A Joseph F. Smith Quote Timely For This Election Year

[Cobalt-70]

Saying modern Mormons live in an "imagined state of persecution" is misinformation. That was the misinformation I was referring to. Yours.

I have to agree with Xander that the idea of modern-day persecution against Mormons is imagined. There is no real persecution anymore in the United States. Not since 1890. There is still prejudice, however. There is also persecution in some foreign countries, but it is the same persecution that is shared by all Christians in those countries.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[volgadon]

I have to agree with Xander that the idea of modern-day persecution against Mormons is imagined. There is no real persecution anymore. Not since 1890. There is still prejudice, however.

Perhaps not as much in the USA, but I have seen it in Eastern Europe quite a bit.

[Scott Lloyd]

It is hard to say that Smith's death was the result of religious persecution. The anger was apparently more political than religious.

There were religious and political elements to the mob oppression inflicted upon the Mormons, but it is very much a myopic oversimplification to say the violence had political and not religious causes. The persecution bled over into Illinois from the turbulence of Missouri. The Mormons as a people took steps to protect themselves from what had been a pattern of persecution from the beginning, persecution with religious bigotry at its root, and for that, their enemies falsely accused them of acting above the law.

The Nauvoo Legion, for example, was a state-chartered town militia. Town militias were common in that era of American history, very much a part of everyday life, yet the Church's antagonists then and now give the existence of the Legion as an excuse for the oppression inflicted upon the Saints.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[blueadept]

Atheists have a much, much harder time obtaining office than do Mormons.

I disagree with this statement. With the desire of the separation of Church and State being as high as it is as well as being a secular nation as much as we are now, it's not unreasonable IMO to have an atheist obtain the presidency. One of the parties are trying to make SSM one of the planks. Atheism doesn't seem like much of a stretch anymore.

Edited March 9, 2012 by blueadept

[thesometimesaint]

Cobalt70:

The House and Senate can of course set any rules they choose for allowing a seat. That is not the question. The question is does the Constitution allow for using a Religious test for any office of Trust. It clearly does not.

Given that the Treaty of Tripoli clearly rejects the idea that this is a "Christian" nation, and that it is based on any religion at all. Europe had a thousand years of bloody sectarian wars, excluding people from society on the basis of the religion of the King/Queen/Caesar/Emperor. The English colonies had their own problems with religious liberty, starting with Roger Williams. The founders were well aware of history. What possible justification is there to exclude Mormons from governance soley on the basis of their religion?

[Sanpitch]

Article Six of the United States Constitution

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Except when it comes to Mormons?

Well, don't cry yourself to sleep every night. What chance do you think an atheist, a muslim, a hindu or many other small groups represented in the USofA would have in running for a major political office?

[Gervin]

Well, don't cry yourself to sleep every night. What chance do you think an atheist, a muslim, a hindu or many other small groups represented in the USofA would have in running for a major political office?

Right. It's not like there could ever be a woman with a name like Nimrata Randhawa and born a Sikh could ever be elected to a position like, say, governor, in a place like the deep south. Just won't ever happen.

[thesometimesaint]

Sanpatch:

I sleep very well thank you. There are a couple of Muslims in the House of Representatives. I know of none in the Senate, and none as President. Ever hear of Nikki Haley or Piyush "Bobby" Jindal? Would I like to see more? Yes. Just as I'd like to see more women, and minority religion/ethnic/racial representation in high public office. What I object to is the exclusion of otherwise well qualified people based on some arbitrary reason.

Thomas Jefferson was accused of being an Atheist. He seemed to do a pretty good job as President. I doesn't bother me if he was or wasn't an Atheist. I'm more interested in what they do while in office than their religion.

[KevinG]

I have to agree with Xander that the idea of modern-day persecution against Mormons is imagined. There is no real persecution anymore in the United States. Not since 1890. There is still prejudice, however. There is also persecution in some foreign countries, but it is the same persecution that is shared by all Christians in those countries.

Please show me a quote where Mormons claim to be persecuted in our day - in particular LDS church leaders and/or apologists. That was the red herring I was calling him out on. I agree we aren't persecuted today.

[thesometimesaint]

KevinG:

I'll slightly disagree. There is no doubt that the Saints today are experiencing nothing like the earlier Saints did. However persecution is not a definite term meaning exclusively physical threats to life, limb, and/or property. It can also include preventing someone from practicing their religion as they choose, picketing at their houses of worship, unnecesary burdensom regulations, publically mocking some one/some group because of their religious beliefs.

[KevinG]

I guess we experience some things like unto persecution - but that is a pretty charged word.

