe someone making a mistake in doctrine here, I can try to correct him to the best of my ability. Others can do exactly the same. If he disagrees, he can also reply. If I perceive that someone is acting suspiciously, I can react to the situation as appropriate. If someone appears to be LDS, but behaving more like an apostate, I can say so. The Internet is a jungle, where everyone is responsible for his own defence and protection (and to some extent, those of others). And everyone operates on the same level as everyone else. No one has any advantage over another, except to the measure of the Spirit of the Lord they may be privileged to possess.

In a church setting, however, things change quite a bit. If someone teaches an incorrect doctrine during Sunday School, I can raise my hand and correct his mistake in an appropriate manner. If somebody approaches me in the corridors between meetings, trying to teach me false doctrines, I can tell him why he is wrong. If he tries to make me apostatise by teaching me apostate doctrines, and tries lead me away from the Church, I can pour cold water over his attempt and tell him he knows what he can do with that! If he raises serious concern, then I can report him to the appropriate authorities. But what I can't do is to sit in judgement on him, excommunicate him, or accuse him of having apostatised. That is the job of the ecclesiastical authorities. 

In all situations, however, I believe that I am fully entitled to have the discernment of the Spirit to detect such errors in doctrine (regardless of their origin), and correct them where necessary; and/or detect such deliberate deception which may occur, and identify it accordingly. I think that every Church member is entitled to the gifts of the Spirit to do any of those things (and I dare say, many of them do).

Edited June 8, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

Show-off!

And a colon followed by an opening bracket types a frown!

Still typed on my iPod, while lying in bed. It is more fun this way!

[CASteinman]

There is a group of Mormon feminist on facebook. They claim to be nothing but dear kind hearted Mormons (that’s were the flattery comes in, they flatter themselves a lot) but tell their members to start stealth book clubs and invite the most compassionate women in the ward to join. (of course conservative women can’t possibly be compassionate) Every conferences they hold a fast hoping for more information from our leaders about our Mother in Heaven.

You did not go too far.

Incidentally, I have had some dealings with the leader of that group. She is a hypocrite and surprisingly unkind. She does not give that appearance in public though. So secrecy may be in operation there.

Edited June 8, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

If the Prophet were to post here, he would voluntarily strip himself of all his authority in the Church, and bring himself on the same level as everyone else.

This is perceptual only. In actual fact, the Prophet would continue to hold the authority of God.

[William Schryver]

In a ward/stake setting, I don't know how I would accomplish that, even if I were so inclined. And I'm not at all persuaded that it's necessary. For example, in many years of teaching gospel doctrine, I never once encountered a class member who was argumentative or seemed inclined to ravage the flock, as it were.

If such are present, they keep a very low profile that escapes my ability to detect them.

On an Internet forum such as this, of course, it's a different matter entirely. I come here fully expecting to encounter individuals who, to a greater or lesser degree and in one way or another, oppose the teachings and faith of the Latter-day Saints.

I can't hunt down and deliver the wolves here either. But as I've said on more than one occasion in the past, my ongoing concern here is for the unseen lurker who is in a very real danger of being misled if the antagonists are not confronted and their words are not challenged. I can try to keep my interactions civil, even cordial, but as you and I witnessed day before yesterday, it is not always easy or possible to do that while being bold and direct. Some people truly hate to be contradicted.

At a FAIR Conference a few years ago, Dan Peterson gave a talk in which he applied the principle of triage to rescuing and reclaiming struggling or lost souls. The idea is that cases must be prioritized according to urgency and prognosis.

Frankly, the vast majority of the antagonists who come on here are beyond any help that I could give, especially when they post anonymously. They are too far gone, and they're not interested in being reclaimed anyway. If we could interact face-to-face in a ward setting, where friendships could be cultivated and mutual understanding developed, maybe things would be different, but not here.

So I turn my thoughts to the undetermined number of readers who might be observing the conversations here. Perhaps I can help one or two of them by confronting and confounding as best I can some of the sophistries that are served up here by detractors. And maybe I don't accomplish a lot individually, but I can at least lend a hand to others who have the same objective. Perhaps we'll never know the results of our collective efforts, but I still think it's worth the trouble.

Well said, Scott.

You're one of the champions here, my friend. We've been through many battles together over the years. I've always found it reassuring every time I've turned to find you next to me in the foxhole. There are some people you just know you can count on. You're one of them.

[zerinus]

This is perceptual only. In actual fact, the Prophet would continue to hold the authority of God.

I didn't mean that he would literally lose or forego his authority. I meant that as far as his interactions relative to the other posters are concerned, he would be operating on the same level as the rest of them. That would be especially true if he were operating in anonymity. If he declared his identity then things might be different. But there is no way he can command authority while at the same time acting in anonymity.