Ishmael And The Priesthood

[Grundelwalken]

I have searched the past discussions and cannot find anything relating to this question so I thought I would present it to the forum for help in understanding.

Studying Galatians 4 led me to Paul's explanation of the Law of Moses and the new covenant. Using Isaac and Ishmael as examples, he shows the difference between each law. My question has a corollary connection to Paul's explanation.

Ishmael was the oldest son of Abraham, though not considered by God or Abraham to be the covenant son (unless you follow the Muslim line of thought). Does that mean he did NOT hold the priesthood?

Searching through manuals, etc. I find vague references that might indicate he did receive an ordination. There was also one blogger that reported someone's thought that Keturah (Abraham's wife after Sarah died) was really Hagar with her name changed because she entered the covenant after Sarah died (I find that a little hard to believe). But very little is said about Ishmael and his right to hold the authority of God.

One hint that leads me to believe he did is in the story of Jacob and Esau. When Esau married his first two wives (Gen. 26:34-35), his parents were broken-hearted because he married outside the covenant. But later, after he had matured somewhat, Esau married "Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael..." (Gen. 28:9) and there was no negative reaction from his parents. In my mind, this MAY have indicated that Esau had married in the covenant and thus that wife, a descendant of Ishmael, was raised in a priesthood home. The connection may be a little thin but it is there.

Abraham loved Ishmael and it is hard for me to believe that he would not offer to him as many of the blessings of the gospel as were available. Thus, in my personal beliefs, it would seem proper to consider that Ishmael held the priesthood and was able to bless his own family. Anyone have anything to confirm or deny these things. MW

[volgadon]

One hint that leads me to believe he did is in the story of Jacob and Esau. When Esau married his first two wives (Gen. 26:34-35), his parents were broken-hearted because he married outside the covenant. But later, after he had matured somewhat, Esau married "Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael..." (Gen. 28:9) and there was no negative reaction from his parents. In my mind, this MAY have indicated that Esau had married in the covenant and thus that wife, a descendant of Ishmael, was raised in a priesthood home. The connection may be a little thin but it is there.

Or they might have been happy that at least it was the daughter of a relative.

[katherine the great]

What exactly was priesthood function during the time of the Patriarchs? I've sat through discussions in Gospel Doctrine where people say things like "members of the church" and "temple marriage" while referring to Patriarchal times. I don't think there really was a "church" as we experience it now--people lived in family groups and tribes and worshiped within those settings. Since Ishmael was the son of Abraham, unless he was completely disinherited, it seems like he would have retained that affiliation. Whether that translates into "Priesthood" power or not, I can't say, but I would guess yes. Didn't Moses receive the priesthood from one of Ishmael's descendants?

[The Nehor]

Didn't Moses receive the priesthood from one of Ishmael's descendants?

As I understand it Jethro's Priesthood came through the children of Abraham's last wife, Keturah.

[katherine the great]

As I understand it Jethro's Priesthood came through the children of Abraham's last wife, Keturah.

Hmmm. Maybe you're right. And yet the terms "Ishmaelite" and "Midianite" are sometimes used interchangeably in Genesis.

[katherine the great]

Searching through manuals, etc. I find vague references that might indicate he did receive an ordination. There was also one blogger that reported someone's thought that Keturah (Abraham's wife after Sarah died) was really Hagar with her name changed because she entered the covenant after Sarah died (I find that a little hard to believe). But very little is said about Ishmael and his right to hold the authority of God.

One hint that leads me to believe he did is in the story of Jacob and Esau. When Esau married his first two wives (Gen. 26:34-35), his parents were broken-hearted because he married outside the covenant.

I had another thought about this. Why is it assumed that Rachel and Leah were somehow "in the covenant" before their marriage to Jacob? Is it assumed that their idol worshipping father Laban was a righteous priesthood holder? Did the covenant that God made with Abraham extend laterally as well as to his offspring? I'm currently studying kinship relationships in human societies, and it seems much more likely to me that Jacob's cousin marriages were approved because of kinship reasons and not related in any way to the priesthood (which to my eyes was much different in form and function than we have today in it's fullness.) I don't recall the scriptures mentioning anything about disapproval from Isaac either. It seems like the disapproval of local girls came solely from Rebecca. As to Ketura being the same person as Hagar, it's definitely food for thought. It would explain why the Midianites and the Ishmaelites were sometimes considered the same people if they had a common ancestress as well as ancestor. If it were the case though, it seems like the Bible would have explained this.

