Non-Lds, How Do You Know?

[altersteve]

Since I've never gotten a straight answer to this question out of an evangelical before, I'll ask it here.

How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus Christ is your personal Savior? How do you know the Bible is the Word of God? I don't want to hear things like "archaeology," because archaeology doesn't prove anything, and it absolutely can't prove that the Bible is inspired scripture from the mouth of the Lord. I want to know how you know, from the bottom of your hearts, that your Redeemer lives and that the Bible is His Word. For Latter-day Saints, these questions are easy to answer, but it seems to be a complex topic for evangelicals and other non-LDS Christians.

So, how do you know?

[Calm]

Since I've never gotten a straight answer to this question out of an evangelical before, I'll ask it here.

How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus Christ is your personal Savior? How do you know the Bible is the Word of God? I don't want to hear things like "archaeology," because archaeology doesn't prove anything, and it absolutely can't prove that the Bible is inspired scripture from the mouth of the Lord. I want to know how you know, from the bottom of your hearts, that your Redeemer lives and that the Bible is His Word. For Latter-day Saints, these questions are easy to answer, but it seems to be a complex topic for evangelicals and other non-LDS Christians.

So, how do you know?

Just remember that because it may not seem straight to you doesn't mean it's not straight. It may just depend on the difference of where each of you is standing (expectations and assumptions). One only has to look at how often antimormons say LDS are not being straight when they give their testimonies of Christ and the gospel and what it means to them because the LDS does not include what the antimormon thinks they should include.

[altersteve]

Just remember that because it may not seem straight to you doesn't mean it's not straight. It may just depend on the difference of where each of you is standing (expectations and assumptions). One only has to look at how often antimormons say LDS are not being straight when they give their testimonies of Christ and the gospel and what it means to them because the LDS does not include what the antimormon thinks they should include.

I understand. It just seems to me that evangelicals dance around this question a lot, so I'm just trying to understand their point of view here.

[Calm]

I'm pretty sure mudcat has answered this in the past and I know some former posters did as well as this question comes up now and again. There are also some who do a dance each and every time they post on the subject in that they keep avoiding dealing with the actual questions that people ask for clarification and support of their statements of alleged facts.

I think in part it is a desire to show up what is different to demonstrate the value of a position over another's, much like many LDS respond to requests for their testimonies focusing on the unique qualities not because they think these are the only one's that matter, but because they assume the ones they believed are shared by other Christians are given and surely don't need to be said or because they think the other is interested only in the differences while other LDS will focus on what is most important to them personally and yet others focus on what is shared to establish a foundation on which to build.

Unfortunately there are some who need the difference to be so significant, they tend to inflate that and discount the similarities leading to confusion and contention.....

Now back to the topic....

Edited October 27, 2011 by calmoriah

[ldsfaqs]

The only time evangelicals dance is when they are anti-mormons and they are trying to not look like hypocrites because they know they've been caught.

When you get down to the BRASS TACKS however..... Everyone believes for the very same kinds of reasons mormons or anyone else believes.

They have the scriptures.

They have the burning bosom.

They have the inspiration of the Holy Ghost

They have Faith

They have Evidence

etc.

[3DOP]

Since I've never gotten a straight answer to this question out of an evangelical before, I'll ask it here.

How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus Christ is your personal Savior? How do you know the Bible is the Word of God? I don't want to hear things like "archaeology," because archaeology doesn't prove anything, and it absolutely can't prove that the Bible is inspired scripture from the mouth of the Lord. I want to know how you know, from the bottom of your hearts, that your Redeemer lives and that the Bible is His Word. For Latter-day Saints, these questions are easy to answer, but it seems to be a complex topic for evangelicals and other non-LDS Christians.

So, how do you know?

I'll answer to the best of my ability. With each answer, it should be kept in mind that there is a hierarchy of knowledge. Does not the Apostle tell those who have faith, that it is "seeing through a glass darkly"? We can sometimes have moral certitude that gives us the license to act without it necessarily rising to the level of absolute certitude. I think I am right. I have greater confidence in my faith now than ever and it has been unwavering for some time. Does not this imply that faith can shrink or increase? What is this except to say that our beliefs are subject to fluctuation as opposed to the absolute knowledge that your questions seem to imply.

1) This would rise to the highest level of knowledge in my opinion because it is ratified by both reason and faith. The First Vatican Council teaches that we may (and should) have knowledge of the existence of God even without faith.

