Openly-Gay Presidential Candidate Launches Anti-Mormon Website

[Zeta-Flux]

Rather than answer a question that has been answered numerous times, why don't you tell us what YOU THINK the church did that was different than ALL the other churches.

Only donated in-kind donations? No, I imagine there were other churches which did that that.

Had participation from out-of-state? Again, no.

Had local leaders encourage their members to be active? Again I believe that happened in other churches.

Does it have to do with the organizational structure of our church? I imagine that if so, our church might be different in that regard. But I can't think of any significant aspect there. Maybe you guys are thinking about the involvement of our general authorities?

I'm sorry that you have answered this question numerous times, and I'm sorry that I've apparently never heard the answer, and can't even come up with a coherent guess. My best guess was that maybe it is the length of time our church has been involved.

[california boy]

So you think iit is just by chance that Prop 8 is often referred to as "The Mormon Proposition" Or do you have any idea why it got that name?

[Zeta-Flux]

Oh, I thought that was because the Mormons were an easy target to blame. Is there another reason?

[california boy]

LOL are you really serious???

[california boy]

Zeta I have had enough conversations to respect your intelligence. You honesly can't beleve that Mormons were radmonly singled out because they are an easy target. You certainly know enough about the funding of prop 8 and the amount of volunteers the church managed to engage in this "war against marriage" to be able to answer this simple question.

Perhaps you can list another church that provided 70% of the volunteers to defeat this proposition.

[Zeta-Flux]

Yes. I am serious. What specifically did our church do differently?

I moved to California right after the first activist time (I think it was called Proposition 22), and so didn't personally get involved. I did talk to a lot of members. I lived in Berkeley, and so as you may imagine there were a lot of mixed feelings about it. Then I moved away right before Proposition 8. I know that our members donated quite a bit of time. Ah, you just posted, and I see this is what you were referring to.

I am (honestly) unfamiliar with that figure. How many volunteers were there total? Where do you get that statistic? Is it in terms of the total time donated, or the total number of participants?

[Zeta-Flux]

I just went to the FAIR article on this subject, and they don't mention this 70% volunteer statistic. I googled it, and the 70% articles are all about black Californians being in favor of it at a 70% rate so I doubt I'll be able to find your statistic on my own.

I went to the wiki article. There it makes the following claims:

(1) About 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state.

and

(2) ProtectMarriage, the official proponents of Proposition 8, estimate that about half the donations they received came from Mormon sources, and that "eighty to ninety percent" of the early volunteers going door-to-door were LDS.

The reference to claim #1 is an out-of-date link--although I imagine the statistic is probably accurate.

The reference to claim #2 is a New York Times article quoting an estimate from Jeff Flint--a strategist for Protect Marriage. This quote I am a little more skeptical of. It gives no figures, no context. How many early volunteers were there? etc...

But anyway, if I'm understanding correctly, the issue is that Mormons contributed a significant amount more to the passage, per member, in time and money than members of any other church, be it 70% or something else. I may not agree with how Jaybear characterizes this as leading a war, but I understand now where his rhetoric comes from. Thanks california boy. I was under the impression that our members were not that far out in the front--perhaps because our church itself donated so little.

[california boy]

According to all accounts of the political donations, members of the church donated over 50% of the money to spend on the advertising campaign. to pass prop 8. In addition the church members provided 70% of the volunteers on prop 8. You can look up the figures on this. It is not hard to find. No one has seriously denied the amount of time and money the members of the church put into passing prop 8.

Anyone who says Mormons were targeted because they are an easy target is really being pretty disingenuous. Quite frankly what I find most odd is the denial of the membership of the church for their contribution to passing prop 8. It is as if they are ashamed of their participation and want to pretend that they did nothing more than any other church as stated by Juliann.

[california boy]

I just went to the FAIR article on this subject, and they don't mention this 70% volunteer statistic. I googled it, and the 70% articles are all about black Californians being in favor of it at a 70% rate.

I can't believe that someone as involved in Prop 8 has such little background in the churches role in this proposition. Google" mormon chntribution to prop 8'

Here is one of hundreds of links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,^[52][53][54] whose members are commonly known asMormons, also publicly supported the proposition. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter intended to be read in every congregation in California. In this letter, church members were encouraged to "do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time."^[52] Local church leaders set organizational and monetary goals for their membership—sometimes quite specific—to fulfill this call.^[55][56] The response of church members to their leadership's appeals to donate money and volunteer time was very supportive,^[57] such thatLatter-day Saints provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California.^[58] About 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state.^[59] ProtectMarriage, the official proponents of Proposition 8, estimate that about half the donations they received came from Mormon sources, and that "eighty to ninety percent" of the early volunteers going door-to-door were LDS.^[60] The The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints produced and broadcast to its congregations a program describing the support of the Proposition, and describing the timeline it proposes for what it describes as grassroots efforts to support the Proposition.^[61]

Other religious organizations that supported Proposition 8 include the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America,^[62] Eastern Orthodox Church,^[63] a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson,^[64] American Family Association, Focus on the Family^[65]and the National Organization for Marriage.^[66] Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, also endorsed the measure.^[67]

[Pahoran]

So you think iit is just by chance that Prop 8 is often referred to as "The Mormon Proposition" Or do you have any idea why it got that name?

