The Hill Cumorah

[inquiringmind]

(I know there was a topic heading on this before, but I can't find it, and I'd really like to know the Church's answer.)

Was The Hill Cumorah in Up State New York (where Joseph found the plates)?

Is that where the Nephites and Lamanites fought their great battles?

Is there any evidence (and should there be, after all this time)?

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Scott Lloyd]

You will look in vain for "the Church's answer," as the Church takes no official position on this or any other question of specific locales for Book of Mormon events.

Many people have expressed opinions on this topic, but they are only opinions, and none are binding on the Latter-day Saints.

The Church emphasizes the spiritual power and truth of the book rather than concerning itself with the book's geography.

[Robert F. Smith]

(I know there was a topic heading on this before, but I can't find it, and I'd really like to know the Church's answer.)

Was The Hill Cumorah in Up State New York (where Joseph found the plates)?

Is that where the Nephites and Lamanites fought their great battles?

Is there any evidence (and should there be, after all this time)?

Briefly, the original Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon was most likely located in Mesoamerica, and J. L. Sorenson places it specifically at Cerro el Vigia on the Veracruz coast. The hill Joseph describes as the place where he got the plates, breastplate, etc., has been termed "Cumorah" only metaphorically. Joseph himself does not call it such (Joseph Smith History 1:51-52, 59) until much later in life.

All the great events of the Book of Mormon took place in a relatively small region (similar in size to Palestine), and this we know from a careful reading of distances of various journeys within the book.

Finally, only one location in the Western Hemisphere had great, literate civilizations with large populations such as described in the Book of Mormon, and all were located in Mesoamerica. The archeological dates and sequences fit the Book of Mormon cultures extremely well.

This can be a very controversial and speculative issue, upon which one's testimony should not be based -- any more than ancient Near Eastern archeology should justify our acceptance or rejection of the Bible. This issue has been discussed several times on this Board:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56553-non-lds-scholars-speak-out-against-meldrum/

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/54521-where-is-the-bom-cumorah/

[SearchDog]

Yes, Joseph Smith found the Book of Mormon buried atop a hill in upstate NY. The LDS call that place The Hill Cumorah.

No, the final battle recorded in the BOM was not fought there. The prophet Moroni, who was the son of the prophet Mormon, survived the battle and the BOM was buried by him where Joseph Smith found it.

Faith is not based on physical evidence. Truth is self-evident in the words of God as testified by the Spirit of God in us.

Faith is a hope in that which is not seen. Truth is the record left by prophets, which we choose to believe (or not).

Truth is a progression in the word of God. He did not stop talking after Genesis, the OT, or the NT; He did not stop talking after the BOM or the Doctrine and Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price. He speaks today in the priesthood and the modern prophets of the LDS Church. We may settle in to part of the truth along this path and still receive the blessings guaranteed by that portion.

God has set out a feast prepared by prophets. Some partake of all that He offers and they grow according to the Spirit of those words. Others partake yet are unable to digest the meal; these often regurgitate unrecognizable puddles. Still others eat a little and are satisfied without the larger portion. Too many reject the meat of the Gospel in favor of their mother's milk. And at every celebration there are those who become drunk on the words of men, missing His meal all together.

Each to his own. We are all free to choose.

Edited March 31, 2012 by SearchDog

[inquiringmind]

As I asked on another thread, didn't Mormon prophets prophecy that "this land" would be a land of freedom, without a king, and that it would be settled by gentiles who would have to fight gentiles from their mother country?

Wouldn't that make "this land" (i.e. the land where the battle took place) the land of North America?

Could this "land of freedom," "choice above all other lands," really be in Venezuela, Mexico, Columbia, or Peru?

[Scott Lloyd]

As I asked on another thread, didn't Mormon prophets prophecy that "this land" would be a land of freedom, without a king, and that it would be settled by gentiles who would have to fight gentiles from their mother country?

Wouldn't that make "this land" (i.e. the land where the battle took place) the land of North America?

Could this "land of freedom," "choice above all other lands," really be in Venezuela, Mexico, Columbia, or Peru?

