CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 So, is a regular member to act like Alma did?If you want to use Alma 30 as a guide, Yes... up to the point of judging his teachings, treating him harshly and tying him up. But not to the point of cursing him with muteness. That should be left up to the Prophet.
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) What you cannot do with a CFR is badger someone. I've answered it, even when you have obviously not been reading my posts, or else you wouldn't say this: "Again... I want a CFR on how it is not our role to judge and evaluate the teaching of members and to either directly call them to account or bring them before the Bishop?Not badgering. Replying. I note you have not given the Reference that says this is not our role.I also note you did not fully quote me, where I said that if you were originally objecting to something never put forward then forget about it... because your objection had no reasonable basis. Edited June 8, 2012 by CASteinman
Avatar4321 Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Should we all go right now to dedicate temples, set apart bishops, and recieve binding revelations for the entire church?You seem to think that's what a prophet does. But a prophet has a much more basic responsibility than that. Sometimes, we misuse the term prophet and use it solely for the President of the High Priesthood. It's true that he is THE PROPHET to the Church. But then his counselors and the Twelve are likewise Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. That is something not all of us are.But to be a prophet is very basic. In fact, we have a meeting dedicated to prophecying in Church every First Sunday of the Month.
Avatar4321 Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 No, but we were not talking about priesthood ordinances. By bringing that up, you are conflating the issue of authority to perform priesthood ordinances under priesthood direction vs the authority to judge the teachings and efforts by other members. That conflation will lead you to be confused on what is right and what is wrong.I would contend that Moroni teaches us how to Judge specifically so that we will exercise that judgment wisely.
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 I would contend that Moroni teaches us how to Judge specifically so that we will exercise that judgment wisely.I would contend exactly the same thing -- and have, many times!!
wenglund Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Personally, I don't believe in the kind of "God" who would kill people for most of the reasons given in the propagandistic nationalistic fictions contained in the Old Testament. Christ brought the sword of truth, the Good Word which defeats death. If one person is authorized to take away someone else's life merely because they claim they are a false teacher, then upon the same principle anyone is authorized to take away the life of every false teacher, and where would be the end of blood, and who would not be the sufferer? But no one is authorized to take away life because of a difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate, right or wrong.So as far as Uzzah the Ark-Steadier goes, even if we do grant for the sake of argument the existence of the kind of God who smites people down for their errors, in context, I think Uzzah is actually guilty of a rather different sin.This off-topic preachment is brought to you by the Church of Whatever YOU Wish to Believe. Step up to receive your complimentary peace symbols. All I wish to say in response is: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."Thanks, -Wade Englund-
Avatar4321 Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 I do not believe you have much choice other than appeal to Priesthood chains. If you attempt any other action, it will be you steadying the ark.You can't remove them from their calling, no. But there scripture cited several posts up indicate that we are to go to them in private and discuss the matter. I dont see how that would be steadying the ark when we are commanded to do just that.In fact, I think when we sustain them we are agreeing to do that as well.
volgadon Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 This off-topic preachment is brought to you by the Church of Whatever YOU Wish to Believe. Step up to receive your complimentary peace symbols. All I wish to say in response is: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."Thanks, -Wade Englund-Yet he is right about executing false teachers. The BoM is against it too.
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Its a strange feeling to read about how the people "wisely" abused Korihor, and then to read demands that we must walk on eggshells around anti-Christs and wolves in the flock. 1
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) You can't remove them from their calling, no. But there scripture cited several posts up indicate that we are to go to them in private and discuss the matter. I dont see how that would be steadying the ark when we are commanded to do just that.In fact, I think when we sustain them we are agreeing to do that as well.Maybe I misread but here is what I saw:1. Person observes false teacher2. Person goes to Bishop.3. Bishop does nothing.4. Person stops attending that class5. Observer then asks "And leave the false teacher to mislead the members?"My reply was in that context. You have no other choice if that is what the Priesthood leadership chooses to do. And in that event, it is entirely possible that it is "The Person" who is on the wrong side of things rather than the teacher or the Bishop. If this is not entirely clear, there are added appeal levels above the Bishop. But eventually one must become a bit humble, eh? Edited June 8, 2012 by CASteinman
Avatar4321 Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Yet he is right about executing false teachers. The BoM is against it too.So was Joseph Smith.
wenglund Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Yet he is right about executing false teachers. The BoM is against it too.Are you referring to Laban? LOL (Oops...I shouldn't encourage this tangent)Thanks, -Wade Englund-
volgadon Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Its a strange feeling to read about how the people "wisely" abused Korihor, and then to read demands that we must walk on eggshells around anti-Christs and wolves in the flock.Ok, buy a rope and truss up suspected crypto-apologists. Is that what you want?
volgadon Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Are you referring to Laban? LOL (Oops...I shouldn't encourage this tangent)Thanks, -Wade Englund-No, I am refering to false teachers.
Avatar4321 Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Maybe I misread but here is what I saw:1. Person observes false teacher2. Person goes to Bishop.3. Bishop does nothing.4. Person stops attending that class5. Observer then asks "And leave the false teacher to mislead the members?"My reply was in that context. You have no other choice if that is what the Priesthood leadership chooses to do. And in that event, it is entirely possible that it is "The Person" who is on the wrong side of things rather than the teacher or the Bishop. If this is not entirely clear, there are added appeal levels above the Bishop. But eventually one must become a bit humble, eh?Yes. We either humble ourselves or the Lord humbles us.