The point that I was trying to make (and appearantly failing at) is that Xander is accusing us of having a persecution complex and failing to show evidence of such a complex.

It is a standard Anti-mormon red herring, when we step up to defend ourselves from calumny we are accused of having a persecution complex then told we shouldn't be so reactionary.

[Tepui]

I always considered Ether 9:11 to be applicable to Elections. "GIVE ME FREE MONEY!"

[The Nehor]

I disagree with this statement. With the desire of the separation of Church and State being as high as it is as well as being a secular nation as much as we are now, it's not unreasonable IMO to have an atheist obtain the presidency. One of the parties are trying to make SSM one of the planks. Atheism doesn't seem like much of a stretch anymore.

Yes, it does. An atheist would be unelectable as President right now. In a few decades I expect this to shift but right now this is reality. The misgivings evangelicals have towards Romney would be nothing compared to their reaction to an atheist candidate.

[thesometimesaint]

KevinG:

It is also dismissive.. It is in effect blaming the victim.

[Scott Lloyd]

KevinG:

It is also dismissive.. It is in effect blaming the victim.

It (accusing Mormons of imagined persecution) is juvenile -- like schoolyard taunting.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Cobalt-70]

There were religious and political elements to the mob oppression inflicted upon the Mormons, but it is very much a myopic oversimplification to say the violence had political and not religious causes. The persecution bled over into Illinois from the turbulence of Missouri. The Mormons as a people took steps to protect themselves from what had been a pattern of persecution from the beginning, persecution with religious bigotry at its root, and for that, their enemies falsely accused them of acting above the law.

I didn't say there was no religious reasons for the animosity against Joseph Smith. I just said that the hatred and distrust of Smith was mainly a political issue that did not extend to persecution against Mormons as a people. It was against Smith himself, mainly because they believed he was abusing his political power. Only later did the persecution against Mormons in general really begin, which led to their expulsion from Nauvoo two years after Smith's death.

The Nauvoo Legion, for example, was a state-chartered town militia. Town militias were common in that era of American history, very much a part of everyday life, yet the Church's antagonists then and now give the existence of the Legion as an excuse for the oppression inflicted upon the Saints.

The Nauvoo Legion was very special. Nothing like it had existed before in frontier America, and it was the largest concentration of military power in the West, and almost a third the size of the entire U.S. Army. Because of the very favorable Nauvoo city charter which Smith secured based on sympathy that resulted from the Missouri war and explusion, Joseph Smith had nearly autonomous control over it. And Smith used the Legion to protect himself from being arrested and extradited to Missouri, from which he remained a fugitive. He also used it to enforce martial law in Nauvoo after his administration put down the Expositor.

[Cobalt-70]

Yes, it does. An atheist would be unelectable as President right now. In a few decades I expect this to shift but right now this is reality. The misgivings evangelicals have towards Romney would be nothing compared to their reaction to an atheist candidate.

An openly atheist person can't even get elected to Congress now. At least nobody in the current Congress admits they are atheist (yet there are numerous Mormons and even a couple Muslims). http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/01/where-are-the-atheists-in-congress/69010/ There is no way that the U.S. would elect an openly atheist president.

[thesometimesaint]

Cobalt70:

So in your mind Gov. Boggs extermination order was after JS murder.

[Pahoran]

If Romney loses to Obama, and he probably will, I predict an onslaught of Mormon indignation like never before. We're going to hear all kinds of excuses about how he lost because he was Mormon. Four years ago Dan Peterson tried to blame Mike Huckabee when Romney lost the nomination, for saying something about LDS doctrine. I forget what it was.

Sure you do.

In a cute pose of wide-eyed innocence that you would be proud of if you could pull it off, the Huckster asked a reporter, "Don't Mormons think Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?"

Remember now?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Scott Lloyd]

I didn't say there was no religious reasons for the animosity against Joseph Smith. I just said that the hatred and distrust of Smith was mainly a political issue that did not extend to persecution against Mormons as a people. It was against Smith himself, mainly because they believed he was abusing his political power. Only later did the persecution against Mormons in general really begin, which led to their expulsion from Nauvoo two years after Smith's death.

The persecution of Mormons as a people didn't begin then. It continued a pattern that had been carried on wherever the Latter-day Saints had tried to make a home. And the persecution continued because the Church did not dissolve immediately upon the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, as the enemies of the Church had hoped. If they were only after Joseph Smith, why didn't they leave the people alone after he was murdered?

The Nauvoo Legion was very special. Nothing like it had existed before in frontier America, and it was the largest concentration of military power in the West, and almost a third the size of the entire U.S. Army.