What answer did you receive on the other thread?

[inquiringmind]

What answer did you receive on the other thread?

None that I can see.

Would you call Venezuela, or Colombia lands of freedom?

Is anyone sneaking over the border into Mexico?

Could the prophecies given by Mormon prophets in the BOM really apply to any country in central, North, or South America?

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[volgadon]

One could counter by asking where the Maximillian Adventure took place.

[Scott Lloyd]

None that I can see.

Would you call Venezuela, or Colombia lands of freedom?

Is anyone sneaking over the border into Mexico?

Could the prophecies given by Mormon prophets in the BOM really apply to any country in central, North, or South America?

I really don't see a problem. The prophecies could apply in a non-specific sense to the whole of North and South America, even as the events of the Book of Mormon narrative took place at any specific locale within that broad area.

Am I missing something?

Edited March 31, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

As I asked on another thread, didn't Mormon prophets prophecy that "this land" would be a land of freedom, without a king, and that it would be settled by gentiles who would have to fight gentiles from their mother country?

Wouldn't that make "this land" (i.e. the land where the battle took place) the land of North America?

Could this "land of freedom," "choice above all other lands," really be in Venezuela, Mexico, Columbia, or Peru?

Since North America had its share of kings even if some (most) were living elsewhere and since many South America countries had wars of independence, it would seem to be able to be applied equally as well to both North and South.

Edited March 31, 2012 by calmoriah

[Calm]

None that I can see.

Would you call Venezuela, or Colombia lands of freedom?

Is anyone sneaking over the border into Mexico?

Could the prophecies given by Mormon prophets in the BOM really apply to any country in central, North, or South America?

I think a great deal depends on what time period one chooses to place the prophecies in, including the future.

[Scott Lloyd]

Since North America had its share of kings even if some (most) were living elsewhere and since many South America countries had wars of independence, it would seem to be able to be applied equally as well to both North and South.

And don't some of the countries of Central and South America have constitutions that are modeled after the U.S. Constitution, which God has endorsed as being divinely inspired?

[Scott Lloyd]

I think a great deal depends on what time period one chooses to place the prophecies in, including the future.

That had occurred to me as well.

[Calm]

im, you might find the various American (meaning all America, not just the US and Canada) temple dedicatory prayers interesting:

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/temples/

[Bikeemikey]

The legal or illegal migration from Mexico to USA does not seem to be a salient issue as relating to freedom. This migration is economic not political.

Unless we are able to demonstrate such economic superiority is due to "freedom" the interest of immigrants looking for more money should not be confused with people looking - immigrating for greater freedom.

If we were to show the link between freedom and economics there would still be no reason select the USA as most free when compared to countries like brazil and Canada that are seeing greater economic growth than the USA.

Also, there is still no absolute confirmation that the reference to freedom etc was meant to be considered just as a measurement in our time.

If that is the most important link to where the BOM took place how would that even be measureable during other times, eg. 1600ad when the America's were overrun with gentile nations serving kings. How are we meant to understand it in the future when/if the USA is not the power it is today?

Though it should be noted the USA seems to have immigrants looking for both fiscal prosperity and freedom.

(null)

Edited March 31, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[Calm]

As does Canada. One should check the immigration rates of all American countries before making any assumptions....plus demonstrate from the scriptures that such is relevant to the definition of "land of promise", etc.

Edited March 31, 2012 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

I think a great deal depends on what time period one chooses to place the prophecies in, including the future.

That's interesting.

I suppose some of them could apply to the millennium (but why would any land have to be fortified against all other nations during the millennium?)

Here are some of the prophecies that seem (to me) to point to the United States.

But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the ^aGentiles shall be blessed upon the land.

And this land shall be a land of ^aliberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no ^bkings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

And I will fortify this land ^aagainst all other nations. (2 Nephi 10:10-12.)

And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

And it came to pass that I beheld many ^amultitudes of the Gentiles upon the ^bland of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were ^cscattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and ^aobtain the ^bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and ^cbeautiful, like unto my people before they were ^dslain.