2) I am not sure what you are getting at here. Beginning in the natural order with a knowledge of a good God who makes a beautiful world and me to live in it, it seems reasonable that He would desire to reveal more to me. In my opinion, the story of the Gospel of Christ, as taught by the Catholic Church, describes my condition, suggests my need, provides the remedy, and a reason to attempt to unite myself with Jesus Christ on His Cross. All of this, I understand is by God's grace, by what we call supernatural revelation, that which cannot be known by reason. I am not yet saved in the sense that I have an ability to reject God while I yet live, but if I should someday attain to Heaven, it cannot be by my own merits, but only through Him.

3) I believe everything the Holy Catholic Church teaches. She proposes 73 books as canonical Scripture. I have confidence in the Scripture which comes from the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. I propose that it is the Church that establishes the Scriptures, not vice versa.

4) From the bottom of my heart how I know? I am sorry. I am not sure that I can answer you adequately. I don't understand it completely myself. I don't think I do it. I don't suggest that I have faith through my own initiative. I think I retain my faith by removing obstacles. I also recognize that I have an obligation to positively nurture my faith so that it grows. Some would scoff at this as though we may willy nilly expose ourselves to every clamoring voice that proclaims a different and anti-Christian message. "Man is a giddy thing" said Sr Benedic at the conclusion of Much Ado About Nothing. And I am as giddy as any.

5) I know anything through faith, reason, or both. They interact, but clearly, supernatural faith gives less certainty. Do we not see people changing their minds about religion much more frequently than they change their minds about whether it is uncomfortable to be in freezing whether without proper clothing? I KNOW that I am not intended to dwell in subzero temperatures without protection. I cannot claim that my faith, great as it is, rises to such a level of knowledge.

I must offer a disclaimer in saying that if anything I have said here is in conflict with the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church, I understand that it is I who am wrong, and I will endeavor to modify my opinions.

Edited October 27, 2011 by 3DOP

[diglot]

How do you know God exists?

I accept it on faith, and I would say I have quasi-empirical evidence that he does. To cut a long story short, we lived in a haunted house when I was a child. So I know for a fact that the supernatural realm (or whatever you want to call it) does indeed exist. The existence of God seems like a necessary corollary to that.

How do you know Jesus Christ is your personal Savior?

Because I prayed the sinner's prayer. Ha! Just kidding.

It is just something I accept on faith.

How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?

I don't think that it is. Plus "word of God" is ambiguous.

I don't believe the Bible is inerrant, and don't really consider it inspired.

I want to know how you know, from the bottom of your hearts, that your Redeemer lives ...

I don't know for certain. I don't expect to know. If I did, it wouldn't be faith.

Edited October 27, 2011 by diglot

[altersteve]

I don't know for certain. I don't expect to know. If I did, it wouldn't be faith.

If you don't know for certain, then do you accept the possibility that you could be wrong? And why wouldn't it be faith if you knew it? I see no difference, for example, between having faith that God exists and knowing that He exists; they're not mutually exclusive, at least. So since Latter-day Saints claim to know for certain that Jesus Christ lives, do you not believe that we truly have faith in Him?

Edited October 27, 2011 by altersteve

[diglot]

If you don't know for certain, then do you accept the possibility that you could be wrong? And why wouldn't it be faith if you knew it? I see no difference between having faith that God exists and knowing that He exists. They're not mutually exclusive, at least. So since Latter-day Saints claim to know for certain that Jesus is the Christ, do you not believe that we truly have faith in Him?

Yes, I am fully cognizant of the fact that I could be wrong about my particular religious beliefs.

Why wouldn't it be faith if I knew it? I know 2 + 2 = 4 and so I don't need faith to believe 2 + 2 = 4 (because I know it). I think we may just have different ideas of what exactly "faith" is.

I think LDS have faith in Christ. I don't think I've ever said anything to the contrary. I am curious as to how you can claim that LDS "know for certain that Jesus is the Christ"? Is this some sort of reference to the "burning in the bosom" test that the missionaries have repeatedly told me about? If so, experiencing some sort of spiritual euphoria after praying and asking God about something isn't really my idea of confirmation. It may be for other people, but I am too much of a skeptic. Apart from receiving a revelation like Paul did on his way to Damascus, I don't know how else I could ever say for certain that I know Jesus was resurrected and is Lord. I am happy with merely believing and hoping that my beliefs about God and Jesus are true.

