Ariarates Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 The Book of Mormon is a test of our faith. You either believe it or you don't. It was never meant to be proven in the way you expect.How can you believe in something while at the same time maintaining that it cannot be proven? What's the difference between that and believing in unicorns?
ldsfaqs Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) ok. Then show me the studies from non LDS archeologists that admit ANY evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.ok. Then show me the studies from non LDS archeologists that admit ANY evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.Why don't you first show me any non-LDS archeologists that even STUDY the Book of Mormon, let alone being familiar with it's evidences and scholarship???Further, why don't you condemn Jews and Christians for 100's of years being the ONLY ONES who studied and sought for Biblical evidences before atheists came along and started referring to it???Anyway, you can stick your head in the sand and think mormonism has no evidences for it simply because non-LDS haven't gotten much into it yet, or you can study for yourself and judge for yourself.I would recommend you start with the book and video "Lehi in the Wilderness - 81 Evidences".Mormonism has TONS of evidences which validate all kinds of it's claims on every subject.Let me clue you in on a little secret also.... Most of us wouldn't be mormon if there WAS NOT plenty of evidence for it's claims well over other religions claims. Most of us have no interest in man-made religion, people claiming stuff without solid backing behind the claims etc. You're talking to well educated and well informed people, many of which are converts, and have converted for well educated and intellectual reasons, not only "spiritual" reasons or "feelings". I know for myself, I spent years in many religions, reading the Bible for myself, not being beholden to any religions particular ideology, and thus seeing for myself that non of the religions in full and accurate practiced and believed what the Bible stated. Only when I came upon mormonism did a religion in full and accurately fit the book. Further, studying it's history and knowing the Bible, it was the only religion which had plenty of evidences, testimony and witnesses for everything in it's establishment, had additional revelation and scripture, was set up and operated exactly how the Biblical Church should be set up and operated, having the same kind of revelations, witnesses, etc. related to it's establishment, and on and on. I even left the Church once and was anti-mormon and anti-religion to a degree because I was ignorant on a couple of subjects. But, I when I was ready, continued to educate myself, and that's when I finally knew that the Church was literally true, was God's Church again on the earth, and most certainly not another man-made religion.Anyway, go to an LDS bookstore and read some books if you're in need of evidences of the Churches claims. Don't be a fool and pass us off simply because it's our faith. Compare the scholarship for yourself. We have some of the best scholars and intellectuals in their fields. The same professionalism is applied to mormonism. But you aren't going to see that unless you study for yourself. Edited October 22, 2011 by ldsfaqs
Peppermint Patty Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I'm sure that no non-LDS archaeologist claims that the BoM is based on historical Nephites/Lamanites, and I'm sure that they don't think there is overwhelming evidence that the BoM is historical, but I don't believe it's accurate to say that all non-LDS archaeologists would claim there is no evidence (your "any evidence") for it.Michael,Good to see you. I'm not sure if you are aware but the D-News has removed almost all of the comments from your articles in the archive. It's too bad, I thought your articles were a breath of fresh air and most of the comments to them were pretty thought provoking and compelling. Nice to see you here.
stevedallas Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 The Book of Mormon is accepted on faith, just as the Bible is. I get tired of the double standard Christians apply to the Book of Mormon. It usually comes down to: "We've found the places described in the Bible, but we haven't found the places described in the Book of Mormon." Well, we've found the places described in Greek mythology too. The fact is, faithful Bible archaeology is on the same shaky ground that Book of Mormon archaeology is. From the perspective of mainstream science, the Bible is ancient mythology and the Book of Mormon is modern mythology.But you do not just accept it on faith. You do not just say "I believe it is true". You make unequivocal claims that it IS true. So, show me the evidence. And no, the Bible is NOT on the same shaky ground that the Book of Mormon is. What you said is a blatantly false statement. We can walk the streets of Jerusalem and Bethlehem, etc. Archaeology has discovered and shown various places and events described in the Bible to be true. The Book of Mormon cannot claim anything like that. You dodge my questions to show me evidence with posts that are simply not true.
