“Yonder Is Matter Unorganized”; Why Joseph Was A Visionary.

[zerinus]

I was responding to Bernard Gui, who has been vigorously arguing in this very thread for a plurality of Gods as the makers of the universe. The Book of Abraham explicitly credits a plurality of Gods with organizing the universe. The idea that one God alone made the universe is apparently not LDS doctrine.

Apparently not biblical either: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . ." (Genesis 1:26).

[zerinus]

The singularity of the Big Bang is not something that "preexisted" the Big Bang but is the initial moment and condition of the universe, the beginning of the Big Bang.

The singularity has a precise mathematical definition, and is predicted by Einstein's equations. It is a condition that arises when a large quantity of mass collapses under its own gravitational field. It is not a statement about creating something out of nothing.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Science has the answer for what God was doing for eternity before creation? Science tells us why God decided to create us? I'm fascinated. Please explain.

Could you explain your fascination about this statement?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Bernard,

I had stated that God had caused the universe to come into existence. You wrote:

Which God? Yahweh (Jehovah), the Lord God Almighty, who revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to Israel through Moses and the Prophets, and who became incarnate as the man Christ Jesus.

You mean Moses to whom he spoke "Face to Face", then later in Exodus 33, it says this is impossible...all in the same chapter.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Apparently not biblical either: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . ." (Genesis 1:26).

Does make one wonder, Rob seems to be promoting Modelism.

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

I had commented, "The idea that one God alone made the universe is apparently not LDS doctrine." You replied:

Apparently not biblical either: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . ." (Genesis 1:26).

I see only one God in that text. "And God said...." The Hebrew word here, elohim, is lexically in a plural form, but grammatically it is being used in this text as a singular noun, since the Hebrew verb for "said" (wayyo'mer) is singular. That is why the Greek Septuagint, the ancient Latin versions, and all standard modern-language versions have translated elohim as a singular noun (theos, Deus, Gott, Dios, God, etc.) here and in most other occurrences in the OT. Furthermore, the rest of the Bible agrees that one God is the Creator of the universe (e.g., Neh. 9:6; Isa. 44:24; 45:18; Mal. 2:10; Acts 17:24-25; Rom. 1:25; 1 Peter 4:19; Rev. 4:11), and not one biblical text attributes creation to "Gods."

[thesometimesaint]

Rob Bowman:

"us" is usually not a singular noun.

Edited November 29, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[Rob Bowman]

Pa Pa,

No, of course I am not promoting modalism. How anyone could seriously make such a statement is beyond me.

Does make one wonder, Rob seems to be promoting Modelism.

[Rob Bowman]

Saint,

You wrote:

"us" is usually not a singular noun.

Agreed, but the fact remains that "God" in Genesis 1:26 functions as a singular noun, not a plural noun, for the reason I gave.

[mfbukowski]

zerinus,

I had commented, "The idea that one God alone made the universe is apparently not LDS doctrine." You replied:

I see only one God in that text. "And God said...." The Hebrew word here, elohim, is lexically in a plural form, but grammatically it is being used in this text as a singular noun, since the Hebrew verb for "said" (wayyo'mer) is singular. That is why the Greek Septuagint, the ancient Latin versions, and all standard modern-language versions have translated elohim as a singular noun (theos, Deus, Gott, Dios, God, etc.) here and in most other occurrences in the OT. Furthermore, the rest of the Bible agrees that one God is the Creator of the universe (e.g., Neh. 9:6; Isa. 44:24; 45:18; Mal. 2:10; Acts 17:24-25; Rom. 1:25; 1 Peter 4:19; Rev. 4:11), and not one biblical text attributes creation to "Gods."

In other words- the confusion goes back to the original Hebrew.

It's not as if we invented it.

[mfbukowski]

Saint,

You wrote:

Agreed, but the fact remains that "God" in Genesis 1:26 functions as a singular noun, not a plural noun, for the reason I gave.

Oh yeah. That settles it. "Because you said so"- that's a great argument. It's a plural noun with a singular verb.

That is called "ambiguity". That means it is subject to interpretation, surprise surprise.

