Evangelical’S Highest Authority Says Mormons Are Christians

[Ares]

Political comments moved to http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55971-romney-campaign-puts-mormon-faith-in-spotlight-msnbc-quotes-scott-gordon-of-fair/

[wenglund]

I believe that Evangelicals are free to have their own private or idiosyncratic definition of the word "Christian." And, as long as they make it clear in public statements that they aren't speaking on behalf of all Christians, but simply for themselves, personally, when declaring who they believe are Christian or not, I have no problem with that. It is only when the choose to do otherwise (like dogmatically tell me I am not Christian) that I believe they have overstepped proper bounds. From what I can tell, leading Evangelicals are becoming increasingly sensitive to this, and either go with the standardized definitions and include the Church of Jesus Christ, or they are careful to say that "we don't consider them Christians," thus stepping away from the inane and exclusionary label propaganda of the past. This is progress, and credit is given where it is due.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[juliann]

Rob,

What you are not accepting is that one is a Christian just by being a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings by being a disciple...a pupil. The rest is just schematics the outward things that man can do and see. No one can know the heart of another, or know if their confession or belief of Christ is genuine only God and the Holy Ghost can know those types of things. One can even think they can judge if one is a good or bad "Christian" but only by outward actions and even then no one can know if the person is repentant or even where they are in the repentance process. This is why the Lord has given the injunction not to judge others.

That would mean Mr. Bowman is judging people through *cough* works.

[juliann]

My own personal two-cents on this issue (as a mainstream evangelical): I have no problem labeling Mormons as Christians. We may have wildly different ideas about some things, but in the end we are each striving to live by the teachings and example of Christ, plus we both believe that God resurrected him from the dead as Lord, and that's good enough for me to call someone a Christian.

Though, I don't think you will find the majority of mainstream evangelicals agreeing with me on this.

I think the only reason that it even becomes an issue is that it is used, along with cult, to denigrate and demean rather than describe or enlighten. I appreciate your viewpoint and agree with it.

[Hannah Rebekah]

I think the only reason that it even becomes an issue is that it is used, along with cult, to denigrate and demean rather than describe or enlighten. I appreciate your viewpoint and agree with it.

I feel that the reason they make these claims about Mormons comes down to "boundary maintenance" and "sheep stealing." They have said as much.

[Zakuska]

I feel that the reason they make these claims about Mormons comes down to "boundary maintenance" and "sheep stealing." They have said as much.

Amen!

Its the us verses them, theology run amuk.

[LeSellers]

It may have been used as a pejorative by some but I don't get that from these scriptures especially this one:

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Unless.....Agrippa was being sarcastic....but I don't get that....but I could be wrong.

I read it as if he was being sarcastic.

Even if he were not, it is still ambiguous. How many people have said something similar about the "Mormons"?

"You know, I really like you Mormons, but I just can't get baptized."

Lehi

[maklelan]

Yea, I know what you mean. I grow weary of all the baggage that everyone seems to associate with the label "evangelical" nowadays. It seems to me that many equate it with "fundamentalist".

I usually just use "evangelical" to describe myself as an offset to "progressive" which I also use. Because "progressive" can make people think I don't actually believe there is anything unique about Christ, so I throw "evangelical" in to counter that notion.

According to one Catherine Aurelia you are not a "genuine" Evangelical, though, you're a "liberal/emergent" Christian. You may sincerely identify as an Evangelical, but Catherine knows it's not genuine, and she claims to have the right to judge. In my mind it becomes crystal clear how petty and sectarian these labeling games are once it moves into labels we're not so used to hearing challenged.

Edited October 14, 2011 by maklelan

[Mudcat]

Hi Hannah Rebekah,

Hope things are good your way.

I see some underlying issues with your OP that I wanted to address.

Quoting your OP title.

Evangelical’S Highest Authority Says Mormons Are Christians

This certainly leaves me with the impression that you believe given the following statement that the Bible is the ultimate authority for Evangelicals. I don't neccessarily agree with that though I certainly don't want to detract from God's word either.

The Bible tells me so….Sola Scriptura! For those Christians who say Mormons are not Christian….well...they are adding to the Bible? Since they claim they are bound by the Bible as their only and final authority…then they are not bound to their Pastors, the demagogues, other Anti-Mormons, the counter-cult movement, other books & websites that say so because it's just someone's opinion (Anti-Mormon polemics). The Bible has already defined it and is the final authority. If they are not bound by the Bible (Sola Scriptura) as they claim, they are then the biggest hypocrites, they talk out of both sides of their mouths and have lose all creditability…they turn on their own true authority and make it up as they go along.

Hopefully you won't consider me to much of a demagogue, counter-cult person, anti-Mormon or hypocrite when I say that there is more to the equation than that. I do think we are "bound" to the written word of God, but this binding is because of our acceptance the witness of the author of such things, the Holy Spirit. It is only under such acceptance of the Holy Spirit's guidance and ones tutelage under Him that the written word actually makes sense.

The primacy of Scripture is only primacy in tandem with the acceptance of the primacy of it's author.