stevedallas Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 You got that all wrong. I did not write the book, I am not responsible for its claims or its production, and I am under no obligation to satisfy anyone's curiosity that it is true. God is responsible for the production of that book, and He alone claims responsibility for convincing anyone of its truth. He reveals the truth of it to anyone He likes, and withholds that knowledge from anyone He likes. I have no control over His choices and decisions. If you want to know of its truth, it is between you and Him. If He chooses to withhold that knowledge from you, that is His decision I am afraid; there isn't a lot that I can do about that. The only thing I can do is to testify that He has revealed that truth to me. But I have no control over his decision to reveal it to you.While you did not write it, you claim very definitively that it is true. When one makes a claim like that, they have that burden of proof. It is a little sad for me that you cannot come close to giving any evidence at all. You have chosen to dodge the issues and I will respect your tacit admission that you cannot provide evidence to your claim.You wasted your time then, didn't you. I never claimed to be able to provide archaeological evidence that the Book of Mormon is true, and you are barking up the wrong tree trying to look for one.It is never a waste a time to gain an admission that you have no historical or archeological proof or evidence to support the Book of Mormon. I will accept that what I requested can only be done with the Bible. Ergo, the Book of Mormon is nothing more than a fictional book that contains Christian teachings. Thank you.Good for you; I am glad you have the evidence you require for the truth of the Bible. The Bible is certainly true, and I am glad to hear that you believe that too. I hope that your conviction is equally strong that Jesus rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and will some day return again.Please do not twist my words. I never said The Bible has evidence that makes it true. All I said is that the Bible describes places and events that can be backed up by history, archeology and geography, something the Book of Mormon lacks. The fact we can do that with the Bible only gives the book a measure of credibility.Not at all; see above.Then the lands of the Book of Mormon are no more real than the land of Oz.Let me assure you that it is!If it were, it could pass the same test that the Bible passes regarding history, geography and archeology. You are hoping in vain. The Book of Mormon is a test of our faith. You either believe it or you don't. It was never meant to be proven in the way you expect.What I request would not prove the Book of Mormon. I simply hold it to the same standard I hold the Bible. It fails.
OUmd Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Me, and I believe the great majority of Mormons. I was not excluding the odd ones from Mormonism.Could you point me to the section in the book you claim to be true on all levels that supports the belittling of others?
stevedallas Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Why don't you first show me any non-LDS archeologists that even STUDY the Book of Mormon, let alone being familiar with it's evidences and scholarship???One would not need to study the Book of Mormon to discover the cities or locations described in the Book of Mormon.Further, why don't you condemn Jews and Christians for 100's of years being the ONLY ONES who studied and sought for Biblical evidences before atheists came along and started referring to it???Does who studied it or found it detract from the veracity of it? Anyway, you can stick your head in the sand and think mormonism has no evidences for it simply because non-LDS haven't gotten much into it yet, or you can study for yourself and judge for yourself.I have studied. The books I have studied are written by LDS scholars with no corroberation from any non-lds sources. I would recommend you start with the book and video "Lehi in the Wilderness - 81 Evidences".Mormonism has TONS of evidences which validate all kinds of it's claims on every subject.I have read that, and I have read "Voices from the Dust." Both fascinating, but are also stretches of reason not supported by anyone not LDS. Truth would be corroborated by even those who are not LDS. I asked for NON LDS evidence. Even atheists acknowledge that archeological finds were discussed in the Bible, though they do not believe in God. I would be happy with the same kind of thing from the Book of Mormon.Let me clue you in on a little secret also.... Most of us wouldn't be mormon if there WAS NOT plenty of evidence for it's claims well over other religions claims. Most of us have no interest in man-made religion, people claiming stuff without solid backing behind the claims etc. You're talking to well educated and well informed people, many of which are converts, and have converted for well educated and intellectual reasons, not only "spiritual" reasons or "feelings". I know for myself, I spent years in many religions, reading the Bible for myself, not being beholden to any religions particular ideology, and thus seeing for myself that non of the religions in full and accurate practiced and believed what the Bible stated. Only when I came upon mormonism did a religion in full and accurately fit the book. Further, studying it's history and knowing the Bible, it was the only religion which had plenty of evidences, testimony and witnesses for everything in it's establishment, had additional revelation and scripture, was set up and operated exactly how the Biblical Church should be set up and operated, having the same kind of revelations, witnesses, etc. related to it's establishment, and on and on. I even left the Church once and was anti-mormon and anti-religion to a degree because I was ignorant on a couple of subjects. But, I when I was ready, continued to educate myself, and that's when I finally knew that the Church was literally true, was God's Church again on the earth, and most certainly not another man-made religion.Yes. Many intelligent people are LDS. And if you have all that evidence you speak of, where is it?Anyway, go to an LDS bookstore and read some books if you're in need of evidences of the Churches claims. Don't be a fool and pass us off simply because it's our faith. Compare the scholarship for yourself. We have some of the best scholars and intellectuals in their fields. The same professionalism is applied to mormonism. But you aren't going to see that unless you study for yourself.I have.