Edited October 27, 2011 by diglot

[altersteve]

Yes, I am fully cognizant of the fact that I could be wrong about my particular religious beliefs.

Why wouldn't it be faith if I knew it? I know 2 + 2 = 4 and so I don't need faith to believe 2 + 2 = 4 (because I know it). I think we may just have different ideas of what exactly "faith" is.

I think LDS have faith in Christ. I don't think I've ever said anything to the contrary. I am curious as to how you can claim that LDS "know for certain that Jesus is the Christ"? Is this some sort of reference to the "burning in the bosom" test that the missionaries have repeatedly told me about? If so, experiencing some sort of spiritual euphoria after praying and asking God about something isn't really my idea of confirmation. It may be for other people, but I am too much of a skeptic. Apart from receiving a revelation like Paul did on his way to Damascus, I don't know how else I could ever say for certain that I know Jesus was resurrected and is Lord. I am happy with merely believing and hoping that my beliefs about God and Jesus are true.

First, thinking that we believe that you can get a spiritual confirmation by simply "asking God about something" is your first mistake. It takes a whole lot more than that.

And to Latter-day Saints, having faith in Jesus Christ = completely placing your trust in Him.

Edited October 27, 2011 by altersteve

[ERayR]

I accept it on faith, and I would say I have quasi-empirical evidence that he does. To cut a long story short, we lived in a haunted house when I was a child. So I know for a fact that the supernatural realm (or whatever you want to call it) does indeed exist. The existence of God seems like a necessary corollary to that.

Because I prayed the sinner's prayer. Ha! Just kidding.

It is just something I accept on faith.

I don't think that it is. Plus "word of God" is ambiguous.

I don't believe the Bible is inerrant, and don't really consider it inspired.

I don't know for certain. I don't expect to know. If I did, it wouldn't be faith.

I think we all follow a similar path except for me I woke up one day and could feel the Holy Ghost testifying that those things I had faith in were true. From that time on things began to make sense.

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

You wrote:

Since I've never gotten a straight answer to this question out of an evangelical before, I'll ask it here.

As an evangelical, I'm happy to answer your question(s).

How do you know God exists? How do you know Jesus Christ is your personal Savior? How do you know the Bible is the Word of God?

An answer that you might accept as "straight" is made difficult or problematic by the fact that "how do you know" questions can be taken in several ways. You might be asking "what chain of events led you to accept this idea as true," or you might be asking "what reason or reasons do you find personally convincing at the present time that this idea is true," or "what is the actual ground or foundation on which this truth rests," or possibly something else. Most people assume that "how do you know" questions are straightforward and unproblematic; they are not. Epistemology is a complex matter.

C. S. Lewis once wrote, "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else" ("Is Theology Poetry?" in The Weight of Glory: And Other Addresses [New York: HarperCollins, 1980], 140). We not only have evidence that shows that God exists, that the Bible is the word of God, etc., but it is also the case that for us the truth of Christianity illuminates everything we see.

It is one thing to know, or believe, that God exists; it is another thing to have faith in God, to trust in him. Many people are convinced that God exists but he plays no significant role in the way they live. It turns out that in a sense my answer to all three questions can be rolled into one, though some clarifications and distinctions will have to be made.

A short answer to your question is that I know that God exists because he has revealed himself. God reveals himself in his creation, in my conscience, in Christ, and in Scripture. I am daily confronted anew with the evidence of nature that an infinite or transcendent, yet personal, Being is responsible for the world in which I live. I am also daily confronted anew with the fact that I am a creature accountable to a moral standard not of human invention, a standard against which I fall short. These two realities, one external to me and one internal to me, appear to me utterly convincing proof that God exists. Apart from God's revelation in Christ and in Scripture, though, I would not know much about this God or anything about how to relate to him. God's revelation in Christ is known to me in and through his revelation in Scripture (the Bible), so that for me these two are inseparable (even though distinguishable). This dual revelation of God, both personal (in Christ) and propositional (in Scripture), reveals God in a way that is concrete and life-changing in a way that the general revelation in creation and conscience does not.

Viewed in this way, my answer to all three of your questions is that the "how" of my knowing these things is divine revelation. God reveals himself to me in all four of the ways just mentioned; that is how I know that God exists. God reveals himself in Christ as Savior and by the Holy Spirit convicts me (through my conscience) of my sin and therefore of my need of salvation, and that same Holy Spirit has made known to me (through Scripture) that Christ is the answer to that need and has instilled trust or confidence in Christ as meeting that need for me personally; that is how I know that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior. Since it is through Scripture that I come to know God in this way and to know that Jesus Christ is my Savior, the one who reconciles me to God, in practical terms this is how I know that Scripture is the word of God. That is, the Bible is God revealing himself in words; ultimately, then, I know that the Bible is God's word because it is, because in it I recognize God speaking, and specifically God speaking about Christ as my Savior.

