“Yonder Is Matter Unorganized”; Why Joseph Was A Visionary.

[thesometimesaint]

Pa Pa:

Sorry. It was addressed to Log.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa:

Sorry. It was addressed to Log.

Got it...no harm. I was just wondering.

[mfbukowski]

And so, you concede one, but not the other, of my points. I think you only disagree with the point about Darwinian evolution because you are unaware of the complete and utter lack of observational evidence showing that any interesting structure has ever come about via it. Darwinian evolution has been shown to break functional structures in populations, say, bacterial flagella, for example, but it has never been observed to create them.

I used to build model cars when I was a kid. Science is a model, like a model car.

It might look like the real thing, but all it does is sit on the mantel and not go anywhere.

[thesometimesaint]

Log:

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html

[Mariner]

I used to build model cars when I was a kid. Science is a model, like a model car.

It might look like the real thing, but all it does is sit on the mantel and not go anywhere.

This has to be one of the most over-the-top, unfounded and silly claims you have ever made on this board, and that is saying a lot.

Look around you. Unless you are a subsistence farmer or live in the wild as a hunter gatherer (in which case you would not be participating on this board), pretty much everything that you use and depend on in a day (electricity, cars, computers, airplanes, modern medical systems chemicals/materials pharmaceuticals, fresh food from more than 50 miles away) are all the product of the model that you claim sits on the mantle and does not go anywhere.

Let me ask you if you honestly think that anyone on this board would really be so uninformed as to agree with your statement.

If not (and I hope not) then why write such a thing?

Edited December 3, 2011 by Mariner

[thesometimesaint]

Mariner:

Science is a way to model the earth/universe. A very useful model. The closer the model is the better. We generally call it reality.

[Mariner]

Mariner:

Science is a way to model the earth/universe. A very useful model. The closer the model is the better. We generally call it reality.

Are you agreeing with mfbukowski when he says that science is not the real thing and that it just sits there on the mantle and does not go anywhere, or not?

[thesometimesaint]

Mariner:

IMNTBHO he is partially correct. Science produces models that explain the natural world, but the models themselves are but a reflection of that world.

[mfbukowski]

This has to be one of the most over-the-top, unfounded and silly claims you have ever made on this board, and that is saying a lot.

Look around you. Unless you are a subsistence farmer or live in the wild as a hunter gatherer (in which case you would not be participating on this board), pretty much everything that you use and depend on in a day (electricity, cars, computers, airplanes, modern medical systems chemicals/materials pharmaceuticals, fresh food from more than 50 miles away) are all the product of the model that you claim sits on the mantle and does not go anywhere.

Let me ask you if you honestly think that anyone on this board would really be so uninformed as to agree with your statement.

If not (and I hope not) then why write such a thing?

I should have phrased it better. There is no question that scientific models work.

My point was merely that they are models; they are symbolic representations of the ways things work, not things themselves. I agree it was an off the cuff remark that was not well thought through.

[thesometimesaint]

Now that you've better explained it. I agree.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This has to be one of the most over-the-top, unfounded and silly claims you have ever made on this board, and that is saying a lot.

Trust me it is not. Now back to the topic...do you think Joseph was a visionary?

[Mariner]

Trust me it is not. Now back to the topic...do you think Joseph was a visionary?

I do not.

Not even close.

I find nothing in his writings or preaching that cannot be found in the writing or preaching of others who pre-dated or were contemporary with him.

Although he and his cohorts were able to combine some of these concepts in a somewhat unique way, time has shown the foundational truth claims that Joseph Smith made for the LDS Church are not supported by evidence and therefore are relegated to a matter of faith.

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of visionaries in the 19th century. Joseph Smith was just not one of them.

Here are three visionaries that come to mind. All are named Charles, and all were alive and working during Joseph Smith's lifetime.

Charles Babbage / programmable computer

Charles Lyell / geology and stratigraphy (real age of the Earth).

Lyell's work influenced probably the greatest visionary of the 19th Century:

Charles Darwin / evolution.

The work of these individuals has endured, has been supported by the findings of those who followed in their footsteps, can now be accepted on the basis of evidence instead of unfounded belief, and have contributed greatly to the well being of humankind. From the work of these individuals, we have modern geology, programmable computers and the central theory in biology and the life sciences.

And all this just from three guys name Charles.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Mariner

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I do not.

Not even close.

I find nothing in his writings or preaching that cannot be found in the writing or preaching of others who pre-dated or were contemporary with him.

Although he and his cohorts were able to combine some of these concepts in a somewhat unique way, time has shown the foundational truth claims that Joseph Smith made for the LDS Church are not supported by evidence and therefore are relegated to a matter of faith.

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of visionaries in the 19th century. Joseph Smith was just not one of them.

Here are three visionaries that come to mind. All are named Charles, and all were alive and working during Joseph Smith's lifetime.

Charles Babbage / programmable computer

Charles Lyell / geology and stratigraphy (real age of the Earth).

Lyell's work influenced probably the greatest visionary of the 19th Century:

Charles Darwin / evolution.

The work of these individuals has endured, has been supported by the findings of those who followed in their footsteps, can now be accepted on the basis of evidence instead of unfounded belief, and have contributed greatly to the well being of humankind. From the work of these individuals, we have modern geology, programmable computers and the central theory in biology and the life sciences.

And all this just from three guys name Charles.

Is this James?

[Mariner]

Is this James?

Nope.

Not even close.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Nope.

Not even close.

Good

[Mariner]

Good

Glad to be able to provide at least one response that you see as good.

(I think.)

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I do not.

Not even close.

I find nothing in his writings or preaching that cannot be found in the writing or preaching of others who pre-dated or were contemporary with him.

Although he and his cohorts were able to combine some of these concepts in a somewhat unique way, time has shown the foundational truth claims that Joseph Smith made for the LDS Church are not supported by evidence and therefore are relegated to a matter of faith.

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of visionaries in the 19th century. Joseph Smith was just not one of them.

Here are three visionaries that come to mind. All are named Charles, and all were alive and working during Joseph Smith's lifetime.

Charles Babbage / programmable computer

Charles Lyell / geology and stratigraphy (real age of the Earth).

Lyell's work influenced probably the greatest visionary of the 19th Century:

Charles Darwin / evolution.

The work of these individuals has endured, has been supported by the findings of those who followed in their footsteps, can now be accepted on the basis of evidence instead of unfounded belief, and have contributed greatly to the well being of humankind. From the work of these individuals, we have modern geology, programmable computers and the central theory in biology and the life sciences.

And all this just from three guys name Charles.

Don't forget "Charlie Brown"..."GOOD GRIEF!"

Edited December 6, 2011 by Bill “Papa” Lee
Too much noise and too little content = thread ban