citizen28 Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 But you do not just accept it on faith. You do not just say "I believe it is true". You make unequivocal claims that it IS true. So, show me the evidence. And no, the Bible is NOT on the same shaky ground that the Book of Mormon is. What you said is a blatantly false statement. We can walk the streets of Jerusalem and Bethlehem, etc. Archaeology has discovered and shown various places and events described in the Bible to be true. The Book of Mormon cannot claim anything like that. You dodge my questions to show me evidence with posts that are simply not true.Greek mythology mentions real places. Why don't you believe in Greek mythology?
zerinus Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 How can you believe in something while at the same time maintaining that it cannot be proven? What's the difference between that and believing in unicorns?In the same way that I can believe in the miracles or the resurrection of Jesus Christ, even though it cannot be "proven".
zerinus Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 What I request would not prove the Book of Mormon. I simply hold it to the same standard I hold the Bible. It fails.Perhaps it does; that proves what?
zerinus Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Could you point me to the section in the book you claim to be true on all levels that supports the belittling of others?I don't recall that I did. I believe that the majority of LDS believe that the Book of Mormon is true in all the ways I have mentioned; but I acknowledge that one can differ form that opinion and still be a faithful member of the Church.
stevedallas Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Greek mythology mentions real places. Why don't you believe in Greek mythology?Apples and oranges. Greek mythology does not claim to be true. The Bible does and the Book of Mormon does. Would you care to try again, sir?In Christ
stevedallas Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Perhaps it does; that proves what?It proves that the Book of Mormon is a religious fictional book that talks about fictional places but has a great message, much like many of the books in the religious fiction genre
stevedallas Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I don't recall that I did. I believe that the majority of LDS believe that the Book of Mormon is true in all the ways I have mentioned; but I acknowledge that one can differ form that opinion and still be a faithful member of the Church.So I could be a faithful member if I accept all the teaching except those that claim that the Book of mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet?
ERayR Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 So I could be a faithful member if I accept all the teaching except those that claim that the Book of mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet?Why would you want to be if you don't believe?
citizen28 Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Apples and oranges. Greek mythology does not claim to be true. The Bible does and the Book of Mormon does. Would you care to try again, sir?In ChristNot sure where the Bible claims to be true. Greek mythology was 'true' to ancient Greeks. The point is, it's completely unimpressive that the Bible mentions real places like Jerusalem. The writers of the Bible myth were obviously well aware of the local geography, which served as a setting for their stories. And who cares about Bible geography anyway? People really want to know if the accounts of miracles and the teachings in the Bible (and Book of Mormon) are true.