This knowledge of God, Christ, and Scripture is not separate from or pitted against the factual evidence. God makes himself known in the physical world as Creator; the scientific facts testify to this reality. God revealed Christ to be his divine Son through his teaching, miracles, and especially his resurrection from the dead; the historical facts testify to and corroborate these things to be true. God reveals himself in the words of Scripture; the teaching of Jesus Christ about the nature of Scripture, the evidences of fulfilled prophecies, and various factual evidences provide different sorts of attestations to and corroborative evidence for the inspiration of the Bible as the word of God. I never pit facts or evidences against revelation because for me all facts are revelatory. God reveals himself in every scientific measurement, in every historical event, in every text, in every experience. God is the light by which all facts are properly known, and in turn all facts properly understood testify to God, to his Son, and to his written Word. As fallible and fallen creatures, people often misinterpret God's revelations, but that's our fault, not his.

[diglot]

First, thinking that we believe that you can get a spiritual confirmation by simply "asking God about something" is your first mistake. It takes a whole lot more than that.

What else is involved? Being sincere? Fasting?

And to Latter-day Saints, having faith in Jesus Christ = placing your trust in Him.

That applies to all Christians that I know of (including myself). I don't see what you are driving at with this point.

[ERayR]

If you don't know for certain, then do you accept the possibility that you could be wrong? And why wouldn't it be faith if you knew it? I see no difference, for example, between having faith that God exists and knowing that He exists; they're not mutually exclusive, at least. So since Latter-day Saints claim to know for certain that Jesus Christ lives, do you not believe that we truly have faith in Him?

Hey I think we all have to accept the possibility we are wrong. I don't think a Latter-day Saint's testimony of Jesus Christ is neceessarily more compelling than anyone elses. A testimony of Jesus Christ comes through the Holy Ghost no matter who gets it.

[altersteve]

What else is involved? Being sincere? Fasting?

It involves a sincere desire to obtain the knowledge that God desires to give you. And sometimes God requires us to go to great lengths in order to get it. This whole issue is something that differs from person to person.

That applies to all Christians that I know of (including myself). I don't see what you are driving at with this point.

I'm saying that one can know for certain that Jesus is the Christ and yet still have faith (trust) in Him. They're not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, you can't really have faith in Him unless you know He lives.

Hey I think we all have to accept the possibility we are wrong. I don't think a Latter-day Saint's testimony of Jesus Christ is neceessarily more compelling than anyone elses. A testimony of Jesus Christ comes through the Holy Ghost no matter who gets it.

I know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that we have a more compelling testimony. What I said was the wrong thing to say, or at least the wrong way to say it. My apologies.

Edited October 27, 2011 by altersteve

[diglot]

It involves a sincere desire to obtain the knowledge that God desires to give you. And sometimes God requires us to go to great lengths in order to get it. This whole issue is something that differs from person to person.

Regardless of what one does in order to receive this testimony, how can you say that it gives you certain knowledge regarding the issue you were inquiring about.

Back when I was 15-16, I had what I believe to be an encounter with the Holy Spirit. Some people might call it being "baptized in the Spirit", others might call it a "testimony from the Holy Ghost". In fact, after I described it to one of the Mormon missionaries, he said that it was a testimony from the Holy Ghost.

I have never experienced anything like that in the past ten years since. Sure I have had plenty of spiritual euphoric moments (usually in the context of a church), but they are nothing compared to this experience that happened ten years ago. This experience occurred once I had finished reading a book on people who have been killed rather than deny their faith in Christ. So if I was to take my experience as a "testimony", it would be a testimony to the fact that Jesus is Lord, not necessarily a testimony that some other peripheral belief of mine is correct, or that my particular stream of Christianity is correct (I was a very conservative evangelical back then).

With all this said, I am still cognizant of the fact that it simply could just have been the mere result of a chemical reaction occurring in my brain with no involvement from God or just some generic spiritual experience from God that people from every religion experiences. Both of this possibilities preclude me from knowing for certain that my experience gives me certain knowledge about things. I don't see how LDS who have similar testimonies, and people from other religions who do too, could claim that their testimony from God gives them absolute certain knowledge that what they believe is true.

