Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 As a Mormon with all our cherished beliefs, I have a few questions. There is a theology out there that believes that God has chosen “from before the foundations of the world” (kind of has an LDS sound to it) whom he will save and who he will consign to hell; for no other reason that his “good will and pleasure”, and there is nothing that any can do to change this. This could mean that you were chosen for heaven and you children and grandchildren for hell. This doctrine; which has been spreading since the 16th century, continues to gain tractionKeep in mind you are chosen for nothing you ever did right or wrong (according to this doctrine). This means there is not free will (a most cherished doctrine of ours) nor can one “choose” to follow Christ. Christ must choose you…or already has.Three questions…If this is the God that you encountered, would you reject him, if he rejected your family just because of his “good will and pleasure”?Could you reject him or is your fate sealed?How do you love, or can you love such a being?Keep in mind there is no other church on earth that is based on the possible divine nature of man than ours…this doctrine I speak of is based on the total depravity of man.
LeSellers Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Although Robert Bowman, our resident Calvinist, tells me that my view of the God he worships is a caricature, my reading of Instituts depicts a monster of a God, One Who cannot exist except in the minds of vainglorious individuals. A God Who neither deserves worship, nor can claim to be righteous.We had a topic recently here discussing the concept of "Irresistible Grace". Assuming one of us heathen mormunz were to have been among the "chosen/elect", no, he could not refuse salvation. That's what "irresistible" means. Even I, who despise the mythical Calvinist God, were I to find myself elected, that God would force me to love Him, and to hate my family who were thrust down to hell.Lehi
thesometimesaint Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 Pa Pa:Such a "god" would be worse than Satan. For Satan only takes those who want to be with him.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 16, 2011 Author Posted November 16, 2011 Although Robert Bowman, our resident Calvinist, tells me that my view of the God he worships is a caricature, my reading of Instituts depicts a monster of a God, One Who cannot exist except in the minds of vainglorious individuals. A God Who neither deserves worship, nor can claim to be righteous.We had a topic recently here discussing the concept of "Irresistible Grace". Assuming one of us heathen mormunz were to have been among the "chosen/elect", no, he could not refuse salvation. That's what "irresistible" means. Even I, who despise the mythical Calvinist God, were I to find myself elected, that God would force me to love Him, and to hate my family who were thrust down to hell.LehiI cannot conceive of such a being…often Calvinist wonder why we have so much trouble with their views. It is the an insult to all we believe. My Father (Baptist Minister) considered it a cult within the Christian Church…it is the worst form of elitism, a claim often leveled at Mormons.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 16, 2011 Author Posted November 16, 2011 Pa Pa:Such a "god" would be worse than Satan. For Satan only takes those who want to be with him.Exactly...how do you force someone to love you?
TAO Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Exactly...how do you force someone to love you?I am guessing, by some degree of manipulation and/or pressure =/.The problem is, in manipulating them, or pressuring them, you lose part of what it means to love them... and so your love for them becomes less sincere. This makes it difficult... why bother changing someone to love you if you lose that love in the process? =(Yes... I must say... a God who did not allow free will would not be worth serving, imho. Edited November 16, 2011 by TAO
mnn727 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 [This view] depicts a monster of a God, One Who cannot exist except in the minds of vainglorious individuals. A God Who neither deserves worship, nor can claim to be righteous.This really says it all.
