"...Because None Of Them Had The Complete Truth."

[Rob Bowman]

In this LDS video on "Joseph and the Restoration," part of the "Mormons Made Simple" series (on its own website and on YouTube), the narrator reports that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 "and told him to join none of the churches, because none of them had the complete truth":

Isn't this a misrepresentation of what Joseph himself claimed Christ had told him in that vision?

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'" (JS-H 1:19)

Edited October 18, 2011 by Rob Bowman

[altersteve]

It's only a misrepresentation if you look at it as such.

[Sky]

I think it’s just a softer, shorter way of telling about Joseph Smith’s First Vision.

I don’t see it as a misrepresentation. Mormons have never believed that other churches are completely wrong. We believe they contain parts of the truth mixed in with some error. We also believe that only our church has God’s priesthood authority.

[Rob Bowman]

Sky,

Is there something misleading about the wording that Joseph said that Christ himself used? Are you saying you see no difference between "for they were all wrong" and "because none of them had the complete truth"?

It's a straw man to suggest that I or anyone else misunderstands the First Vision account to mean that other churches have no truth at all. What Christ is said to have told Joseph, though, is much stronger than that we don't have the complete truth -- that, as the video also claims, we have some of the puzzle pieces but not all of them. Joseph claimed that Christ told him that all of the churches were wrong, that all of their creeds were an abomination, that their professors were corrupt, that their hearts were far from Christ, that they teach man-made commandments, and that they deny the power of godliness. That's a stinging indictment, not the mild, inoffensive statement the video represented it to be.

I think it’s just a softer, shorter way of telling about Joseph Smith’s First Vision.

I don’t see it as a misrepresentation. Mormons have never believed that other churches are completely wrong. We believe they contain parts of the truth mixed in with some error. We also believe that only our church has God’s priesthood authority.

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

Au contraire, it's only a fair representation if you look at it as such--which requires squinting at best.

It's only a misrepresentation if you look at it as such.

[altersteve]

Steve,

Au contraire, it's only a fair representation if you look at it as such--which requires squinting at best.

I don't have to squint at all.

[ERayR]

Steve,

Au contraire, it's only a fair representation if you look at it as such--which requires squinting at best.

Perhaps you need glasses or at least have your eyes checked.

[maklelan]

In this LDS video on "Joseph and the Restoration," part of the "Mormons Made Simple" series (on its own website and on YouTube), the narrator reports that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 "and told him to join none of the churches, because none of them had the complete truth":

Isn't this a misrepresentation of what Joseph himself claimed Christ had told him in that vision?

No, it's a paraphrase. What do you believe is misrepresented by the paraphrase?

[Rob Bowman]

No, it's a paraphrase. What do you believe is misrepresented by the paraphrase?

See post #4.

[Sky]

Just to point out, ‘Mormons Made Simple’ is not an official website of the Church.

No offense Rob Bowman, but you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

The Church is not watering down or trying to lessen the significance of the First Vision in the slightest.

See here:

http://lds.org/media-library/video/doctrine-and-covenants-stories?lang=eng&query=first+vision#2010-06-03-chapter-2-joseph-smiths-first-vision-1820

Edited October 18, 2011 by Sky

[maklelan]

Sky,

Is there something misleading about the wording that Joseph said that Christ himself used?

No. That wording, which was pretty tame by early 19th-century standards, can be easily blown out of proportion these days, though. Most contemporary Latter-day Saints prefer not to be confrontational like that. Are you saying that we are somehow required to use those words?

Are you saying you see no difference between "for they were all wrong" and "because none of them had the complete truth"?

There's a difference in aggressiveness and tone, but I don't think those are aspects of these events that are required to be replicated in any description, irrespective of context.

It's a straw man to suggest that I or anyone else misunderstands the First Vision account to mean that other churches have no truth at all. What Christ is said to have told Joseph, though, is much stronger than that we don't have the complete truth -- that, as the video also claims, we have some of the puzzle pieces but not all of them. Joseph claimed that Christ told him that all of the churches were wrong, that all of their creeds were an abomination, that their professors were corrupt, that their hearts were far from Christ, that they teach man-made commandments, and that they deny the power of godliness. That's a stinging indictment, not the mild, inoffensive statement the video represented it to be.

Smith's text had a rhetorical purpose. This video has a rhetorical purpose. Those two purposes are quite distinct. I think it's a bit disingenuous to insist that honesty dictates one represent rhetorical statements in disparate rhetorical contexts according to directly analogous levels of hostility.

[Anijen]

So what. Too bad some evangelicals feel slighted because LDS claim to have the fullness of the gospel restored, and other churchs did not have. Its not like a precedence, I mean Martin Luther, John Winthrop, and others did about the same thing.

Get over it.

[LeSellers]

When I taught junior high school physics, I would often have to grade tests. There were times (too many, but that's another story) when I'd have to give a student's answer a red check because it was "wrong", but it was not "completely wrong".

I hope no one would require that I give full credit to a wrong answer because it was not wholly in error, because, if a physicist gets the wrong answer, even though his process was correct, or got the right answer purely by accident (his having used a questionable technique or bad math), we might be concerned that his later theories and conclusion would be highly suspect.

Thus is it, I believe, that when Jesus told Joseph that "they were all wrong," His words did not mean that everything they taught was erroneous. I believe His statement that their creeds were an abomination did not extend beyond the creeds themselves: the greatest error is to have a fallacious understanding of the nature of God and His relation to us, His children, and "their creeds" are exactly that. When we read His words, that "those professors were all corrupt", we need only identify which professors "those" were (it was the ones Joseph alluded to in his account of the origins of his confusion about religion, and no one else).