[Grundelwalken]

I don't recall the scriptures mentioning anything about disapproval from Isaac either. It seems like the disapproval of local girls came solely from Rebecca.

I think this verse says they both were disappointed.

Genesis 26:32-33:

And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite: Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.

As to you other point about WHY the rest of the family was considered better than the Canaanites: I don't know why Rebekah was considered in the covenant except for the familial relationship. Maybe it was that Abraham had taught his brother's family the gospel and they continued to be associated with what he had taught.

It is apparent in the scriptures that Rebekah's family may not have all been completely committed (your mentioned the idols and also witness Laban as he dealt with her son) but the gospel was apparently taught in the home to some degree. Thus the blessing as she left to join Isaac:

And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them. (Gen. 24:60)

These blessings correlate very well with the covenant of Abraham and seem to have been taught in his relatives family.

Anyway, back on topic:

Thanks for your support in believing that Abraham would be just as loving with Ishmael as he was with Isaac, even though the covenant was not passed through him (Ishmael). I have tried to look at this as a father would and I can't see how I could deny any of my children those blessings, even if they weren't to receive the birthright. Without any evidence to the contrary I guess I will continue to believe that Ishmael was a priesthood holder. MW

[katherine the great]

I have tried to look at this as a father would and I can't see how I could deny any of my children those blessings, even if they weren't to receive the birthright. Without any evidence to the contrary I guess I will continue to believe that Ishmael was a priesthood holder. MW

Their world was so very different than ours that I think it's a mistake to try to look at ancient people through our modern eyes, but I can't imagine that the parental instincts have changed that much over time. I think it's very clear that Abraham loved Ishmael, and was devastated when Sarah insisted Hagar and Ishmael be sent way. The priesthood issue is just sort of a mystery to me. The Melchizedek priesthood is so absent from the Old Testament (other than Melchizedek himself) that I think the belief that it even existed is really unique to us, and I don't think we really know much about how (and to whom) it was passed on. If it really was a common ordinance, I don't really understand why it's never talked about.

[Lightbearer]

.Didn't Moses receive the priesthood from one of Ishmael's descendants?

According to the D&C Moses received the priesthood through the following:

"And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father–in–law, Jethro; And Jethro received it under the hand of Caleb; And Caleb received it under the hand of Elihu; And Elihu under the hand of Jeremy; And Jeremy under the hand of Gad; And Gad under the hand of Esaias; And Esaias received it under the hand of God. Esaias also lived in the days of Abraham, and was blessed of him— Which Abraham received the priesthood from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till Noah; And from Noah till Enoch, through the lineage of their fathers; And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man— Which priesthood continueth in the church of God in all generations, and is without beginning of days or end of years."(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 84:6 - 17)

[katherine the great]

According to the D&C Moses received the priesthood through the following:

Did I read that wrong or did it say that Esias received the priesthood directly from God? Or is it indirectly saying that he received it from Abraham?

[Maidservant]

I start with the presumption that Ishmael would have had any priesthood, or the same priesthood, as Isaac or any son of Abraham. I do believe Ishmael was circumcised as well (?), so again, same covenant. I would have to be shown the opposite, that there was a reason he did not have the priesthood. One importance of Isaac was not as much his descent from Abraham, but his descent from Sarah (so that Sarah could have the privilege of being the lineage of the Savior; and also a type of the covenant in the Garden of Eden with the woman, that through her seed, the head of the serpent would be crushed). It's about having authority with God similarly as worthy men possess priesthood today (in LDS), as not only did Abraham's children, but I imagine any male in his household that believed would also have had the priesthood, for example Eliezar his servant.

[orion88]

Ishmael was the oldest son of Abraham, though not considered by God or Abraham to be the covenant son (unless you follow the Muslim line of thought). Does that mean he did NOT hold the priesthood?

Galatians 4:23,29 says, "But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but

he of the freewoman was by promise ... But as then he that was born after the flesh

persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."

Ishmael was born after the flesh while Isaac was born of the Spirit.

God did not establish the covenant with Ishmael.

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful,

and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great

nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this

set time in the next year" (Genesis 17:20-21).

As for the priesthood, the Levites held it - the other tribes did not.

[katherine the great]

As for the priesthood, the Levites held it - the other tribes did not.

This was long before the establishment of the Levitical priesthood.