LeSellers Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Exactly...how do you force someone to love you?The Calvinist God may have other methods, but we read, in 1984, how Big Brother got people to love him. It involved rats, ersatz gin, and chess, as I recall.Lehi Edited November 16, 2011 by LeSellers
LeSellers Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 This really says it all.You are nice to say so.Lehi
jo1952 Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) As a Mormon with all our cherished beliefs, I have a few questions. There is a theology out there that believes that God has chosen “from before the foundations of the world” (kind of has an LDS sound to it) whom he will save and who he will consign to hell; for no other reason that his “good will and pleasure”, and there is nothing that any can do to change this. This could mean that you were chosen for heaven and you children and grandchildren for hell. This doctrine; which has been spreading since the 16th century, continues to gain tractionKeep in mind you are chosen for nothing you ever did right or wrong (according to this doctrine). This means there is not free will (a most cherished doctrine of ours) nor can one “choose” to follow Christ. Christ must choose you…or already has.Three questions…If this is the God that you encountered, would you reject him, if he rejected your family just because of his “good will and pleasure”?Could you reject him or is your fate sealed?How do you love, or can you love such a being?Keep in mind there is no other church on earth that is based on the possible divine nature of man than ours…this doctrine I speak of is based on the total depravity of man.Hi PaPa,There are some other observations I have made concerning this very issue which I have met head on with in many, many threads on other websites. Here are some of them:* Those who are elect don't deserve to be elect; likewise, those who go to hell deserve hell, and have no room to complain because God didn't need to save anybody if He didn't want to since even the elect are depraved. Hence, even those who end up in hell are still thankful for a merciful God who would save even a few of His wretched creations.* If you ARE an elect, but fail to hear and accept the Gospel while on the earth, then you have blown it. (???!!!! Huh???!!!)* Since you only get your one chance in the flesh, this clears the path for justifying the Orthodox Christian to do whatever it takes to convert you to THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM; i.e., Judge, humiliate, threaten, lie about you, ad hom attack, mock, etc. Otherwise, they would not be doing all they could to save you - even though they have nothing to do with identifying who of mankind is Elect. Also, they do this even if it turns out they are not elect. They do it because they love a god who is merciful enough to save a wretched Elect whom God Himself created. I think this creates a very misguided martyr complex among those who believe this way.* Their belief system is the only one which can save you, since they have figured out what beliefs God demands of His elect (even though their belief system has already claimed that the elect have no choice but to BE elect). So again...Huh??!!!To me, this is an indication that, contrary to God's professed love for us (seeing as how He sent His only Begotten Son to die for us), God obviously does not love His creation enough to try to save them all - since only a few are "Elect".I do not believe they really understand what their beliefs look like, and are thus blind to the Truth. Yet they believe that WE are the ones who have been brainwashed....sighNOW, to answer your questions. Within that paradigm our fate is sealed regardless of what we do. Even loving god, should we be one of the fortunate Elect, would not be a choice. Sounds closer to Satan's plan. Also sounds more like God created robotic, artificial intelligent followers. All of the above completely denies the attributes and qualities of a loving, fair, and merciful God.Best regards,jo Edited November 16, 2011 by jo1952 1
Calm Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Pa Pa:Such a "god" would be worse than Satan. For Satan only takes those who want to be with him.But this is likely, in my view, not by choice, but because of limits placed upon his influence and power by God. I would not be surprised if "irresistible damnation" would be part of Satan's arsenal if it was allowed. I don't see it as a sport for Satan where he simply wants to show God he can beat him at his own game (in the sense of drawing men to him by influence rather than force).Anyone who thinks he deserves all of God's glory and honor is someone who likely thinks he deserves anything he can get his hands on and will try and get his hands on anything, IMO. Edited November 16, 2011 by calmoriah
Calm Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Exactly...how do you force someone to love you?Preprogramming.It is not force in the sense of taking away choice as far as I understand it, rather an individual is created in such a way that choosing God is the only choice he will ever consider making, but I do not understand Calvinism well enough to know whether the person who told me this concept was traditional or not in his interpretation.Perhaps it is simply something along the action of the sun in the fable, where he caused the man to remove his coat by shining so warmly upon the man, surrounding the man with his power and glory such that the man had to act in the desired way to remain comfortable.-----------------------I do think it is important to differentiate between the different interpretations/denominations of Calvinism in criticism to avoid improper criticism. I know some individuals self identified as Calvinst who have such a loving and generous nature and behaviour which they attribute to God's work and they describe their faith in such a way that I see God as understood by them as a mystery of love, justice and mercy rather than a monster. OTOH, some conceptions seem void of love and mercy with little mystery, but infinite arrogance. I don't know Calvin's teachings well enough to know what the source of the practically opposite manifestations of belief is, though. Edited November 16, 2011 by calmoriah
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 16, 2011 Author Posted November 16, 2011 I know some individuals self identified as Calvinst who have such a loving and generous natureTrue
Calm Posted November 16, 2011 Posted November 16, 2011 I am guessing, by some degree of manipulation and/or pressure =/.The problem is, in manipulating them, or pressuring them, you lose part of what it means to love them... and so your love for them becomes less sincere. This makes it difficult... why bother changing someone to love you if you lose that love in the process? =(Yes... I must say... a God who did not allow free will would not be worth serving, imho.Perhaps God in their view has set up life as sort of a maze where when one comes to a split in the path, the results of each choice are set up so that only one will appeal to the elect, the one that combined with all the other choices draw them to God. In one sense then, there is choice in that there are multiple actions that can be taken, in another sense there is no choice in that there is only one that will be taken.
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