John Larsen Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 I mean that I see the endowment, eternal marriage, and three degrees of glory in it. Strange, right?When I was a child, I would spend time at my grandparents house. In their basement they had this great wood grain paneling which I would stare it. It was cut with some funky wood that showed lots of interesting patterns. The longer I stared at it, the more patterns would emerge. And once I started seeing a particular kind of pattern more of that kind would follow. So if I started seeing faces, I would see lots of faces. If I started seeing animals, I would see lots of animals.I think this says more about me than the stylish wall coverings. 1
stevedallas Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 Why would you want to be if you don't believe?Don't believe in what? I believe in the moral teachings, I belive in what is taught about following Christ. I like the FHE and Home teaching, etc. would that be enough?
Daniel Peterson Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) There's definitely eternal progression in it:"And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one" (3 Nephi 28:10).If you're going to be like X, and X is like Y, you're going to be like Y, too.. Edited October 23, 2011 by Daniel Peterson 1
stevedallas Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 Not sure where the Bible claims to be true. Greek mythology was 'true' to ancient Greeks. The point is, it's completely unimpressive that the Bible mentions real places like Jerusalem. The writers of the Bible myth were obviously well aware of the local geography, which served as a setting for their stories. And who cares about Bible geography anyway? People really want to know if the accounts of miracles and the teachings in the Bible (and Book of Mormon) are true.It is like you do not have a clear understanding of corroborative evidence. I am more likely to believe the events in the Bible because I have seen other evidences that what the Bible says is accurate. The Bible says that Moses parted the Red Sea. By saying that, the Bible also is saying that Egypt and the Red Sea, etc. exists. Well, it does. It makes it a little easier to believe the extraordinary.The Book of Mormon claims that a miracle occurred in Zarahemla. Well, where is it? How can we believe a miracle when the place is fictional?
stevedallas Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 There's definitely eternal progression in it:"And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one" (3 Nephi 28:10).If you're going to be like X, and X is like Y, you're going to be like Y, too..too simplistic. If X has many triats I like and a few I don't, and Y has the traits frrom X I dislike, I can be like X in those things I like and therefore be nothing like Y
Mike Reed Posted October 23, 2011 Author Posted October 23, 2011 When I was a child, I would spend time at my grandparents house. In their basement they had this great wood grain paneling which I would stare it. It was cut with some funky wood that showed lots of interesting patterns. The longer I stared at it, the more patterns would emerge. And once I started seeing a particular kind of pattern more of that kind would follow. So if I started seeing faces, I would see lots of faces. If I started seeing animals, I would see lots of animals.I think this says more about me than the stylish wall coverings.This may be the case for one of the three I listed. Like I said... I am still digging into this stuff, and am not ready to form solid conclusions yet. Two of the the three, on the other hand... I don't think so. Anyway... I am not posting this to convince anyone. I am posting this to retract anything that I may have said to the contrary. A paradigm shift is happening. And it is happening through a correspondence analysis of certain details (present and absent) in the Book of Mormon.
citizen28 Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 It is like you do not have a clear understanding of corroborative evidence. I am more likely to believe the events in the Bible because I have seen other evidences that what the Bible says is accurate. The Bible says that Moses parted the Red Sea. By saying that, the Bible also is saying that Egypt and the Red Sea, etc. exists. Well, it does. It makes it a little easier to believe the extraordinary.The Book of Mormon claims that a miracle occurred in Zarahemla. Well, where is it? How can we believe a miracle when the place is fictional?I'm completely unimpressed. You believe in the essential parts of the Bible based on faith just as Mormons believe in the Book of Mormon based on faith. So what's the fuss?
stevedallas Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 I'm completely unimpressed. You believe in the essential parts of the Bible based on faith just as Mormons believe in the Book of Mormon based on faith. So what's the fuss?You are not unimpressed. You are stymied. Yes, we both believe the "essential parts", the difference is, yours come from a book of fictional locations that you cannot even show on a map while mine come from a book of verified locations and events.
zerinus Posted October 23, 2011 Posted October 23, 2011 It proves that the Book of Mormon is a religious fictional book that talks about fictional places but has a great message, much like many of the books in the religious fiction genreI can't stop you believing whatever you want to believe; but just for the record I disagree with you.
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