Scriptural Defense: Those Who Say Mormons Aren'T Christian

[Saints Alive]

"Blessed are ye, when men shall separate you from their company and shall reproach you, cast out your name as evil, for the son of mans sake. rejoice he in that day, and leap for joy" Luke 6:22-23)

Does this scripture basically foretell that Saints will be said to be Less than Christians and that those who do so will do it in the name of Christ? Or am I misreading the verse?

[thesometimesaint]

Coulds be. But I think it can apply to almost any time in history.

[theplains]

"Blessed are ye, when men shall separate you from their company and shall reproach you, cast out your name as evil, for the son of mans sake. rejoice he in that day, and leap for joy" Luke 6:22-23)

Does this scripture basically foretell that Saints will be said to be Less than Christians and that those who do so will do it in the name of Christ? Or am I misreading the verse?

When I read those verses, it does not indicate various levels of one's faith in Christ and persecution between

members of the various levels. It seems to describe the general attitude of non-believers towards those who

profess to believe in Jesus. It might also be a reference to the Jewish scribes and Pharisees of verse 7 who

would have regarded this new sect as evil (heretics).

Regards,

Jim

[Rob Bowman]

Saints Alive,

You wrote:

"Blessed are ye, when men shall separate you from their company and shall reproach you, cast out your name as evil, for the son of mans sake. rejoice he in that day, and leap for joy" Luke 6:22-23)

Does this scripture basically foretell that Saints will be said to be Less than Christians and that those who do so will do it in the name of Christ? Or am I misreading the verse?

Jesus is here referring to the fact that Jewish religious leaders were going to expel Christians from the synagogue because of their proclamation of Jesus as the Messiah. This is what Jesus means by "separate you from their company." In effect, the Jews were going to excommunicate Christians.

Critics of Mormonism cannot do anything like this to Mormons. You have separated yourselves from traditional Christianity by declaring it to be apostate and your religion the only true church on the earth today. Some opponents of Mormonism have behaved horribly toward Mormons, but their doing so is not in any way a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, because their opposition to Mormonism is not about Mormon belief in Jesus (the Son of Man).

[Vance]

"Blessed are ye, when men shall separate you from their company and shall reproach you, cast out your name as evil, for the son of mans sake. rejoice he in that day, and leap for joy" Luke 6:22-23)

Does this scripture basically foretell that Saints will be said to be Less than Christians and that those who do so will do it in the name of Christ? Or am I misreading the verse?

Let's see.

Being driven from Missouri and Illinois would qualify as "separate you from their company".

There is no question that Mormons have been reproached for our faith. We have been called evil. All for Christ's sake.

So yeah, it does apply.

[olytitan80]

separate you from their company and shall reproach you, cast out your name as evil, for the son of mans sake. rejoice he in that day, and leap for joy" Luke 6:22-23)

Taking this as a single statement, I take it to mean that anyone should know that they will be blessed in some way for taking any kind of flack for believing in Christ. I do not take it as any kind of prophecy or to specifically mean that some who claim Christ will be considered non-Christian.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob:

The early Christian Apostles in the Bible declared some Christians apostate. It would appear that JS was in good company.

[Ryan.Samples]

Rob:

The early Christian Apostles in the Bible declared some Christians apostate. It would appear that JS was in good company.

What do you mean with this statement? And which biblical passage(s) are you referencing?

[thesometimesaint]

http://www.bibletimelines.org/aa36.html

[zerinus]

Jesus is here referring to the fact that Jewish religious leaders were going to expel Christians from the synagogue because of their proclamation of Jesus as the Messiah. This is what Jesus means by "separate you from their company." In effect, the Jews were going to excommunicate Christians.

Critics of Mormonism cannot do anything like this to Mormons. You have separated yourselves from traditional Christianity by declaring it to be apostate and your religion the only true church on the earth today. Some opponents of Mormonism have behaved horribly toward Mormons, but their doing so is not in any way a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, because their opposition to Mormonism is not about Mormon belief in Jesus (the Son of Man).

Until Peter received his great vision commanding him to preach the gospel to Cornelius, and thereafter to all the Gentiles, Christianity was nothing more than a Jewish sect. Therefore by the same logic you could argue that everything that Jesus taught in the four Gospels prior to that time were essentially only applicable to the Jews, and therefore not relevant to the Gentile converts to Christianity afterwards.