I know the question was not directed to me, but I know exactly how it got that name.

You see, there is a certain political strategy known as "scapegoating," in which a small, distinct minority is singled out for negative attention and blame. Those who use this strategy appeal to public prejudices and misperceptions about the target minority; such people are known as "demagogues" or "rabble-rousers."

Proposition 8 is "known" by the sobriquet of "the Mormon Proposition" because certain unprincipled manipulators are determined that it should.

Does that answer your question?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Zeta-Flux]

Pahoran,

I don't think that fairly characterizes their position. If I understand it right, they name it the Mormon Proposition because of the time, money, and impact that Mormons had in passing the Proposition. Not that the Mormons were solely responsible.

I would agree that this can lead to scapegoating, and I would also agree that some would name it such for such a purpose. In particular, when one focuses on the Mormons to the exclusion of other factors (such as the presidential candidate mentioned on this thread seems to do) that may be a symptom of such scapegoating and bigotry.

[Zeta-Flux]

california boy,

Please see my edited post up above.

I can't believe that someone as involved in Prop 8 has such little background in the churches role in this proposition.

I think this is exactly why it had escaped my notice until now. People I had conversed with often conflated the "church" with "members of the church" in an effort to get the church to lose its tax-exempt status. The church, as a corporation, itself donated very little time and money on the whole. Members themselves however donated a lot of money and time. I was aware of the first fact, and not the second, probably because of the inadvertent confusion caused by quotations such as I just gave from you.

[california boy]

Zeta you are exactly right. Many members have tried to paint the whole pushback against the church as being merely scapegoat mentality while never acknowledging the significant role members of the church took in passing prop 8. They are also quick to point to the "Mormon invasion" ad distorting the truth, while never acknowledging any of the distorted ads the prop 8 ran with the money collected from those same members.

[Sky]

Obviously this guy has an axe to grind. The site he made is ridiculous. Sky - did I read your post right? That you were glad to see backlash against the gay community itself? Why? What have you got against the gay community? You make yourself no better than the buffoon who made that website with such an attitude… or axe.

I was complementing the Los Angeles Times and parts of the gay community for calling out Fred Karger on his bigotry. The LA Times, like Karger, endorses same-sex marriage. But I was happy to see that they didn’t give him a free pass.

Hope this clears it up for you.

[Zeta-Flux]

Zeta you are exactly right. Many members have tried to paint the whole pushback against the church as being merely scapegoat mentality while never acknowledging the significant role members of the church took in passing prop 8. They are also quick to point to the "Mormon invasion" ad distorting the truth, while never acknowledging any of the distorted ads the prop 8 ran with the money collected from those same members.

I'm not sure I agree that the "distortion" of the prop 8 ads comes even close to the type of distortion in the Mormon invasion ad, but that is for another thread. Ciao.

[Storm Rider]

It really does not matter what the Mormons did or did not do. What is absolutely crystal clear is that the citizens of the California voted in support of Prop 8. If anyone is to blame it is the citizens of California. Mormons have never had control of the citizenry nor will they have have control of how people vote.

The only reason opponents would like to paint it as the Mormon Proposition is an effort to malign the entire effort. It is a fact that on a national level Mormons are held in low esteem; if the opponenents can succeed in aligning the proposition with the Mormons they succeed in belittleing the proposition itself with the same taint that Mormons have. It is a nice bit of marketing, but it has failed to a large degree. Catholics, Protestants, Black churches, and all other supporters have not capitulated to this attempt and are vocal in their acknowledgement of their own strong efforts in assisting to pass Prop. 8.

The fact is that the people spoke with the majority of their votes.

[california boy]

The only reason opponents would like to paint it as the Mormon Proposition is an effort to malign the entire effort.

What a surprise. Another Mormon trying to gloss over the role the church played in both money and time spent to pass prop 8.

You really think it is referred to as "the Mormon Proposition" is because "on a national level Mormons are held in low esteem?" wow. Just how do you think Mormons become a religion held in such low esteem?

[Storm Rider]

What a surprise. Another Mormon trying to gloss over the role the church played in both money and time spent to pass prop 8.

You really think it is referred to as "the Mormon Proposition" is because "on a national level Mormons are held in low esteem?" wow. Just how do you think Mormons become a religion held in such low esteem?

Stupidity comes in many forms. One of the worst forms is found in those who bury their head in the sand, refusing to hear any evidence contrary to their sacred opinions, and then repeats incessantly their holy "truth".

The LDS Church stands with the majority condemning the perversion of homosexuals and their morally bankrupt positions. It will continue to condemn all sexual perversion with it is child abuse, rape, or the unnatural acts of homosexuality. The Church will continue to stand with all churches that stand for sexual purity and holiness.

Further, the Church and LDS in genearl does not concern itself with those who deride the gospel of Jesus Christ or hold them in low esteem.

[Zeta-Flux]

What a surprise. Another Mormon trying to gloss over the role the church played in both money and time spent to pass prop 8.