I'm saying that one can know for certain that Jesus is the Christ and yet still have faith (trust) in Him. They're not mutually exclusive at all. In fact, you can't really have faith in Him unless you know He lives.

I strongly disagree. I think that faith is having hope about what we can not know for certain. I know my wife exists, therefore I do not have faith that she exists.

Why do you think you can not really have faith in Jesus unless you know he lives? To me the exact opposite is true.

Edited October 27, 2011 by diglot

[ERayR]

Regardless of what one does in order to receive this testimony, how can you say that it gives you certain knowledge regarding the issue you were inquiring about.

I don't but it does. I don't have the words to explain it but once you have felt that conviction you will understand.

[diglot]

I don't but it does. I don't have the words to explain it but once you have felt that conviction you will understand.

So why should I believe your testimony instead of a Catholic's testimony? Or a Muslim's testimony?

People from all different kinds of religious systems claim to have had testimonies from God that their particular religious system is true. Knowing this should give anyone (no matter how powerful their spiritual testimony was) a certain amount of humility and awareness that perhaps they can not know for absolute certain that their particular religious beliefs were actually being validated by God.

Edited October 27, 2011 by diglot

[ERayR]

So why should I believe your testimony instead of a Catholic's testimony? Or a Muslim's testimony?

People from all different kinds of religious systems claim to have had testimonies from God that their particular religious system is true. Knowing this should give anyone (no matter how powerful their spiritual testimony was) a certain amount of humility and awareness that perhaps they can not know for absolute certain that their particular religious beliefs were actually being validated by God.

I am not asking you to believe my testimony. That choice is yours. I was only answering your question.

diglot, on 27 October 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

Regardless of what one does in order to receive this testimony, how can you say that it gives you certain knowledge regarding the issue you were inquiring about.

I don't want you to take any action based on my testimony. That gives me too much power in your life. You bear the sole responsibility for your life. You do not value my experiences nearly as much as I do so if you want something you can value get your own personal revelation (testamony).

Edited October 27, 2011 by ERayR

[diglot]

I am not asking you to believe my testimony. That choice is yours. I was only answering your question. "

So what about the second paragraph I wrote?

You do not think that the fact that these sorts of testimonies being found in all sorts of widely different religious systems should give people a little bit of humility and self-awareness that perhaps they can not know for certain that their particular religious beliefs were being validated by God?

If a Muslim prays to God specifically about whether the Qur'an is true, and receives a testimony that it is, what do you do with that? It wouldn't make you think that maybe, just maybe, your own testimony is just a generic type of spiritual affirmation that all people can receive from God and that God isn't confirming the specific religious belief they prayed about? Or that maybe, just maybe, everyone's testimonies are chemical reactions in the brain independent of any supernatural intervention?

Edited October 27, 2011 by diglot

[ERayR]

So what about the second paragraph I wrote?

You do not think that the fact that these sorts of testimonies being found in all sorts of widely different religious systems should give people a little bit of humility and self-awareness that perhaps they can not know for certain that their particular religious beliefs were being validated by God?

If a Muslim prays to God specifically about whether the Qur'an is true, and receives a testimony that it is, what do you do with that? It wouldn't make you think that maybe, just maybe, your own testimony is just a generic type of spiritual affirmation that all people can receive from God and that God isn't confirming the specific religious belief they prayed about?

Have you read the Qur'an? Those I know who have tell me there is a lot in it that is good and true. I would not expect the Holy Ghost to lie to him and tell him it was worthless, especially when it may be all he has available.

As for knowing for certain yes I can know for certain what that God is validating my particular religious belief. For Me.

To reiterate: I don't want you to take any action based on my testimony. That gives me too much power in your life. You bear the sole responsibility for your life. You do not value my experiences nearly as much as I do so if you want something you can value get your own personal revelation (testamony).

[Calm]

Daniel Peterson, who should know about this kind of thing since this is in the area of his professional expertise, states that Muslims do not approach spiritual witnesses or confirmation of their faith in the same way LDS do. IIRC, he has asked a number of Muslims about their spiritual experiences as well as explored their writings. However, I can't remember exactly how he described it so if you are interested, you should email him.

I have discussed the topic with a Buddhist and he said it wasn't how it worked in his religion either. I am afraid it was too long ago to remember what he said, should have taken notes, would have remembered it then but if I hear something, it's literally in one ear and out the other.....purely a visual learner.