[Alan]

"Blessed are ye, when men shall separate you from their company and shall reproach you, cast out your name as evil, for the son of mans sake. rejoice he in that day, and leap for joy" Luke 6:22-23)

Does this scripture basically foretell that Saints will be said to be Less than Christians and that those who do so will do it in the name of Christ? Or am I misreading the verse?

I think you're on to something here. Very interesting.

[altersteve]

Some opponents of Mormonism have behaved horribly toward Mormons, but their doing so is not in any way a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, because their opposition to Mormonism is not about Mormon belief in Jesus (the Son of Man).

I would think that a Christian critic's opposition to Mormonism has everything to do with Mormon belief in Jesus Christ.

Edited April 28, 2012 by altersteve

[Franktalk]

These verses apply to every case where one group persecutes another in the name of Christ. Christ was speaking to a large crowd of mixed people and across time. Even when one who calls himself a Christian persecutes another who calls them self a Christian. If in your heart you follow Christ even without knowledge God will bless you. Saul on the road to Damascus thought he was doing God's work and he loved doing God's work. His knowledge was in error but his heart was true to what he believed. We are counted for our faithfulness in our beliefs even if they are in error. So as strange as it may seem two Christians killing each other may both be blessed. Not for the killing but for their faithfulness in their beliefs.

[Monster]

Scriptures generally apply strictly from your point of view. It could be talking about Mormons, or any group.

[Storm Rider]

The first thing to remember is that if one uses the NT to determine what is a Christian, then it is impossible to conclude LDS are not Christian. However, using the definition of 4th century Christianity to define what a "true" Christian is would also condemn every apostle, every disciple, and every follower of Jesus as non-Christian. This is the great fallacy of the 4th century definition.

A Christian must believe in the Trinity: since when? When did God say that? That is right; he never did and it is is only an ignorant man/woman that would demand such a hurdle. None of the first followers of Christ believed in this teaching, because it did not exist at the time. Christ never taught it; never required such a belief in his followers; in fact, he never demanded a belief in any doctrine except, "Come follow me".

If Christians would just understand what they are saying it would be helpful. It is unfortunate that so many of them don't have a clue about what they are saying because they have no understanding of history. Then there are those apologists who simply create definitions to meet their own ends. However, if they are forced to use the scriptures to define what a Christian is, then all the crap is flushed away and we are left with the words of Christ. A much easier, better way to define anything.

[Franktalk]

Scriptures generally apply strictly from your point of view. It could be talking about Mormons, or any group.

You do not need to be a Mormon to be saved or to be blessed. The rules of faithfulness have not changed over the ages. Just the amount of revealed scripture.

[Franktalk]

A Christian must believe in the Trinity: since when? When did God say that? That is right; he never did and it is is only an ignorant man/woman that would demand such a hurdle. None of the first followers of Christ believed in this teaching, because it did not exist at the time. Christ never taught it; never required such a belief in his followers; in fact, he never demanded a belief in any doctrine except, "Come follow me".

And that is but one modern requirement added by man. In the LDS church there is a list of things that are required to be done in the flesh to achieve a certain level in the next life. But the church drives those ordinances if you are a member or not. A soul is a soul. That is why ordinances are done for the dead. The goal must be to act as the hands of Jesus on the earth so as many as can be saved are saved.

[Rob Bowman]

thesometimesaint,

I've been on the road for a couple of weeks and will continue to be for a couple of more weeks, so my opportunities to post are limited. You wrote:

The early Christian Apostles in the Bible declared some Christians apostate. It would appear that JS was in good company.

I declare some "Christians" apostate, too, but as you know full well that is not the issue. The issue is whether the church ceased to exist on the earth for over a millennium and needed to be restored in a new dispensation. The NT apostles never taught such an idea.

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

I had written:

"Some opponents of Mormonism have behaved horribly toward Mormons, but their doing so is not in any way a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, because their opposition to Mormonism is not about Mormon belief in Jesus (the Son of Man)."

You commented:

I would think that a Christian critic's opposition to Mormonism has everything to do with Mormon belief in Jesus Christ.

