Hungary & Kazakhstan

[Pepcigirl]

Now that the Church is no longer a register entity in both these countries, does anyone know what the Church is doing about it?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Now that the Church is no longer a register entity in both these countries, does anyone know what the Church is doing about it?

I was bout to issue a cfr just to get some context. How ever, I don't think that is necessary. I don't know why the church would care it a state or nation does not recognize them as a registered entity.

[KevinG]

I was bout to issue a cfr just to get some context. How ever, I don't think that is necessary. I don't know why the church would care it a state or nation does not recognize them as a registered entity.

We get permission from countries to set up Stakes and Missions. If they don't officilly recognize us we don't form units of the Church to support individual members. In some cases it means the anti-mormons got to the government (like Ed Decker likes to do). Russia was about to boot us until they were shown what we really do in their country.

In cases where we are not welcome (like Islamic government that outlaw other religions) we don't try to go under the radar. We wait until the time is right and we are allowed to proceed legally and above board.

As to specifics in Hungary and Kazakhstan I have not heard if we do or do not have a presence in those nations.

[Storm Rider]

We get permission from countries to set up Stakes and Missions. If they don't officilly recognize us we don't form units of the Church to support individual members. In some cases it means the anti-mormons got to the government (like Ed Decker likes to do). Russia was about to boot us until they were shown what we really do in their country.

In cases where we are not welcome (like Islamic government that outlaw other religions) we don't try to go under the radar. We wait until the time is right and we are allowed to proceed legally and above board.

As to specifics in Hungary and Kazakhstan I have not heard if we do or do not have a presence in those nations.

Maybe some discussion would be helpful. In Muslim countries evangelization of any kind is not acceptable. Islam is the only religion; however, it is not the only religion allowed. Here in Abu Dhabi we have the Catholic church, St. Joseph's. In addition, the LDS Church as recently been given land by the government to build a chapel. I think that it is only the second denonmination allowed to do so.

Members are counseled not to openly discuss the church unless asked. We do not have missionaries, but members are allowed to worship as we choose. Saudi Arabia also allows LDS to meet, but the congregations are kept small on purpose. They do not have their own buildings and I doubt they ever will have such.

In truth, I find more Christian acts of charity here in the UAE than I did in the US. I really enjoy it here and I enjoy my Muslim co-workers and friends. They are a wonderful people.

[Pepcigirl]

We get permission from countries to set up Stakes and Missions. If they don't officilly recognize us we don't form units of the Church to support individual members. In some cases it means the anti-mormons got to the government (like Ed Decker likes to do). Russia was about to boot us until they were shown what we really do in their country.

In cases where we are not welcome (like Islamic government that outlaw other religions) we don't try to go under the radar. We wait until the time is right and we are allowed to proceed legally and above board.

As to specifics in Hungary and Kazakhstan I have not heard if we do or do not have a presence in those nations.

We have (as of 2010): Members: 4,474; Stakes 1; Wards 5; Branches, 14; Missions, 1; in Hungary;

(http://www.ldschurch...on-Hungary.html)

Members, 162; Branches, 1; in Kazakhstan;

(http://newsroom.lds....ntry/kazakhstan)

In January 2011 second city opened for Missionary work in Kazakhstan (http://ldschurchgrow...rowth-news.html)

Edited October 13, 2011 by Pepcigirl

[KevinG]

We have (as of 2010): Members: 4,474; Stakes 1; Wards 5; Branches, 14; Missions, 1; in Hungary;

(http://www.ldschurch...on-Hungary.html)

Members, 162; Branches, 1; in Kazakhstan;

(http://newsroom.lds....ntry/kazakhstan)

In January 2011 second city opened for Missionary work in Kazakhstan (http://ldschurchgrow...rowth-news.html)

Thanks- can you provide more specifics on those nations position on the Church? As we have discussed there may be practices the Church abstains from (Missionary work, etc.) depending on the legal requirements.