[LeSellers]

"us" is usually not a singular noun.

When it's a noun, it always is. "Us" is the subject of this sentence, and it's a singular noun.

However, as pronoun, it is always plural, as is "our" ("in our image").

"Eloheim" is a plural noun. It means "Gods".

Lehi

[LeSellers]

I see only one God in that text. "And God said...." The Hebrew word here, elohim, is lexically in a plural form, but grammatically it is being used in this text as a singular noun, since the Hebrew verb for "said" (wayyo'mer) is singular.

In USmerican English, the noun "family" is typically singular: "My family is coming to visit." In Britain, it is more often plural: "My family are coming to visit."

I wonder if Eloheim is, or was, a collective noun, like family, company, etc., and that, since the passage in question is in the third person, Moses used a singular verb as we USmericans do with "family", even when referencing a "composite" concept, as "family" is.

Lehi

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

We are not amused.

[zerinus]

I see only one God in that text. "And God said...." The Hebrew word here, elohim, is lexically in a plural form, but grammatically it is being used in this text as a singular noun, since the Hebrew verb for "said" (wayyo'mer) is singular. That is why the Greek Septuagint, the ancient Latin versions, and all standard modern-language versions have translated elohim as a singular noun (theos, Deus, Gott, Dios, God, etc.) here and in most other occurrences in the OT.

That is a matter of interpretation. We think that they are wrong. The "majority opinion" does not necessarily make "right opinion".

Furthermore, the rest of the Bible agrees that one God is the Creator of the universe (e.g., Neh. 9:6; Isa. 44:24; 45:18; Mal. 2:10; Acts 17:24-25; Rom. 1:25; 1 Peter 4:19; Rev. 4:11), and not one biblical text attributes creation to "Gods."

Well, Genesis 1:26 does for one thing; and I agree that creation in essence is by one God, because all other gods are subordinate and subservient to Him, and worship Him as their God--including Jesus. So in that sense there is in reality only one God. But there is also a sense in which there is more than one god. Jesus for example said that there was only one God, who was His God, and whom He worshipped. Yet He Himself was also God. So there is a sense indeed that there is only one God; while there is also a sense in which there is more than one God, as Jesus attested in John 10:34-36.

Edited November 29, 2011 by zerinus

[Rob Bowman]

Lehi,

You wrote:

When it's a noun, it always is. "Us" is the subject of this sentence, and it's a singular noun.

However, as pronoun, it is always plural, as is "our" ("in our image").

It isn't clear to me whether you are trying to comment on the Hebrew text or the English translation. In English, of course, us and our are both plural pronouns. In the Hebrew text, "let us make" is one word, a Hebrew verb, na'aseh, which is the qal imperfect first-person common plural form; no separate word translates as "us" because the first-person plural is built into the verb. The Hebrew words translated "in our image, according to our likeness," besalmenu kidmutenu, use first-person plural suffixes where we would use the pronoun "our."

You wrote:

"Eloheim" is a plural noun. It means "Gods".

This is a gross oversimplification. Biblical Hebrew often used plural forms where no plural meaning was intended. As I pointed out, when elohim takes a singular verb, elohim functions as a singular noun, not as a plural noun. In such uses, it does not mean "Gods."

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Pa Pa,

No, of course I am not promoting modalism. How anyone could seriously make such a statement is beyond me.

Could be your firm conformation giving several names to "one individual", and ignoring the "let [us] make man in [our} on image". Obviously Eliohiem is plural and the statement only confirms it. Even notice (as a side note) that no matter how you spell "Modelism" or "Modalsim" word does not reconize it as spelled correctly.

[Vance]

Agreed, but the fact remains that "God" in Genesis 1:26 functions as a singular noun, not a plural noun, for the reason I gave.

This post reminds me of another.

You made this assertion without providing any evidence to back it up. That means that all I need to do to answer this criticism adequately is simply to deny it. I deny it.

So, the response "I deny it" is sufficient to Bowman's assertion.

[mfbukowski]

I wonder if Eloheim is, or was, a collective noun, like family, company, etc., and that, since the passage in question is in the third person, Moses used a singular verb as we USmericans do with "family", even when referencing a "composite" concept, as "family" is.