You are confusing the issue or changing the subject. People who have attacked Mormons physically or in other ways engaged in abusive or other violent behavior toward Mormons have not done so because they disagreed with Mormon theology, but for other reasons (e.g., polygamy). That was my point. People like me, who publicly express theological criticisms of LDS doctrine, are not doing anything abusive or evil toward Mormons. Please keep these two issues distinct.

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

Actually it did, and the Bible bears witness to it.

[altersteve]

Steve,

I had written:

"Some opponents of Mormonism have behaved horribly toward Mormons, but their doing so is not in any way a fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, because their opposition to Mormonism is not about Mormon belief in Jesus (the Son of Man)."

You commented:

You are confusing the issue or changing the subject. People who have attacked Mormons physically or in other ways engaged in abusive or other violent behavior toward Mormons have not done so because they disagreed with Mormon theology, but for other reasons (e.g., polygamy). That was my point. People like me, who publicly express theological criticisms of LDS doctrine, are not doing anything abusive or evil toward Mormons. Please keep these two issues distinct.

My mistake. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

I commend you for your gracious response. Thanks for hearing me out.

My mistake. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Rob Bowman]

thesometimesaint:

You wrote:

Rob Bowman:

Actually it did, and the Bible bears witness to it.

CFR.

[coolrok7]

Scriptural Defense: Those Who Say Mormons Aren'T Christian . . .

Blessed are ye, when men shall separate you from their company and shall reproach you, cast out your name as evil, for the son of mans sake. rejoice he in that day, and leap for joy" Luke 6:22-23)

Does this scripture basically foretell that Saints will be said to be Less than Christians and that those who do so will do it in the name of Christ? Or am I misreading the verse?

It doesn’t apply Biblically at all (unless one has a Mormon belief with the claim of being the “only true church”) to the situation between those known today (since the early 1800’s) as “Latter-day Saints” (or “Mormons”, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and Orthodox Christianity which is not accepting of “Latter-day Saints” as being a part of the body of Christ based on certain doctrinal teaching (concerning the temple especially and all teaching in connection with it).

I believe there is a Scriptural defense for this (in light of the question of the thread op).

The context of the above quote is the Jewish Pharisees after having been in confrontation with Jesus in regards to Him healing people on the Sabbath (later, in talking to His own disciples and others in the crowd the above statement is made):

And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days? And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him; How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? And he said unto them, that the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. (Luke 6:1-5)

Prophetically speaking it would mainly apply to the early Jewish believers who were with Jesus and would have had run-ins with the Jews of the day (which of course happened). It can also apply in the same context of Jews still converting to Christianity today as well.

Ultimately it is about Judaism (not the Mormonism of Joseph Smith) and its fulfillment in Christianity concerning Yeshua (Jesus) (Jews in the historical context of the time were rejecting their Messiah and the immediate conflict which came as the result of those of Judaism becoming Christians):

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:6-12)

The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:19-22)

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:6-eight)

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:11-22)

The Jewish context here cannot be overlooked as Messiah would come to save both the Jews and Gentiles (Isaiah 49, Acts 10). It wasn’t an afterthought but according to Old Testament prophecy:

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isaiah 49:5-6)

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10:36-45)

Paul appealing to Caesar (because of the Jews) eventually led to his martyrdom (Peter was martyred at Rome as well). This also being an example of what was prophesied in other situations concerning how Jesus’ followers would be treated in the context of the spreading of the Gospel:

And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, so shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, what mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, the will of the Lord be done. (Acts 21:10-14)

Now when Festus was come into the province, after three days he ascended from Caesarea to Jerusalem. Then the high priest and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him, and desired favour against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem, laying wait in the way to kill him. But Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly thither. Let them therefore, said he, which among you are able, go down with me, and accuse this man, if there be any wickedness in him. And when he had tarried among them more than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought. And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all. But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me? Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go. (Acts 25:1-12)

I don’t see that the teaching of Joseph Smith at the core as being Christian. It is not that he didn’t have some Christian doctrine. It’s that he also holds to teaching that is not Christian and undoes what he did have in some of his teaching (my view is that Joseph gives with one hand and takes away with the next).

[Anakin7]

And yet coolrok[You being Lutheran yourself ]there are those Christians who would say the same thing about one of the founding Protestant reformers Martin Luther and Lutheranism.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT