Feminist Inroads Into Mormonism

[Jeff K.]

Maybe I'm thinking of different shows than you guys are, but I'm thinking of Raymond and Tim Taylor and possibly Doug Heffernan. They are kind of doafy, but still very lovable, and they have very healthy relationships with their wives. They are really kind of exaggerated versions of real people. Their wives are great, but can be total nags and bee_otches. The humor works.

Being dumb or dopey is not a healthy relationship. If Tim's wife were portrayed as Tim was, it would be viewed as demeaning to women. The wives invariably come out looking wiser, smarter and more canny in the relationships. As such, is it a healthy model for boys and young men? Do we want them to be working dogs that are not too bright, not too insightful, rarely if ever right? Just like any prevalent trend, it does and will continue to influence succeeding generations.

[katherine the great]

Being dumb or dopey is not a healthy relationship. If Tim's wife were portrayed as Tim was, it would be viewed as demeaning to women. The wives invariably come out looking wiser, smarter and more canny in the relationships. As such, is it a healthy model for boys and young men? Do we want them to be working dogs that are not too bright, not too insightful, rarely if ever right? Just like any prevalent trend, it does and will continue to influence succeeding generations.

I think you're overreacting.

[LeSellers]

Do we want [boys and young men] to be working dogs that are not too bright, not too insightful, rarely if ever right? Just like any prevalent trend, it does and will continue to influence succeeding generations.

I think you're overreacting.

Whatever the goal, the effect is just what Jeff hypothesizes. For instance, how many men are going to college compared to women? How many graduate degrees are men earning compared to women? (And the discrepancy is far, far worse among most minorities. It's also interesting to see which degrees get all the female attention.)

In 2005, there were 15 million men v. 14.2 million women 18~24 in USmerica (Census Bureau). Country wide, though, the male/female ratio on campus is 43%/57%. Among Black USmericans, it's even worse.

female/male enrollment percentages at some HBCUs:

Fisk University: 72% female, 28% male

Tuskegee University: 60% female, 40% male

Clark Atlanta University: 72% female, 26% male

Morris Brown College: 59% female, 41% male

Hampton University--60% female, 40% male

Florida A&M University: 56% female, 44% male

St. Paul's College--63% female, 37% male

Virginia State University: 58% female, 42% male

Virginia Union University: 58% female, 42% male

North Carolina Central University--63% female, 37% male

North Carolina A&T University: 51% female, 49% male

St. Augustine's College: 58% female, 42% male

Bethune Cookman College--57% female, 43% male

Lincoln University--57% female, 43% male

Dillard University--78% female, 28% male

Xavier University: 71% female, 29% male

Howard University: 63% female, 37% male

Central State University: 57% female, 43% male

South Carolina State University: 58% female, 42% male

Voorhees College: 65% female, 35% male

Bowie State University: 62% female, 38% male

Morgan State University: 59% female, 41% male

University of Maryland at Eastern Shore: 58% female, 42% male

Alcorn State University: 60% female, 40% male

Jackson State University: 59% female, 41% male

Rust College: 58% female, 42% male

Toogaloo College: 68% female, 32% male

Grambling State University: 55% female, 45% male

Shaw University: 63% female, 37% male

Winston-Salem State University: 66% female, 33% male

LeMoyne-Owens: 68% female, 32% male

Alabama State University: 55% female, 45% male

Miles College: 56% females, 44% male

Stillman College--66% female, 34% male

Southern University: 67% female, 33% male

Elizabeth City State University--63% female, 37% male

Lehi

[katherine the great]

Whatever the goal, the effect is just what Jeff hypothesizes. For instance, how many men are going to college compared to women? How many graduate degrees are men earning compared to women? (And the discrepancy is far, far worse among most minorities. It's also interesting to see which degrees get all the female attention.)

In 2005, there were 15 million men v. 14.2 million women 18~24 in USmerica (Census Bureau). Country wide, though, the male/female ratio on campus is 43%/57%. Among Black USmericans, it's even worse.

Lehi

I think you're overreacting too. Besides, I thought you always said that a college education is overrated.

[Jeff K.]

I think you're overreacting.

We all know that its women who over-react, oh but wait if I say it in a comedy setting, then its ok. Toss in laughtrack with the same sentence.

Your statement was dismissive, even though my presentation was accurate. If Tim Taylors wife in "Home Improvement" were seen to be an incompetent mother who burns food, can't seem to operate the kitchen well, constantly overlooks the feelings of her kids, and is generally considered self centered to the point of being blind to the needs around her, except of course for her loving and patient husband who tries to keep from from accidently killing herself. Would you over react and call the "sitcom" sexist or would just sit back and say, it was really funny?

[Jeff K.]

I think you're overreacting too. Besides, I thought you always said that a college education is overrated.

Ok cue laughtrack "only for women".

Do you get my point yet?

[LeSellers]

I think you're overreacting too. Besides, I thought you always said that a college education is overrated.

If I am overreacting, I'm far from alone. A very large number of academics are concerned, as are countless bureaucrats and others who hold power over us. It was largely their fault in the first place (and, I believe they secretly know it, but will not admit it).

As to whether a college degree has any value, it is not a good economic decision to get a degree, because it's vastly overrated. The financial cost of getting a degree overweighs the financial value it returns. Were we to take twins, equally well educated to that point (say, educated within their families by their parents), and send one to college, and the other directly into the workplace, by the time the college-doomed student gets to earn his first pay check, his brother has earned more than three hundred thousand dollars, while he, himself, is in debt for one hundred thousand dollars. The working man has four (or six) years of experience, and has had several raises and promotions. He is a proven asset to his boss (or, quite possibly, is his own boss by that time), and earning the same money as his twin. The second brother will never catch up to him, and has the added drag of having to pay off the loans that got him through "school".

A degree has no value at all in the job market after the graduate has held his first job. The job record swamps all other considerations. "Can you do the job?" (meaning, "will you make me money?") is the only question an employer really cares about.

But, as a measure of "progress" or "equality" a degree has one use: all college degrees are counted (rightly or not) as equal. If men and women had roughly the same levels of academic achievement, we could say they are treated equally by "society". But, as there is such an enormous discrepancy, it is obvious that women have the upper hand in many areas that lead, eventually, to college.

Lehi

Edited January 12, 2012 by LeSellers

[katherine the great]

We all know that its women who over-react, oh but wait if I say it in a comedy setting, then its ok. Toss in laughtrack with the same sentence.

Your statement was dismissive, even though my presentation was accurate. If Tim Taylors wife in "Home Improvement" were seen to be an incompetent mother who burns food, can't seem to operate the kitchen well, constantly overlooks the feelings of her kids, and is generally considered self centered to the point of being blind to the needs around her, except of course for her loving and patient husband who tries to keep from from accidently killing herself. Would you over react and call the "sitcom" sexist or would just sit back and say, it was really funny?

Oh, you mean like Lucy Ricardo? YES! I thought I Love Lucy was obcenely hilarious fun!!!! It never ONCE made me think that all redheads are airheads or that all women are scatterbrained goofballs or that all men were Cuban. Sheesh! You seriously need to chill out a bit.

[katherine the great]

If I am overreacting, I'm far from alone. A very large number of academics are concerned, as are countless bureaucrats and others who hold power over us. It was largely their fault in the first place (and, I believe they secretly know it, but will not admit it).

As to whether a college degree has any value, it is not a good economic decision to get a degree, because it's vastly overrated. The financial cost of getting a degree overweighs the financial value it returns. Were we to take twins, equally well educated to that point, (say, educated within their families by their parents) and send one to college, and the other directly into the workplace, by the time the college-doomed student gets to earn his first pay check, his brother has earned more than three hundred thousand dollars, while he, himself, is in debt for one hundred thousand dollars. The working man has four (or six) years of experience, and has had several raises and promotions. He is a proven asset to his boss (or, quite possibly, is his own boss by that time), and earning the same money as his twin. The second brother will never catch up to him, and has the added drag of having to pay off the loans that got him through "school".

But, as a measure of "progress" or "equality" a degree has one use: all college degrees are counted (rightly or not) as equal. If men and women had roughly the same levels of academic achievement, we could say they are treated equally by "society". But, as there is such an enormous discrepancy, it is obvious that women have the upper hand in many areas that lead, eventually, to college.

Lehi

I dunno. I'm not a huge fan of academics or bureaucrats in general (with some notable exceptions.) Maybe women are just finally get a well deserved piece of the pie, and that disturbs a certain type of man. The men in my life are thriving, so I guess I don't see it from my perspective.

[Jeff K.]

Oh, you mean like Lucy Ricardo? YES! I thought I Love Lucy was obcenely hilarious fun!!!! It never ONCE made me think that all redheads are airheads or that all women are scatterbrained goofballs or that all men were Cuban. Sheesh! You seriously need to chill out a bit.

I didn't. I thought it demeaned women, made them out to be self centered, selfish and unable to make the right choice. The fact it made people laugh does not negate its demeaning attitude towards women, anymore than Amos and Andy did or "The Book of Mormon" play. I feel I need to be consistent across the board on this one.

[Deborah]

Seriously, guys, women have been put down for centuries (any fans of Jane Austen?). They still are in many cultures. The pendulum when it swings always goes too far in either direction until it finally reaches that happy medium.

I don't disagree that fathers aren't shown in a very positive light in many of our sitcoms. But men do have a different way of looking at things than women do and I think the exaggerations of that can be very funny. I don't think we should be offended but be able to laugh at ourselves. After all blondes have been portrayed as bimbos for years and as has been pointed out Gracie Allen was portrayed as very dumb but we all loved her and knew her husband loved her.

My own son is teased by his family for his idiosyncracies, and it would make for a very funny show. I could tell you about the couch incident and you would be in stitches laughing. But his wife and seven kids adore him and know when he's serious about something he means it.

Feminism has played its part in the past in getting us past some of the hurdles of inequality. I think feminists are losing their power now and are trying to get it back, but I think most women recognize the radicals for who they are and though they appreciate what has been done in the past don't get carried away with some of the more far-out ideas of the present.

[Jeff K.]

I dunno. I'm not a huge fan of academics or bureaucrats in general (with some notable exceptions.) Maybe women are just finally get a well deserved piece of the pie, and that disturbs a certain type of man. The men in my life are thriving, so I guess I don't see it from my perspective.

If the pie were a set piece where a piece of the pie means someone else had to lose, your logic makes sense. But when men and women respect each other it is different, and pie, as you see it, suddenly has plenty for both parties. Do we need to demean one gender or another to get that piece of the pie? And if I might paraphrase a statement elsewhere... when does the "banter" putting down men or women turn into a demeaning tirade for you? IN other words at what point do you believe it is no longer acceptable to make fun of one group of people or another?

[katherine the great]

I didn't. I thought it demeaned women, made them out to be self centered, selfish and unable to make the right choice. The fact it made people laugh does not negate its demeaning attitude towards women, anymore than Amos and Andy did or "The Book of Mormon" play. I feel I need to be consistent across the board on this one.

So it somehow made you think that the character of Lucy represented all women? I think that is absurd. Do you ever laugh and have fun?

[Jeff K.]

Seriously, guys, women have been put down for centuries (any fans of Jane Austen?). They still are in many cultures. The pendulum when it swings always goes too far in either direction until it finally reaches that happy medium.

I don't disagree that fathers aren't shown in a very positive light in many of our sitcoms. But men do have a different way of looking at things than women do and I think the exaggerations of that can be very funny. I don't think we should be offended but be able to laugh at ourselves. After all blondes have been portrayed as bimbos for years and as has been pointed out Gracie Allen was portrayed as very dumb but we all loved her and knew her husband loved her.

My own son is teased by his family for his idiosyncracies, and it would make for a very funny show. I could tell you about the couch incident and you would be in stitches laughing. But his wife and seven kids adore him and know when he's serious about something he means it.

Feminism has played its part in the past in getting us past some of the hurdles of inequality. I think feminists are losing their power now and are trying to get it back, but I think most women recognize the radicals for who they are and though they appreciate what has been done in the past don't get carried away with some of the more far-out ideas of the present.

I agree with the question of inequality, I have also felt sad for my wife in her professional position when someone suggested that she was having her period and that was the reason she was short (versus the very real deadlines she faced and had to meet). Now one could argue "thats life", that such inequalities are all a part of the human condition and so we must accept it. I am forced to reject such a proposition. As a member of the church we are told to reject such propositions and activley seek to do better. Just because the pendelum swings doesn't me we have to let it.

[Jeff K.]

So it somehow made you think that the character of Lucy represented all women? I think that is absurd. Do you ever laugh and have fun?

Put enough shows showing women like Lucy and you have a trend. And believe me there were plenty of shows that followed that formula.

[katherine the great]

Seriously, guys, women have been put down for centuries (any fans of Jane Austen?). They still are in many cultures. The pendulum when it swings always goes too far in either direction until it finally reaches that happy medium.

I don't disagree that fathers aren't shown in a very positive light in many of our sitcoms. But men do have a different way of looking at things than women do and I think the exaggerations of that can be very funny. I don't think we should be offended but be able to laugh at ourselves. After all blondes have been portrayed as bimbos for years and as has been pointed out Gracie Allen was portrayed as very dumb but we all loved her and knew her husband loved her.

My own son is teased by his family for his idiosyncracies, and it would make for a very funny show. I could tell you about the couch incident and you would be in stitches laughing. But his wife and seven kids adore him and know when he's serious about something he means it.

Feminism has played its part in the past in getting us past some of the hurdles of inequality. I think feminists are losing their power now and are trying to get it back, but I think most women recognize the radicals for who they are and though they appreciate what has been done in the past don't get carried away with some of the more far-out ideas of the present.

