altersteve Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 So, once again: if you believe that your God is governed by the laws of nature, how is it you also believe that your God violates these laws pretty much continually?He doesn't. He is simply governed by higher laws. He is not bound by the same laws that we are bound by. This is what you seem to have trouble understanding.
Freedom Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 While there is a long history or reported violations of the laws of nature by God as taught in Mormonism, let's focus on one that is ironclad. And that is the violation of special relativity every time a visitation is made to Earth by a heavenly being who arrives lass than 4 years or so fater this heavenly being leaves Kolob, or every time a prayer is answered in less than several years from the time it is offered.It would really be great if you could provide some kind of logical or reasonable answer to this question.Are you still hung up on Kolob? God doesn't live there. I have provided multiple examples of physicists who disagree with your opinion of this science being iron clad. All agree that we know virtually nothing and that there are many contradictions that still need to be worked out. But this is off topic. The question we are discussing is whether God can do what ever he wants or if there are eternal laws governing creation. This is a theological debate, not a scientific debate. We know what your opinions are but I do not see how they are relevant to this discussion.
thesometimesaint Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Mariner:We don't know where Heaven is. But where ever it is it isn't here.Back at the beginings of the 20th Century it was widely belived than man would never fly. Then two brother named Orvil and Wilber proved that idea false.
Mariner Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) Altersteve,So, your claim is that God does not violate natural law because he works according to higher natural laws - laws that you cannot describe or explain, except to say that these allow God to violate all of the natural laws by which the universe is known to operate. Is that about right?Do you realize that making such a claim is no different from simply claiming that God works by magic?If this idea works for you, fine. I would keep it to myself, however. A lot of Mormon apologists are very sensitive when it comes to claiming that God works by magic.Freedom,Your response is that you are engaged in a theological debate and so science is not relevant. If this is the case, then why keep claiming that God works according to natural law (i.e. science)?thesometimesaint,Are you denying the scripture that says that the Kolob is the star/planet that is closest to the throne of God?If so, are you stating that God is not to be found at or near his throne? Edited December 30, 2011 by Mariner
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted December 30, 2011 Author Posted December 30, 2011 I know you are familiar with our doctrine of eternal progression so it appears you are being facetious. God the Father, in my understanding, is governed by laws. Although it is not stated outright in scripture, the church does not discount the claim 'as man is God once was, as God is, man may become'. So our God, the Eternal Father and the only God we worship, is governed by laws because God is a God of order.If God were not bound by laws...be they internal or external; how would we measure his righteous, or Him, ours?
altersteve Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 So, your claim is that God does not violate natural law because he works according to higher natural laws - laws that you cannot describe or explain, except to say that these allow God to violate all of the natural laws by which the universe is known to operate. Is that about right?No, that's not my claim. My claim is that the laws by which God is governed are higher than the laws by which we are governed, and that He is not governed by the same laws that we are. Plain and simple. No need to go any further than that, because we have no revelation on the subject.Do you realize that making such a claim is no different from simply claiming that God works by magic?No, it's actually very different.If this idea works for you, fine. I would keep it to myself, however. A lot of Mormon apologists are very sensitive when it comes to claiming that God works by magic.I don't believe God works by magic, so I'm not going to "keep it to myself." Don't tell me what I believe, please.Are you denying the scripture that says that the Kolob is the star/planet that is closest to the throne of God?If so, are you stating that God is not to be found at or near his throne?I have always read the scripture that Kolob is nearest to the throne of God as a metaphorical or symbolic declaration of power, not a literal statement telling us where God lives. The idea behind Kolob has very deep theological meanings behind it that you apparently haven't considered.
Mariner Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 I have always read the scripture that Kolob is nearest to the throne of God as a metaphorical or symbolic declaration of power, not a literal statement telling us where God lives. The idea behind Kolob has very deep theological meanings behind it that you apparently haven't considered.Actually, I have considered them and I agree that they are deep. I am not sure that they are theological, though.
thesometimesaint Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Mariner:Where ever Kolob is it isn't here.
Freedom Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 No, that's not my claim. My claim is that the laws by which God is governed are higher than the laws by which we are governed, and that He is not governed by the same laws that we are. Plain and simple. No need to go any further than that, because we have no revelation on the subject.I would state it that God is government by laws that we do not yet understand. We have laws that govern what we can perceive from our limited perspective on the earth and I doubt very highly that, 7,000 years from now, scientists will be thanking early 20th century physicists for unlocking the mysteries of the universe. God has not relieved where he resides so where he resides is purely speculation. Science has yet to explain many key aspects of our reality but as more data becomes available, science will have further breakthroughs that will help us understand the nature of God. For now, you will be hard pressed to find a scientist that claims we understand even a tiny fraction of what we perceive as our universe.
altersteve Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 Actually, I have considered them and I agree that they are deep. I am not sure that they are theological, though.They have to do with theology, so yes, they are theological.
altersteve Posted December 30, 2011 Posted December 30, 2011 I would state it that God is government by laws that we do not yet understand. We have laws that govern what we can perceive from our limited perspective on the earth and I doubt very highly that, 7,000 years from now, scientists will be thanking early 20th century physicists for unlocking the mysteries of the universe. God has not relieved where he resides so where he resides is purely speculation. Science has yet to explain many key aspects of our reality but as more data becomes available, science will have further breakthroughs that will help us understand the nature of God. For now, you will be hard pressed to find a scientist that claims we understand even a tiny fraction of what we perceive as our universe.I agree.
Mariner Posted December 31, 2011 Posted December 31, 2011 So the consensus opinion seems to be that Jesus does not use science. Many of the responses on this thread so far indicate that Jesus uses "higher laws" or works in a way we do not understand. Certainly neither of these would qualify as science.The prevailing belief here seems to be that Jesus can do pretty much whatever he wants. This seems like a perfectly logical position to take if one believes that God or Jesus are beings with supernatural powers.However, this belief and the majority of responses on this thread so far stand in direct contrast to claims by earlier LDS prophets, such as Joseph Fielding Smith, to the effect that God obeys natural laws in accomplishing his work. It seems that these words of JFS, words that are often repeated but apparently not well understood, are no longer really believed. Either that, or the belief is that Joseph Fielding Smith and others who claim that God operates according to natural laws don't have a clue what those natural laws might be.No matter how most of the responses on this thread are spun, the majority cannot be reconciled with the claim that Jesus obeys natural law, let alone uses science. Science, as reflected in the basic mathematics of classical mechanics, relativity, quantum mechanics, and to a greater extent each year, string theory, is how humankind describes and even defines the laws of nature.If one claims that Jesus of God use "higher laws of nature", but cannot describe those laws, or show that they exist or are in effect, then one is doing nothing more than evoking magic.Those who object to the use of the word magic in this context should consider its definition as shown below from two different dictionaries:magicnoun. 1. use of means believed to have supernatural power over natural forces2. the power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces3. extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
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