Lehi

Edited October 18, 2011 by LeSellers

[wenglund]

Isn't this a misrepresentation of what Joseph himself claimed Christ had told him in that vision?

To a degree, yes.

However, as long as it isn't being used to tear down the LDS faith, it isn't of concern to me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Questing Beast]

Lehi's answer is the best, and the explanation I have always given when non Mormons are offended by what the Lord said to Joseph Smith (in the 1838 version). "All wrong" means all of them are mistaken together and not one of the denominations Joseph Smith knew about had any advantage over the rest; all were alike unacceptable to God, being incomplete. And "creeds were an abomination" means that their wrangling over converts, whilst criticizing each other, was abominable behavior: furthermore, the asserted doctrines vis-a-vis salvation and damnation, particularly the need for infant baptism or baptism at all before death, as a requirement to get into heaven, are abominable doctrines to Mormons....

[Zakuska]

Sky,

Is there something misleading about the wording that Joseph said that Christ himself used? Are you saying you see no difference between "for they were all wrong" and "because none of them had the complete truth"?

It's a straw man to suggest that I or anyone else misunderstands the First Vision account to mean that other churches have no truth at all. What Christ is said to have told Joseph, though, is much stronger than that we don't have the complete truth -- that, as the video also claims, we have some of the puzzle pieces but not all of them. Joseph claimed that Christ told him that all of the churches were wrong, that all of their creeds were an abomination, that their professors were corrupt, that their hearts were far from Christ, that they teach man-made commandments, and that they deny the power of godliness. That's a stinging indictment, not the mild, inoffensive statement the video represented it to be.

I think this might answer your question...

"Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true "Mormons"."

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316)

Edited October 18, 2011 by Zakuska

[Rob Osborn]

The video does make a misrepresentation of the truth. The LDS church does not claim to have the "complete truth". We believe things are revealed line upon line, precept upon precept. As far as truth goes, we may not have any more "truth" than any other Christian religion. Where we differ however is that we have the correct authority.

[Scott Lloyd]

I note that in small type in the upper right of the web site are these words:

"This is not an official site of the LDS Church."

Without commenting one way or the other on the quoted material in the OP, I would hope that Rob Bowman understands the importance of using competent and authoritative sources in any evaluation or public criticism of the Church of Jesus Christ that he might undertake.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

The video does make a misrepresentation of the truth. The LDS church does not claim to have the "complete truth". We believe things are revealed line upon line, precept upon precept. As far as truth goes, we may not have any more "truth" than any other Christian religion. Where we differ however is that we have the correct authority.

By virtue of revelation, we also in fact do have more truth than any other Christian religion.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In this LDS video on "Joseph and the Restoration," part of the "Mormons Made Simple" series (on its own website and on YouTube), the narrator reports that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 "and told him to join none of the churches, because none of them had the complete truth":

Isn't this a misrepresentation of what Joseph himself claimed Christ had told him in that vision?

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'" (JS-H 1:19)

I suppose that this is indeed a slight misrepresentation of the actual events. However the under lying theme is still there.

JS was still told not to join any of the churches.

Why don't you write a letter to the author of this video?

Of course I am genuinely confused, why this is a big deal? I really don't have an issue with it.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[cinepro]

Maybe "www.mormonsmadepalatable.com" was already taken?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Maybe "www.mormonsmadepalatable.com" was already taken?

Maybe you were already taken?

[Deborah]

No. That wording, which was pretty tame by early 19th-century standards, can be easily blown out of proportion these days, though. Most contemporary Latter-day Saints prefer not to be confrontational like that. Are you saying that we are somehow required to use those words?

That's what I was going to say. Once again Presentism rears its ugly head. The churches at that time were in pretty hot contention to gain converts. We are more ecumenical today and such heated contention is not present except perhaps by those who actively support smearing other faiths.

[Scott Lloyd]

Joseph Smith is on record as having made this statement:

Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, &c,, any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true “Mormons.

(History of the Church 5:517)

Given this bit of historical context then, it is clear that the rather innocuous paraphrase in the YouTube video (which, after all, appears to be tailored to a child's understanding) does not distort the message of Mormonism or of Joseph Smith himself to any significant degree. This appears to be one more failed gotcha attempt by Rob Bowman drawn from insignificant Internet minutia.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Scott Lloyd

[Grundelwalken]

After lurking for several months and responding to a very few topics, I have come to some conclusions. And this topic, started by Rob is my chosen place to speak out. Hope no one minds a little ranting at the expense of the board.

Whenever someone begins to find fault with the gospel as taught and preached by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I do not become upset. My life experience has put me with family, friends, neighbors and others who have very strong feelings against the truth as we know and preach it. Agency is a wonderful blessing and I would not deny that to anyone.

But the Apostle Paul taught "...and now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." (1Cor. 13:13)

When someone begins a deliberate attack on my beliefs and is incessant in their attempts to distort the truths of my religion I wonder if they really do understand the principle of charity. One need only to compare the websites of the detractors to the official website of the Church to see the difference in their understanding. A visitor to LDS.org would be hard pressed to find any negative commentary about ANY religion or group. What is contained at that website and all other official sites of the Church are principles and doctrines designed to teach about ONE church and one church only. We teach of Christ, we testify of Christ and we try to help others find Christ wherever they may want to find Him.

Those who come to discussion boards like this one and pluck "fruit" to be used to obfuscate the truth are treading on sacred ground -- even if they think they are justified. Preaching against someone is not the same as preaching for Christ.

May the Good Lord bless those who twist and destroy all that is good (not just our religion) and help them to see that they are hurting no one but themselves with their rancor and venom. I really do hope the best for them and want them to find happiness.

That's enough for today. MW