Good post. I think the entertainment business is full of excesses and immorality in general, but what people find funny changes over time and what we see on television reflects that because it is ALL about the money and people aren't going to watch a show they don't like, Culture is SO complex--especially in a country like ours with so many different ethnic influences and all of the many various customs and attitudes that come with that. Putting all the blame for modern entertainment on the feminist movement just seems a bit narrow to me--there are many influences.

[Jeff K.]

I remember Seventh Heaven which was both funny and serious and I believe no one was demeaned in it. Culture is complex, but complexity is not a reason for acceptance.

[katherine the great]

I agree with the question of inequality, I have also felt sad for my wife in her professional position when someone suggested that she was having her period and that was the reason she was short (versus the very real deadlines she faced and had to meet). Now one could argue "thats life", that such inequalities are all a part of the human condition and so we must accept it. I am forced to reject such a proposition. As a member of the church we are told to reject such propositions and activley seek to do better. Just because the pendelum swings doesn't me we have to let it.

That situation would be perfect for a sitcom. The humor in it is that it is a gross generality, but there is a root of truth in it. I doubt there is a woman on the planet who has never had her moods influenced by their cycle. And yet, in an egalitarian society, women must be given an equal opportunity to do a job as a man, and yet has to be mindful to not let her natural hormone changes affect her work.

Can you clarify what you mean by "As a member of the church we are told to reject such propositions"?

[katherine the great]

I remember Seventh Heaven which was both funny and serious and I believe no one was demeaned in it. Culture is complex, but complexity is not a reason for acceptance.

I don't really know how you think Lucy was demeaned. It was just a constant battle of the wits that Ricky usually won, but there was a great deal of love and affection on both sides.

[Calm]

I know of several individuals in the past who without master degrees in business hit a ceiling such they were bypassed by younger and less experienced individuals as well as some jobs that won't even consider nongraduates so while noncollege attendees make get a headstart in some jobs, there are jobs that eventually having a degree will give an edge and others where it is a necessity.

[Jeff K.]

That situation would be perfect for a sitcom. The humor in it is that it is a gross generality, but there is a root of truth in it. I doubt there is a woman on the planet who has never had her moods influenced by their cycle. And yet, in an egalitarian society, women must be given an equal opportunity to do a job as a man, and yet has to be mindful to not let her natural hormone changes affect her work.

Can you clarify what you mean by "As a member of the church we are told to reject such propositions"?

My wife did not find the situation humorous, it undermined her authority, and ability to lead and perform. Perhaps as a woman you have not had that opportunity in the world? (again instill laughtrack here).

In answer to your question:

The church since its beginnings did not accept the status quo of what is, and where pendelums stood.

[katherine the great]

My wife did not find the situation humorous, it undermined her authority, and ability to lead and perform. Perhaps as a woman you have not had that opportunity in the world? (again instill laughtrack here).

A single comment undermined her authority and ability to lead and perform? I seriously doubt it. Maybe I just look for more humor in life situations and try not to take everything so seriously.

[Jeff K.]

Do you really think such a comment is the only one? Or its repetition by others? I think you and I both know that you are attempting to mitigate a bad thing. It wasn't hilarious, no one laughed, it was wrong and mean spirited. I find it interesting that a woman would actually argue in favor of demeaning statements especially for those women who are constantly fighting against that glass ceiling that was and in some placed still is in place. Amazing really. I trust you will not be in the forefront demanding equality in the workplace, after all, trying to be treated equally to others is just sooooo humorous for the little woman.

[katherine the great]

Do you really think such a comment is the only one? Or its repetition by others? I think you and I both know that you are attempting to mitigate a bad thing. It wasn't hilarious, no one laughed, it was wrong and mean spirited. I find it interesting that a woman would actually argue in favor of demeaning statements especially for those women who are constantly fighting against that glass ceiling that was and in some placed still is in place. Amazing really. I trust you will not be in the forefront demanding equality in the workplace, after all, trying to be treated equally to others is just sooooo humorous for the little woman.

Well okay Jeff. However you choose to view life is your choice. I own a business in a very male dominated field, and I'm quite familiar with the dynamics, I find it a mostly positive experience. I'm feeling all the positive energy being sucked right out of this thread so I'm going to find some shiny, happy people to talk to. (Where's Bluebell and Nehor?)

[Jeff K.]

Shrug, inequality will always be there as long as we tolerate it. I have always preferred a Margaret Thatcher who demanded equality and respect to a Paris Hilton who laughed it off. Both are successful in their own right, and perhaps women and their attitudes reside between the two. I do respect one much more than the other.