William Schryver Posted June 8, 2012 Author Posted June 8, 2012 “I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.”5 - Joseph Smithhttp://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-27?lang=engIf the Saints neglect to pray, and violate the day that is set apart for the worship of God, they will lose his Spirit. If a man shall suffer himself to be overcome with anger, and curse and swear, taking the name of the Deity in vain, he cannot retain the Holy Spirit. In short, if a man shall do anything which he knows to be wrong, and repenteth not, he cannot enjoy the Holy Spirit, but will walk in darkness and ultimately deny the faith. - Brighm YoungOne of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop? - Brigham Younghttp://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-12?lang=engIm sure there are other good onesIn my opinion, one of the best replies yet on this thread. I probably bring up this topic (of finding fault in our leaders--local and general) at least once a month in my gospel doctrine classes. I have long observed that finding fault with the Church and its leaders is the prime indicator of apostasy.
volgadon Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 If you want to use Alma 30 as a guide, Yes... up to the point of judging his teachings, treating him harshly and tying him up. But not to the point of cursing him with muteness. That should be left up to the Prophet.How come the people of Ammon didn't act like Alma?
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Ok, buy a rope and truss up suspected crypto-apologists. Is that what you want?No. I want to truss up crypto apostates. I like the apologists!
volgadon Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 No. I want to truss up crypto apostates. I like the apologists! Yes, my bad. Friendly fire and what not.
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 How come the people of Ammon didn't act like Alma?Well, they started to but got confused. Alma was clear headed.
Libs Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) Personally, I don't believe in the kind of "God" who would kill people for most of the reasons given in the propagandistic nationalistic fictions contained in the Old Testament. Christ brought the sword of truth, the Good Word which defeats death. If one person is authorized to take away someone else's life merely because they claim they are a false teacher, then upon the same principle anyone is authorized to take away the life of every false teacher, and where would be the end of blood, and who would not be the sufferer? But no one is authorized to take away life because of a difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate, right or wrong.So as far as Uzzah the Ark-Steadier goes, even if we do grant for the sake of argument the existence of the kind of God who smites people down for their errors, in context, I think Uzzah is actually guilty of a rather different sin.You are a man after my own heart. I don't believe in a God who kills, either. I believe in a God of Life. Edited June 8, 2012 by Libs
volgadon Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Well, they started to but got confused.WHERE? This is not a CFR, but please provide a reference.
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) In my opinion, one of the best replies yet on this thread. I probably bring up this topic (of finding fault in our leaders--local and general) at least once a month in my gospel doctrine classes. I have long observed that finding fault with the Church and its leaders is the prime indicator of apostasy.I will give an interesting account on this matter. One of the three individuals in this account yet lives and I will not use his name. But the other is passed away and his identity is important to the story so you can get the sense of the voice.. the booming, authoritative voice -- involved.One day, in a meeting of the 12 and the First Presidency and some other General Authorities, President Kimball fully and entirely tore Bruce R. McConkie up one side and down the other. My friend who witnessed this, and knew some of the details of the matter, felt that this hazing was entirely unjustified and in error. But Bruce McConkie just stood there and took it. Later, my friend (who told this story on himself by the way) went to Elder McConkie and said "Bruce, that was wrong. I am on your side in this".Bruce boomed out and called my friend by his first name saying "________, If you are on the my side then you are on the President Kimball's side. It is an unwise and unrighteous steward who cannot stand the rebuke of the Lord's anointed prophet. " Edited June 8, 2012 by CASteinman 1
CASteinman Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 WHERE? This is not a CFR, but please provide a reference.I was not being serious as I do not think the question is reasonable. And I do not think it is reasonable in the same way that I have not thought it was reasonable all along.Is a man like a woman or not?Is a man like a dog or not?Is a man like God or not?Any of these questions could be answered "yes"... with an explanation ... or "no" with an explanation.Did the crowd act like Alma? Its the same thing. Yes they did... or No they didn't depending upon the degree of coherence sought. I have already pointed this out.There are degrees of things and you are intentionally and repeatedly insisting on perfection of all degrees when that was never intended. I do not consider that a reasonable position and so I have not taken your question seriously. I would have thought the silliness of my answer would have been sufficient to reveal this without explanation.
volgadon Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 I was not being serious as I do not think the question is reasonable. And I do not think it is reasonable in the same way that I have not thought it was reasonable all along.Is a man like a woman or not?Is a man like a dog or not?Is a man like God or not?Any of these questions could be answered "yes"... with an explanation ... or "no" with an explanation.Did the crowd act like Alma? Its the same thing. Yes they did... or No they didn't depending upon the degree of coherence sought. I have already pointed this out.There are degrees of things and you are intentionally and repeatedly insisting on perfection of all degrees when that was never intended. I do not consider that a reasonable position and so I have not taken your question seriously. I would have thought the silliness of my answer would have been sufficient to reveal this without explanation.If you weren't serious that is fine. Can't always gauge that online.
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