why me Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I see this is all about proof writing. Use of words need to be chosen carefully on this forum. Calling mormonism dogmatic might not go unnoticed. Connotation is important. For example: if i wrote a letter to mom and dad stating that I am leaving the church and say that I am uncomfortable being a member of a dogmatic church...this may not be taken too well. But if I use the words, conservative to replace dogmatic, it may just be a little softer for them to handle. See my point? I think that your use of the word dogmatic was strategic for getting a favorable response.
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 Kevin,Can you look into their hearts?No but words are pretty good clues. If you did not use hate filled words then do not fear my sentence. It does not apply to you.Remind me again what is the most important commandment? Does that apply to brethren and sisters over homosexuals? I condemned the hatred not the teaching of chastity. I am a staunch defender of the Latter-day Saints. I do not condone and am angry with the nastiness some posters got into (and got banned for as they should have).
why me Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Kevin,But then, I think everyone really wants peace, community, and harmony. Maybe I'm wrong.In general you are right. But being human, we react in different ways to different situations. And much has to do with socialization. It is not easy to live in a postmodern world where everyone wants their values and practices to be affirmed by everyone without dissent or problem.
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 Here is the sentence in context: "I know that it was difficult for you to see me embrace a very dogmatic religion like the Mormons. After voicing some initial fear of what it would do to our relationship or the risk of me going all "church lady" on you (isn't that nice) - to your credit you embraced my growth down this divergent path without letting it negatively affect our relationship."I was addressing his fears and his state of mind at the time. He saw the church (and any comprehensive religion) as a scary thing. I already said conservative would be an acceptable substitute. Although conservative has a negative connotation with many people these days.
Log Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) It does not apply to you.I wasn't in the thread. To be honest, however, you used a word that I vehemently despise to see aimed at anyone. And it wasn't "dogmatic."Remind me again what is the most important commandment?Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength. Does that apply to brethren and sisters over homosexuals? I condemned the hatred not the teaching of chastity. I am a staunch defender of the Latter-day Saints. I do not condone and am angry with the nastiness some posters got into (and got banned for as they should have).I disagree about their bannings. Shall I also be condemned? Edited April 9, 2012 by Log
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 In general you are right. But being human, we react in different ways to different situations. And much has to do with socialization. It is not easy to live in a postmodern world where everyone wants their values and practices to be affirmed by everyone without dissent or problem.That is where I credit my friends response. He is fine with me affirming our relationship without condoning every bit of his lifestyle. He's a grown man and not naive about what my beliefs are. I was reaching out because I didn't want our differences to be an impediment to our close friendship and all that we respect about each other.
why me Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 No but words are pretty good clues.My point with your use of the word dogmatic.
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength....finish that thought.
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 My point with your use of the word dogmatic.3rd times a charm. Point taken. Use conservative if you like it.
why me Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Here is the sentence in context: "I know that it was difficult for you to see me embrace a very dogmatic religion like the Mormons. After voicing some initial fear of what it would do to our relationship or the risk of me going all "church lady" on you (isn't that nice) - to your credit you embraced my growth down this divergent path without letting it negatively affect our relationship."I was addressing his fears and his state of mind at the time. He saw the church (and any comprehensive religion) as a scary thing. I already said conservative would be an acceptable substitute. Although conservative has a negative connotation with many people these days.I know what you were doing. I said it was strategic. But it may not go over well on this board. Not because they are narrow and closed minded but because they may not believe that their faith is dogmatic. But by using the word with your friend, you showed a commonality with him about mormonism being dogmatic. I got it right away. Edited April 9, 2012 by why me
Log Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 ...finish that thought.You asked for the highest. The next one is "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." 1
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 Log please excuse my cynicism but your laser focus on one word in one sentence makes me suspicious that you took issue with more than my castigation of those people who were very, very intolerant and nasty towards others because they weren't keeping gospel standards for sexuality.While some of this can be push back on the militant political movements that sometimes accompany gay rights protests I don't think it is becoming of the Saints to go around playing God and condemning others. If my dander is up because I've seen to many struggling Saints and sinners hurt by those taking a superior attitude then perhaps you can be charitable and see why I am defensive?
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 You asked for the highest. The next one is "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."Where does condemn thy neighbor for not obeying God fall on that list?
why me Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 However, I see nothing wrong with you coming out of the closet and wish you success with this relationship.
Log Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I don't think it is becoming of the Saints to go around playing God and condemning others.That was my point in a nutshell. Maybe you can't see where you did that in your letter against your brothers and sisters.
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 That was my point in a nutshell. Maybe you can't see where you did that in your letter against your brothers and sisters.So don't lower myself to their level? I can see that.Elder Holland said something I liked at the last General Conference:"It needs to be taught and understood that we love and respect all of the people whom Lehi described.8 Remember, it is not up to us to judge. Judgment is the Lord’s.9 President Thomas S. Monson has specifically asked us to have the “courage to refrain from judging others.”10 He has also asked every faithful member to rescue those who have tasted of the gospel fruit and then have fallen away, as well as those who have not yet found the strait and narrow path. We pray that they will hold to the rod and partake of the love of God, which will fill their “soul with exceedingly great joy."Now in fairness I'm being castigated for calling someone narrow minded or bigoted. A far cry from condemning them to hell. I kind of scratch my head and wonder where you were when that was going on?