[Pepcigirl]

This item from "The Guardian" newspaper - about Hungary Religious Law

"Religious Recognition Restricted

The Hungarian parliament last month passed a "fundamental law" on religion that substantially differs from the draft negotiated with the various religious communities and officially recognises only a few of them, excluding the evangelicals but also older congregations such as the Methodists. The most hotly disputed article of the new law states that "the competent authority to recognise a religious organisation is now parliament, with a two-thirds majority, rather than the courts or a ministry".

The Hungarian parliament has passed "Europe's most restrictive religion law", says the head of the Institute on Religion and Public Policy, Joseph K Grieboski, who took part in the discussions. The evangelical communities condemned "the greatest discrimination against evangelical Christians since the fall of communism". Buddhists, Muslims, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses will not be recognised either.

Fourteen congregations will be accredited, securing them financial advantages."

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/02/hungary-press-freedom)

This item from religionclaue blogspot:

"AP and On Islam both report on the passage Thursday by Kazakhstan's Senate of a new more restrictive law on religious activities. The bill must now be signed by President Nazarbayev, but that seems to be a certainty. The law, which has been criticized by OSCE and others (see prior posting), sets 50, 500 and 5000 members respectively for local, regional and national registration of a religious group. It requires government review of all religious literature and annual registration of foreign missionaries (who can be expelled if they pose a threat to public order). The law also bans prayer rooms in all public buildings. Backers of the bill see it as a way to combat Islamic extremism, but others say it will eliminate two-thirds of the 4500 religious groups that now operate in the country. It will also complicate operations for fairly large Protestant groups now established in Kazakstan."

(http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2011/10/kazakhstan-parliament-passes-new.html)

The President has since signed it into law. (Kazakhstan’s President Nursultan Nazarbayev has signed the newly adopted law on religion, Tengrinews.kz reports, citing the Press Service of the President. - http://en.tengrinews.kz/religion/5038

As the church in Kazachstan has less than 500 members it would have to re-register only as a local church plus the government would have to approve all sets of scriptures and manuals etc. Legal recognition could still be denied and the church would be operating illegally in the country.

[Pepcigirl]

double post deleted

Edited October 13, 2011 by Pepcigirl

[KevinG]

Thanks- it will be interesting to see how this plays out in practice. Russia backed off of some more restrictive policies when they saw it was curtailing the activities of the LDS and other legitimate churches.

All I can say with any degree of certainty is I'm glad the USA has a Bill of Rights to protect individuals from the Government.

I see in both the articles on the LDS Newsroom that the LDS received government recognition in both countries. I wonder if this would grandfather them in?

Edited October 13, 2011 by DaddyG

[mfbukowski]

Go in with guns blazing

[volgadon]

I know the first missionary from Kazakhstan, as well as some other Kazakh members, so I could ask them if they won't mind sharing info.

[rongo]

This is all really interesting to me. I pop in here very sporadically, but there's some down-time at work, sooooooo . . .

I served in northern Germany from 1994-1996. Early in my mission, we baptized a family of four from Kazakhstan with the last name of Detzel. I asked them about their Germanic name, and they told me that there were many of German ancestry in Kazakhstan, whose ancestors were brought there by Catherine the Great. I had always thought of that as a Muslim/Asiatic area.

The Detzel's were really destitute and had nothing. Brother Detzel was a dentist back at home who really put in a lot of effort to learn German (they spoke Russian) --- he took German classes and did his homework and studied. We found them by talking to them on the street, and Brother Detzel translated for them. Mom and the boys were ready to be baptized, but Brother Detzel had reservations until he had a dream about washing in the purest water he'd ever found and being made clean. He took this as a sign, and they were baptized along with a mother and daughter.

Although his German was decent, and getting better, the thought crossed my mind when teaching about the restoration of the priesthood to purposely mispronounce "John the Baptist" to avoid confusion (Johannes der Täufer --- John the Baptist ---- sounds a lot like Johannes der Teufel ---- John the devil). He recoiled in horror, and I had to explain that it was Täufer, not Teufel, and that that meant "someone who baptizes."

Sister Detzel told us through her husband that she wanted her sons to be just like us when they grew up. She developed terminal brain cancer and passed away before my mission was over.