Absolutely!

But I will go with whatever Volgadon says. I think he is the best person on the board to determine the answer to this one.

Edited November 29, 2011 by mfbukowski

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is a gross oversimplification. Biblical Hebrew often used plural forms where no plural meaning was intended. As I pointed out, when elohim takes a singular verb, elohim functions as a singular noun, not as a plural noun. In such uses, it does not mean "Gods."

Hey Rob,

Not really following this thread much. But can you explain why in this case were "Biblical Hebrew often used plural forms where no plural meaning was intended" you can say this when they use the word "us" in conjunction with these plural forms?

[Rob Bowman]

Pa Pa,

You wrote:

Could be your firm conformation giving several names to "one individual", and ignoring the "let [us] make man in [our} on image". Obviously Eliohiem is plural and the statement only confirms it.

No, I am not ignoring the plural forms "let us make" and "in our image." But asserting that "obviously" elohim is plural does not make it a numerical plural. Again, it helps to have some direct familiarity with ancient Hebrew and how the language worked. The consensus of scholars working in the field of ancient Semitic languages, including ancient Hebrew, is in agreement on this point. See, for example, Gesenius's Hebrew Grammar on the various uses of the plural form or Bruce Waltke and Michael Patrick O'Connor's An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Eisenbrauns, 1990), 118-24. See also the discussion of "Uses of the extended stem in non-plural sense in NW Semitic" in Robert R. Ratcliffe's The "Broken" Plural Problem in Arabic and Comparative Semitic, Current Issues in Linguistic Theory (Philadelphia: John Benjamins, 1998), 162-63.

You wrote:

Even notice (as a side note) that no matter how you spell "Modelism" or "Modalsim" word does not reconize it as spelled correctly.

Try Modalism.

[Rob Bowman]

Mola,

Hi there.

You asked:

Not really following this thread much. But can you explain why in this case were "Biblical Hebrew often used plural forms where no plural meaning was intended" you can say this when they use the word "us" in conjunction with these plural forms?

Grammatically, the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26 do not have to agree in number with the noun elohim, whereas the verb "said" must agree with it grammatically in number. That is the difference. Exegetically, one must then decide if God is speaking to or within himself, or if God is speaking to other beings, but in any case the plural forms "us" and "our" do not control or signal grammatically the numerical sense of elohim; that is done by the verb "said" (wayyo'mer).

[altersteve]

It's very simple. God, when He says "us" and "our," is talking to someone else, as He told Moses. He's talking to Jesus Christ. The two of them created the world. As I said earlier, saying that two beings created the universe is not in contradiction with saying that God created the universe, because the Father and the Son can be described as either two gods, or as one God. There's no contradiction here between the Bible and the Book of Abraham, at least in LDS doctrine. If you understood LDS doctrine on this matter, Rob, then there should be no confusion.

[Vance]

Exegetically, one must then decide if God is speaking to or within himself, or if God is speaking to other beings, but in any case the plural forms "us" and "our" do not control or signal grammatically the numerical sense of elohim; that is done by the verb "said" (wayyo'mer).

More assertions.

You made this assertion without providing any evidence to back it up. That means that all I need to do to answer this criticism adequately is simply to deny it. I deny it.

So, then, which verb controls the plurality of it in these verses?

Josh. 22:22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)

Deut. 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Ps. 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Vance

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

You wrote:

It's very simple. God, when He says "us" and "our," is talking to someone else, as He told Moses. He's talking to Jesus Christ. The two of them created the world. As I said earlier, saying that two beings created the universe is not in contradiction with saying that God created the universe, because the Father and the Son can be described as either two gods, or as one God. There's no contradiction here between the Bible and the Book of Abraham, at least in LDS doctrine. If you understood LDS doctrine on this matter, Rob, then there should be no confusion.

How do you account for Isaiah 44:24, where Jehovah (YHWH, the LORD) states that he alone made the world?

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb,

I am the LORD that maketh all things;

that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;

that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" (Isa. 44:24 KJV)