Or rather, put those roles in context.

You really think it is referred to as "the Mormon Proposition" is because "on a national level Mormons are held in low esteem?" wow.

I agree with Storm Rider that this is one of the reasons we are focused on. It is easy to take that name out of context, and it is easy to pick on the Mormons.

Just how do you think Mormons become a religion held in such low esteem?

Bigotry. Fear. Misunderstanding. Disagreement with their moral values. Lots of things.

[frankenstein]

Stormrider, you seems little over zealous in your statements,

"The only reason" really, you know "the only reason" the LDS Church bears the brunt of criticism...could it also be that LDS Leader commanded/instructed LDS in California to do a certain thing? Could it be that the LDS called for a block vote of its people, which in the eyes of many violates Tax Exempt rules? (It have never been determined whether the LDS violated United States Federal Tax rules, but what the Church did with prop 8 provides a reasonable basis for taking the position that the LDS did infact run afoul of the Tax code)

"The LDS Church stands with the majority condemning the perversion of homosexuals and their morally bankrupt positions."

Is non-discrimination based on sexual orientation a morally bankrupt position? Just curious as to your thoughts on The LDS Church Officially supporting the SLC ordinance which prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. Is the support of insurance benefits to ssm partners morally bankrupt, since by supporting the benefits one is supporting the ss relationship?

Why does the LDS Church bear the large portion of criticism, because it made the biggest waves, in money, training, in-kind donation etc.

[Zeta-Flux]

Why does the LDS Church bear the large portion of criticism, because it made the biggest waves, in money, training, in-kind donation etc.

So you implicitly agree that the name was a form of criticism? That's a start.

By the way, to make your statement more accurate, I would say "Why does the LDS Church bear the large portion of criticism, because it's members made the biggest waves, in money, training, in-kind donation etc." Of course, that begs the question: why should that lead to criticism?

[frankenstein]

So you implicitly agree that the name was a form of criticism? That's a start.

By the way, to make your statement more accurate, I would say "Why does the LDS Church bear the large portion of criticism, because it's members made the biggest waves, in money, training, in-kind donation etc." Of course, that begs the question: why should that lead to criticism?

I agree to nothing.

And you are being disengenious by removing the Church from the statement the Church via the Prophet called on members to do a specific thing. The Church via a official rep provided training etc. And iirc an apostle from the.Church was involved. The Church made in-kind contributions which the church reported. So yes the Church was directly involved.

Did the.Pope issue an edict for Catholics? Did a spokes person who is recognized as reprsenting all blacks issue an edict like the Lds prophet did?

Let's not be ashamed of the Church involvement with the passage of prop 8. The involvement of the Church with prop 8 is something we LDS need to accept and not attempt to down play or pass the buck on its involvement.

[Zeta-Flux]

I agree to nothing.

And you are being disengenious by removing the Church from the statement the Church via the Prophet called on members to do a specific thing. The Church via a official rep provided training etc. And iirc an apostle from the.Church was involved. The Church made in-kind contributions which the church reported. So yes the Church was directly involved.

I wasn't being disingenuous, and I don't deny any of these things. However, I was making the clarification that the corporation (i.e. the legal identity) of the church did not make the biggest donations, either in money, time, or in-kind donations. The corporation was actually fairly removed in those things. I make this clarification because some people don't understand the difference, and how it relates to tax laws and the electorate participating in the elections.

A large amount of the money came from individual donations from Mormons. Not much money at all came from the corporation.

Not much time was donated by employees of the corporation, but lots of time was donated by individual members.

The corporation asked for participation, and the members responded.

Did the.Pope issue an edict for Catholics? Did a spokes person who is recognized as reprsenting all blacks issue an edict like the Lds prophet did?

Actually, the LDS prophet did not make any edict. The First Presidency did send this letter. It is clearly not an edict, but an invitation for involvement.

But yes, the leaders of other churches did invite their followers to participate.

Let's not be ashamed of the Church involvement with the passage of prop 8. The involvement of the Church with prop 8 is something we LDS need to accept and not attempt to down play or pass the buck on its involvement.

I'm not ashamed. I just like to add the context.

[Ron Beron]

Could it be that the LDS called for a block vote of its people, which in the eyes of many violates Tax Exempt rules? (It have never been determined whether the LDS violated Tax rules, but what the Church did with prop 8 provides a reasonable basis for taking the position that the LDS did infact run afoul of the Tax code)

Then why bring it up when all it seems like is you making a false witness.

[california boy]

Stupidity comes in many forms. One of the worst forms is found in those who bury their head in the sand, refusing to hear any evidence contrary to their sacred opinions, and then repeats incessantly their holy "truth".

The LDS Church stands with the majority condemning the perversion of homosexuals and their morally bankrupt positions. It will continue to condemn all sexual perversion with it is child abuse, rape, or the unnatural acts of homosexuality. The Church will continue to stand with all churches that stand for sexual purity and holiness.

Further, the Church and LDS in genearl does not concern itself with those who deride the gospel of Jesus Christ or hold them in low esteem.

Stormrider, are you calling homosexuals child abusers and rapists?