Log Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) I declined to participate in that thread since I had nothing to add to any such conversation. I only posted on this one because it was in Social Hall. If it had started out in General Discussions, I wouldn't have posted in it."Bigot" is a word that I will accept from a servant of the Lord on the Lord's errand. I very much otherwise despise that word and the smug superiority - the essential enmity - I would have to have in my heart to apply it to others. If I were to call someone a bigot, I would be saying, in essence, they were rotten in their heart, their soul - that they were filthy. Edited April 9, 2012 by Log
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Fair enough.As I use the term bigot I say it to mean someone who will not extend others the courtesy and respect that they demand themselves.I'm sure Webster will have a field day with us both. The jury is still out for me whether discussion board activity is even remotely close to "the Lord's errand." Edited April 9, 2012 by KevinG
MorningStar Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I think it's wonderful that you have a gay friend who you love. So do I. When I was in high school, I had a gay friend who wanted to go to the prom with a guy. Jerks in our school threatened to beat the crud out of them and we told him if he wanted to go, we would help guard him. I don't care about prom because it's not a sacred ordinance.My dad has been supportive of our activity in the church, but he is still offended by the church and won't come to any baby blessings, baptisms, etc. He'll come for a family party later.One of my best friends wouldn't play the piano for me at my great grandmother's funeral because it was going to be in our church building. I think in her church, they warn her against going to our meetings, so she told me in the nicest way possible that she couldn't do it. I didn't make a big deal out of it. She understood too when I bowed out of her 30th bday party which ended up being nothing but bar hopping. I had already paid $40 for the hotel and just told her "Happy Birthday". I just can't be around people getting drunk. It's too painful for me. Neither of those things have gotten in the way of our over 20 year friendship.To attend a gay wedding, it would hurt me because I feel it hurts Heavenly Father. I might go to a reception for it later, but the idea of witnessing the ceremony is not something I feel like I could get through without crying. When I read the family proclamation, it hits me hard how important marriage between a man and a woman is to Heavenly Father. I don't care if someone else wants to support it, but I can't do it. 1
Log Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Oh yeah, I know the dictionary definition. Bigotry, however, is the superset of "racist" "sexist" "homophobic" "discriminatory" etc etc.; which as used in our culture now marks those who do it as deserving less than common courtesy, charity, and so forth - indeed, one might say that killing bigots would be a service to God. At least, that's the impression one gets.You're not the only one I've taken issue with over this word.Stephen Robinson wrote an otherwise OK article in which he called a certain persons who held a caricature he developed of a traditional belief about the scriptures "bigoted." Yet, holders of the view he's caricaturing could be, and in all likelihood are, completely innocent of bigotry.It's kind of hard to apply the label without partaking of its contents oneself. Edited April 9, 2012 by Log
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) I understand your position. My friend would not ask to be sealed in our Temples or for us to change our rules. He did attend my baptism because it was important to me.I look upon a civil or "other" ceremony for gays as about as binding as any civil ceremony or protestant marriage. Till death and in the eyes of the law.Now that makes me somewhat biased towards the authority of the LDS church. I have been very clear with my friend that if he ever wanted to be a Mormon we'd have to talk about what he was willing to sacrifice to do so. I don't see that happening in this life, but I hope that if it happens in time or eternity he trusts me enough to come to me first to receive support.My end game in all of this is to return to my Father in Heaven with my family and friends. All of them. Edited April 9, 2012 by KevinG
KevinG Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Oh yeah, I know the dictionary definition. Bigotry, however, is the superset of "racist" "sexist" "homophobic" "discriminatory" etc etc.; which as used in our culture now marks those who do it as deserving less than common courtesy, charity, and so forth - indeed, one might say that killing bigots would be a service to God. At least, that's the impression one gets.You're not the only one I've taken issue with over this word.Stephen Robinson wrote an otherwise OK article in which he called a certain persons who held a caricature he developed of a traditional belief about the scriptures "bigoted."It's kind of hard to apply the label without partaking of its contents oneself.Gotcha! I'll set down my baggage if you will set down yours! (grin)This is definitely a charged topic and I admit to my own reactionary nature in this case. Edited April 9, 2012 by KevinG
Log Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Yeah, well, I guess I've nothing more to contribute. Edited April 9, 2012 by Log
LDSToronto Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 We live in a shock and awe world. But when we do the shock and awe, we can expect a reaction that may not be too pleasant. The shock and awer needs to learn to wait until people digest the idea and allow it to be thought about by the people concerned. What reaction did you expect from people? Christian love? Of course this is ideal but in a shock and awe situation this may not be the first reaction since human nature has many opposites.I always try not to respond too quickly when I am being shocked and awed.This is the reaction Jesus Christ expects.H.
LDSToronto Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Good for you, Kevin. As I mentioned before, it's difficult to go against the grain. Your friend is lucky to have you.H.
Recommended Posts