That being said, on to your OP's assertion that the Bible actually teaches that Mormons are Christians... I don't agree that it does in a holistic sense. I don't mean that in a negative fashion. To put it simply. You can take the Bible and arrive at a number of conclusions given the interpretational emphasis you place on various verses. However, I can't see a good way to take the Bible and arrive at the teachings of the CoJCoLDS. IOW, I don't think the Bible can be explained in any possible way so that it completely teaches or even corroborates what LDS believe.

I don't mean to castrate LDS in that statement. Based upon the evidence I can see, the fruit we produce and so forth.. in general the LDS I know are Christians, as best I can tell. I am not the judge of all things or anythings, for that matter, but Christ said to look at the fruit and the LDS seem a fruitful people for the most part.

Since the “less than Christian” remarks of the Texas Pastor the conversation has been pretty interesting of how many others hold his views as well as those who may not speak it outloud. I’ve seen a number of appeals that Mormons are Christians based on definitions in dictionaries. I just wanted to take that one step further using the Bible to prove that Mormons are Christians and making an appeal to their Sola Scriptura belief. We know that southern Christians used the Bible (Sola Scriptura) to defend slavery even unto death (Civil War). I’m curious how they are going to dance around this one…because they will or probably already have. If they do then they are turning on their Sola Scriptura belief.

Bold mine. I wasn't fond of what he said, I am sure you LDS considered it a hateful thing. Hopefully, we all recognize that there are times when we are all "less than Christian" even when we think we have good reason to be so.

Regards,

Mudcat

[Ron Beron]

Hannah Rebekah,

Your topic title says, "Evangelical's highest authority says Mormons are Christians." By "evangelical's highest authority" you mean the Bible. in your post, you cited the three uses of the term Christian in the New Testament and quoted Strong's dictionary on the meaning of the Greek term Christianos ("follower of Christ"). However, you did not explain how this shows that the Bible identifies Mormons as Christians. I think your reasoning is that Mormons are followers of Christ and therefore fit the definition of Strong's dictionary. Is that your argument?

Nor does the Bible state exactly how Evangelicals are Christians, either.

[ldsfaqs]

Storm Rider,

Before a person is baptized in the LDS Church, is he expected to express agreement with LDS doctrine, or is simply affirming that he believes in Jesus and that he has repented sufficient?

Early Christians weren't being baptized because they believed simply in Jesus, but they believed in the GOSPEL of Christ, whether it was John the Baptist or during or after Christ.

Thus, when Latter-Day Saints are baptized for ALSO believing in the latter-day Gospel, such is no different.

You shouldn't confuse your inappropriate remark removed* as being the same as what the Bible actual teaches on the subject.

[ldsfaqs]

Hannah,

You wrote:

Okay, thanks for pointing that out.

Now, what I want to understand is this: Is it your position that everyone who considers himself or herself to be a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian," or that everyone who genuinely is a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian"?

You don't have to believe us, but believe Christ's own words on the subject in Mark 9 & Luke 9, when the Apostles tried to act like you anti-mormons do and be critical of other believers that didn't have their authority, weren't with the Church etc. Christ clearly said we mormons or anyone else are also his children.

[KevinG]

Its past my bedtime. Hopefully Rob will have time tomorrow to answer my questions with a simple and contextual response.

[Flyonthewall]

I would consider anyone who claims to be Christian, a christian...even if they don't agree with me.

I believe Evangelicals to be christian even though I believe them to be misguided.

I would never dream of telling someone they are not Christian just because they beleive differently than me, but still profess Christ. At best I would use qualifiers like: Evangelical christian, Baptist christian, Catholic christian etc..."Christian" is implied when using those qualifiers so it can be dropped and still be understood. Now I would not call a Catholic LDS, or an Evangelical LDS because they don't profess to be LDS.

As the story of the 5 blind men and the elephant demonstrates, they all had differing opinions of what an elephant was like but they all had the same animal in mind. Each was correct to some extent with the information they had, but not complete.

"Christian" is a very broad canopy. Underneath it are 3 major sub categories: Catholic, Protestant, and LDS. Each of those sub-categories have underneath them sub-categories, and so it goes until all Christian sects are included under one of them.

As Jesus stated:

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

[diglot]

As Jesus stated:

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

But when Jesus said "us", he obviously meant "He who is not against us conservative evangelical Christians, is for us."

[Hannah Rebekah]

Hi Hannah Rebekah,

Hope things are good your way.

I see some underlying issues with your OP that I wanted to address.

Quoting your OP title.

This certainly leaves me with the impression that you believe given the following statement that the Bible is the ultimate authority for Evangelicals. I don't neccessarily agree with that though I certainly don't want to detract from God's word either.

Hopefully you won't consider me to much of a demagogue, counter-cult person, anti-Mormon or hypocrite when I say that there is more to the equation than that. I do think we are "bound" to the written word of God, but this binding is because of our acceptance the witness of the author of such things, the Holy Spirit. It is only under such acceptance of the Holy Spirit's guidance and ones tutelage under Him that the written word actually makes sense.

The primacy of Scripture is only primacy in tandem with the acceptance of the primacy of it's author.