My spiritual experiences actually have very little to do with feelings/emotions beyond a sense of clarity and stillness. Usually my mind is running two or three ideas going on at once, jumping back and forth between them, observing one thing while calculating another and analyzing something else. In these moments however it is as if all background noises not so much as disappear as focus on the one thought which is generally something I had been dwelling on but was not dealing with at the moment. And the thought supplies with new information most of the time, on occasion it's experience a emphatic yes or no about something I'm considering undertaking or even had thought was settled, had made my decision only to be hit over the head with the better answer.

Most of the time when this experience is about whether or not I should do something, the answer I get is completely different from what I expected. I figure if I've got it more or less right, the Spirit doesn't feel the need to interfere, but if I'm going down the wrong path he'll interceded if I've left the door open for him.

[ERayR]

Daniel Peterson, who should know about this kind of thing since this is in the area of his professional expertise, states that Muslims do not approach spiritual witnesses or confirmation of their faith in the same way LDS do. IIRC, he has asked a number of Muslims about their spiritual experiences as well as explored their writings. However, I can't remember exactly how he described it so if you are interested, you should email him.

I have discussed the topic with a Buddhist and he said it wasn't how it worked in his religion either. I am afraid it was too long ago to remember what he said, should have taken notes, would have remembered it then but if I hear something, it's literally in one ear and out the other.....purely a visual learner.

My spiritual experiences actually have very little to do with feelings/emotions beyond a sense of clarity and stillness. Usually my mind is running two or three ideas going on at once, jumping back and forth between them, observing one thing while calculating another and analyzing something else. In these moments however it is as if all background noises not so much as disappear as focus on the one thought which is generally something I had been dwelling on but was not dealing with at the moment. And the thought supplies with new information most of the time, on occasion it's experience a emphatic yes or no about something I'm considering undertaking or even had thought was settled, had made my decision only to be hit over the head with the better answer.

Most of the time when this experience is about whether or not I should do something, the answer I get is completely different from what I expected. I figure if I've got it more or less right, the Spirit doesn't feel the need to interfere, but if I'm going down the wrong path he'll interceded if I've left the door open for him.

Ah and then comes that feeling of peace and confirmation and you know that it is right.

[diglot]

Have you read the Qur'an? Those I know who have tell me there is a lot in it that is good and true. I would not expect the Holy Ghost to lie to him and tell him it was worthless, especially when it may be all he has available.

Yes, I have read it multiple times and studied Islam quite a bit.

I think you are kind of missing my point though. What if the Muslim was specifically praying that the Qur'an is fully the word of God. In other words, not praying if it contains some truth, but praying that it contains all the truth and nothing but the truth.

If you then say that God would still validate to that Muslim that there is some truth in the Qur'an (despite the fact this hypothetical Muslim prayed as to whether the Qur'an is fully truthful), then anyone can just say the same thing about LDS testimonies about the BoM. In other words, even if the BoM is a huge fraud by Joseph Smith, God would still validate it to people since it contains some truth in it (i.e. it contains truthful statements on how to live a righteous life). If that's the case, then an LDS testimony counts for nothing and shouldn't be taken by any LDS as proof that the BoM is true.

As for knowing for certain yes I can know for certain what that God is validating my particular religious belief. For Me.

So while God may be validating your particular religious beliefs for you, you wouldn't go as far to say that God is saying these religious beliefs (e.g. Joseph Smith was a prophet) are objectively true (i.e. true to every person on earth)?

To reiterate: I don't want you to take any action based on my testimony. That gives me too much power in your life. You bear the sole responsibility for your life. You do not value my experiences nearly as much as I do so if you want something you can value get your own personal revelation (testamony).

I wouldn't take any action based on anyone's testimony. I just want you to admit that there is no way of knowing for certain as to whether your testimony validates your particular religious claims as objective truths.

Edited October 27, 2011 by diglot

[diglot]

Daniel Peterson, who should know about this kind of thing since this is in the area of his professional expertise, states that Muslims do not approach spiritual witnesses or confirmation of their faith in the same way LDS do. IIRC, he has asked a number of Muslims about their spiritual experiences as well as explored their writings. However, I can't remember exactly how he described it so if you are interested, you should email him.

Regardless of whether Muslims do this or not, it is indisputable that people of other religious beliefs claim to have had God validate their religious beliefs. It is most definitely not something unique to Mormonism.