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was ^awith them.

And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

against them to battle.

And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were ^a<a href="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/13/19a" title="2 Ne. 10: 10 (10-14); 3 Ne. 21: 4; Ether 2: 12." type="A">delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. (1 Nephi 13:13-19.)

Edited March 31, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Scott Lloyd]

That's interesting.

I suppose some of them could apply to the millennium (but why would any land have to be fortified against all other nations during the millennium?)

Here are some of the prophecies that seem (to me) to point to the United States.

But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the ^aGentiles shall be blessed upon the land.

And this land shall be a land of ^aliberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no ^bkings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

And I will fortify this land ^aagainst all other nations. (2 Nephi 10:10-12.)

And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

And it came to pass that I beheld many ^amultitudes of the Gentiles upon the ^bland of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were ^cscattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and ^aobtain the ^bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and ^cbeautiful, like unto my people before they were ^dslain.

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was ^awith them.

And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together ^a<a href="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/13/18a" title="1 Ne. 17: 35." type="A">against them to battle.

And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were ^adelivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. (1 Nephi 13:13-19.)

As has been pointed out, some nations of South America have also fought wars of independence against Europeans.

And South and Central Americans are descendants of Lehi.

[Villageseer]

I remember reading Vernal Holly's version of the narrow neck of the land being between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie and how allot of the Book Of Mormon places and names are very similar to the area.

Link deleted. Don't link to anti-Mormon websites.

[Bikeemikey]

Inquiring mind.

Everything you have cited could as easily fit the south and central American experience just as it did the north American experience.

In fact. The persecution of the descendants of the BOM started in the south American region and those peoples arguably got it really bad foe a couple of hundred years before north America was even starting to be settled.

That portion of the BON text seems more strongly to favor a south central american location.

(null)

Edited March 31, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[Calm]

I remember reading Vernal Holly's version of the narrow neck of the land being between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie and how allot of the Book Of Mormon places and names are very similar to the area.

http://maxwellinstit...l=1&num=1&id=10

Perhaps the most innovative portion of the study is the section on geography. Several anti-Mormons shouted with glee when they first laid eyes on the map of proposed Book of Mormon lands shown side by side with the map of New England (see figs. 1 and 2), while some LDS scholars looked forward to studying the maps since it seemed that a fresh point of attack worthy of scrutiny had finally reared its head. An exhaustive study of the maps is beyond our purview here.¹⁴ Nonetheless, my general findings are summarized below:

Of the 17 Book of Mormon place names treated by Mr. Holley, nine of them (more than 50%) are mentioned only once or twice in the entire Nephite/Jaredite record. This reveals an effort to try to pinpoint cities which have little or no clue given as to their respective locations from the text of the Book of Mormon itself. Even so, it surprised me to learn that many of the cities on Holley's maps are placed in incorrect relationship to one another.

For instance, Angola and Jacobugath should be north of Zarahemla (Mormon 2:3b-4 and 3 Nephi 7:12a; 9:9a); Alma should be north of Lehi-Nephi (Mosiah 18:30-34; 23:1-4, 19; 24:20, 24-25); Jerusalem should be in the land of Lehi-Nephi (Alma 21:1; 24:1); and Morianton should be on the eastern borders of the land southward (Alma 50:28-34; 51:26). Mr. Holley has altered these locational relationships in every instance. Furthermore, he displays a glaring inconsistency in his treatment of the river Sidon. On his maps, he sees a parallel between this river and the Genesee River, yet on pages 14-15 he draws a parallel between the river Sidon and the Ohio River.

Other pertinent questions surface when considering just how original the place names are. For instance, several of the Book of Mormon place names appear in the Bible. These include Ephraim (2 Samuel 13:23), Ramah (Joshua 19:36), and, of course, Jerusalem. If the author of the Book of Mormon were given to pilfering, why would he need the Manuscript Story when the Bible would serve just as well?