It was a state-chartered militia formed for protection and security, just like other town militias of the day. That it was large and that recruiting was successful is not in and of itself an indictment so much as a testament to the solidarity of the Mormon people in the face of oppression.

Because of the very favorable Nauvoo city charter which Smith secured based on sympathy that resulted from the Missouri war and explusion, Joseph Smith had nearly autonomous control over it.

Given the outrageous deprivation of human rights to which the Mormons had been subjected, there was good reason for the sympathy. Joseph was the duly elected general. If the Legion was so uncontrollable, how do you account for the fact that the members unhesitatingly turned over their state-issued arms to Gov. Ford upon demand while the Prophet was in jail, his life in peril from mobs that Ford was powerless to control?

And Smith used the Legion to protect himself from being arrested and extradited to Missouri, from which he remained a fugitive.

The Legion enforced the legal measures that were enacted as protection from spurious charges and oppression from Missouri mobs abetted by the state's government.

He also used it to enforce martial law in Nauvoo after his administration put down the Expositor.

The martial law was to protect the townspeople from the very mobs that eventually killed Joseph and Hyrum while they were under the supposed protection of the governor of the state. Again, the arms were delivered up to Ford the moment he demanded them.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Cobalt-70]

Cobalt70:

So in your mind Gov. Boggs extermination order was after JS murder.

No, I was talking about the expulsion from Nauvoo in 1846, not the expulsion from Missouri in 1838-39, both of which were, in my view, clear acts of persecution against Mormons.

[Cobalt-70]

The persecution of Mormons as a people didn't begin then. It continued a pattern that had been carried on wherever the Latter-day Saints had tried to make a home. And the persecution continued because the Church did not dissolve immediately upon the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, as the enemies of the Church had hoped. If they were only after Joseph Smith, why didn't they leave the people alone after he was murdered?

There were periods of persecution at various times. As you said, some people thought that the issues would go away when Smith died. That tells you that it was not a matter of religious prosecution, but anger against Smith himself. But it didn't take long for the animosity that had been focused on Smith to be re-focused on Mormons in general. It was inevitable given the political mess that Smith had made of things in the final months before he died, and Brigham Young didn't help things by stepping so well politically into Smith's shoes.

Given the outrageous deprivation of human rights to which the Mormons had been subjected, there was good reason for the sympathy. Joseph was the duly elected general. If the Legion was so uncontrollable, how do you account for the fact that the members unhesitatingly turned over their state-issued arms to Gov. Ford upon demand while the Prophet was in jail, his life in peril from mobs that Ford was powerless to control?

Because Smith ordered them to stand down.

The martial law was to protect the townspeople from the very mobs that eventually killed Joseph and Hyrum while they were under the supposed protection of the governor of the state. Again, the arms were delivered up to Ford the moment he demanded them.

But martial law would have been unnecessary had Smith's administration not destroyed the Nauvoo Expositor. And it was Smith, as commander of the Legion, who submitted the Legion to Ford. Yet after having second thoughts, Smith issued an order that the Legion come and rescue him from Carthage jail (an order that was disobeyed by Smith's second-in-command as a judgment call, but not out of any deference to Ford). That tells you that the Governor was not really in charge of the Legion.

[Scott Lloyd]

But martial law would have been unnecessary had Smith's administration not destroyed the Nauvoo Expositor.

It's a chicken-or-the-egg controversy. Destruction of the Expositor might not have been deemed necessary were it not for festering mob aggression on the outside exacerbated by the treachery of the apostates inside of Nauvoo.

And it was Smith, as commander of the Legion, who submitted the Legion to Ford.

He had no legal choice. As governor, Ford already had ultimate authority over the Nauvoo Legion and every other local militia in Illinois. It was the same command structure that exists today with the governor of a state being commander-in-chief over any National Guard unit within that state.

Because Smith ordered them to stand down.

They turned over the arms because Joseph and his people respected the rule of law.

Yet after having second thoughts, Smith issued an order that the Legion come and rescue him from Carthage jail (an order that was disobeyed by Smith's second-in-command as a judgment call, but not out of any deference to Ford).

There is little substance in support of this rumor and much to discount it. See this article on the FAIR website.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

There were periods of persecution at various times. As you said, some people thought that the issues would go away when Smith died. That tells you that it was not a matter of religious prosecution, but anger against Smith himself.

It only tells me that the mobocrats and bigots underestimated the dedication, commitment, unity and resolve of the Mormon people.

Ultimately, the Mormons triumphed, returning to the city, gradually buying up property and eventually rebuilding the temple the mobs desecrated and then destroyed.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Scott Lloyd