That being said, on to your OP's assertion that the Bible actually teaches that Mormons are Christians... I don't agree that it does in a holistic sense. I don't mean that in a negative fashion. To put it simply. You can take the Bible and arrive at a number of conclusions given the interpretational emphasis you place on various verses. However, I can't see a good way to take the Bible and arrive at the teachings of the CoJCoLDS. IOW, I don't think the Bible can be explained in any possible way so that it completely teaches or even corroborates what LDS believe.

I don't mean to castrate LDS in that statement. Based upon the evidence I can see, the fruit we produce and so forth.. in general the LDS I know are Christians, as best I can tell. I am not the judge of all things or anythings, for that matter, but Christ said to look at the fruit and the LDS seem a fruitful people for the most part.

Bold mine. I wasn't fond of what he said, I am sure you LDS considered it a hateful thing. Hopefully, we all recognize that there are times when we are all "less than Christian" even when we think we have good reason to be so.

Regards,

Mudcat

Do you not believe in Sola Scriptura? I think if you would read my other post you would see that I agree with you about it being in general...so we are in agreement. So the solution would be to declare the specific along with the title of Christian. It's a win, win!! For Mormons it could look like:

non-Traditional LDS Christian

non-Historical LDS Christian

non-Creedal LDS Christian

non-Trinitarian LDS Christian

For others it could look like:

Evangelical Christian

Southern Baptist Christian

Lutheran Christian

Catholic Christian

Methodist Christian

and so on....

This would be so helpful because I can't tell you how many time I have been attacked by Anti-Mormons who do it hiding behind the general title of Christian. If they really want to protect their borders it would be more honest and helpful to let us know what those borders are. But that's not how the game is played. They know that everyone can be attacked for their doctrine or history. This way they make it appear that all Christians feel the way they do about Mormons. Anyway...that's just my feelings.

[Hughes]

Using the logic that LDS are Christian based on their professions, then it follows that Christians are Jews, yes?

[Flyonthewall]

Using the logic that LDS are Christian based on their professions, then it follows that Christians are Jews, yes?

Do Christians profess to be Jews? Do you profess to be a Jew? (by "Jew", I mean the religion, not the nationality)

The Jewish religion denies the very Messiah Christians profess, so I'm not following your logic.

[Hughes]

Do Christians profess to be Jews? Do you profess to be a Jew? (by "Jew", I mean the religion, not the nationality)

The Jewish religion denies the very Messiah Christians profess, so I'm not following your logic.

Jews deny further revelation, that Christians accept (ie the NT). Likewise, Christians deny further revelation that LDS accept (ie the BoM, BoA, D&C).

So, the difference is the acceptance of further revelation.

[KevinG]

Using the logic that LDS are Christian based on their professions, then it follows that Christians are Jews, yes?

Messianic Jews think so.

[KevinG]

Its past my bedtime. Hopefully Rob will have time tomorrow to answer my questions with a simple and contextual response.

I lied. Now its really my bedtime.

[shalamabobbi]

Using the logic that LDS are Christian based on their professions, then it follows that Christians are Jews, yes?

logic <-> Hughes as

Chevy Sprint <-> speed

Which Christians? Are you referring to the Lion of the Tribe of Judah? The King of the Jews?

[Flyonthewall]

Jews deny further revelation, that Christians accept (ie the NT). Likewise, Christians deny further revelation that LDS accept (ie the BoM, BoA, D&C).

So, the difference is the acceptance of further revelation.

You can frame it like that, but there is more to it than that.

Do Christians profess to be Jewish?

There is a huge difference in accepting the Savior, and accepting scriptures about the Savior and His teachings.

Catholic bibles have different scirptures than Protestants because Protestants may not accept some of those books as scriptures. LDS have more books of scripture than non-LDS christians, but we all profess Christ.

[Hughes]

You can frame it like that, but there is more to it than that.

Do Christians profess to be Jewish?

There is a huge difference in accepting the Savior, and accepting scriptures about the Savior and His teachings.

Catholic bibles have different scirptures than Protestants because Protestants may not accept some of those books as scriptures. LDS have more books of scripture than non-LDS christians, but we all profess Christ.

Christians indeed were called a "Jewish Sect" in the beginning. However, Jews deny Christians being Jewish.

The comparison is simple on purpose, because it's easy to get bogged down into details that don't really matter.

As the OP stated, Christians believe the Biblical text is all there is, as far as revelation is concerned. LDS accept further revelation. There in lies the difference.

[shalamabobbi]

Christians indeed were called a "Jewish Sect" in the beginning. However, Jews deny Christians being Jewish.

The comparison is simple on purpose, because it's easy to get bogged down into details that don't really matter.

As the OP stated, Christians believe the Biblical text is all there is, as far as revelation is concerned. LDS accept further revelation. There in lies the difference.

And therein your *logic* fails. Or are you saying the Jews were correct and the early Christians were wrong??

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

You see the Jews weren't always in a condition of apostasy. It seems that that is when further revelation is needed though to accomplish a course correction and new wine in old bottles just doesn't seem to work..

Edited October 14, 2011 by shalamabobbi