It is also important to note that some of the New England cities were not even incorporated entities prior to 1830. Angola was incorporated in 1873,¹⁵ and in Monroe County, Ohio, Jerusalem's post office wasn't established until January 8, 1850. Thus, Mr. Holley's claim that such places were known in the neighborhood of Joseph Smith is chronologically misinformed. Finally, to draw etymological parallels between "Jacobugath" and "Jacobsburg," or "Shurr" and "Sherbrooke" is to strain one's credulity.¹⁶

Edited March 31, 2012 by calmoriah

[inquiringmind]

One could counter by asking where the Maximillian Adventure took place.

Mexico.

But didn't they have more than one war of independence, followed by a long history of dictatorships, revolutions, short lived democracies, and new dictatorships?

[zerinus]

That's interesting.

I suppose some of them could apply to the millennium (but why would any land have to be fortified against all other nations during the millennium?)

Here are some of the prophecies that seem (to me) to point to the United States.

But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the ^aGentiles shall be blessed upon the land.

And this land shall be a land of ^aliberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no ^bkings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.

And I will fortify this land ^aagainst all other nations. (2 Nephi 10:10-12.)

And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

And it came to pass that I beheld many ^amultitudes of the Gentiles upon the ^bland of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were ^cscattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and ^aobtain the ^bland for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and ^cbeautiful, like unto my people before they were ^dslain.

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was ^awith them.

And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

against them to battle.

And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were ^a<a href="http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/13/19a" title="2 Ne. 10: 10 (10-14); 3 Ne. 21: 4; Ether 2: 12." type="A">delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations. (1 Nephi 13:13-19.)

I agree that those passages appear for the most part to speak of the US; but I believe that what in the Book of Mormon is referred to as the "land of promise" and "promised land," or more often simply as "this land," refer to all of North and South America; except that all of that land is not going to follow an identical history at the same time. Parts of it may be liberated from despotism and dictatorship sooner than other parts. But the ultimate destiny of all the land is to become the Zion of God, where freedom and liberty will fully prevail. Your difficulty appears to be that you are looking at an isolated passage in the Book of Mormon relating to this subject. I did a search, and found that the expressions "this land," "land of promise," and "promised land" are all used in the Book of Mormon (and the D&C) in varying degrees to refer to the same subject. "this land" occurs 72 times in the BOM and 28 times in the D&C; "land of promise" occurs 24 times in the BOM and 3 times in the D&C; and "promised land" occurs 21 times in the BOM and does not occur elsewhere. If you study all of those verses carefully in their contexts (see the links I have provided), it becomes clear that while some of them appear to be referring specifically tot he United States; others suggest a broader meaning.

Edited March 31, 2012 by zerinus

[inquiringmind]

I agree that those passages appear for the most part to speak of the US; but I believe that what in the Book of Mormon is referred to as the "land of promise" and "promised land," or more often simply as "this land," refer to all of North and South America; except that all of that land is not going to follow an identical history at the same time. Parts of it may be liberated from despotism and dictatorship sooner than other parts. But the ultimate destiny of all the land is to become the Zion of God, where freedom and liberty will fully prevail. Your difficulty appears to be that you are looking at an isolated passage in the Book of Mormon relating to this subject. I did a search, and found that the expressions "this land," "land of promise," and "promised land" are all used in the Book of Mormon (and the D&C) in varying degrees to refer to the same subject. "this land" occurs 72 times in the BOM and 28 times in the D&C; "land of promise" occurs 24 times in the BOM and 3 times in the D&C; and "promised land" occurs 21 times in the BOM and does not occur elsewhere. If you study all of those verses carefully in their contexts (see the links I have provided), it becomes clear that while some of them appear to be referring specifically tot he United States; others suggest a broader meaning.

Thank you Zerinus.

[orion88]

Was The Hill Cumorah in Up State New York (where Joseph found the plates)?

Is that where the Nephites and Lamanites fought their great battles?

Yes, as evidenced by some teachings of the LDS Church. This is fully documented by

Utah Lighthouse Ministry - which also includes a scanned image of a letter from the

First Presidency.

Edited April 1, 2012 by orion88