juliann Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Hannah,You wrote:Okay, thanks for pointing that out.Now, what I want to understand is this: Is it your position that everyone who considers himself or herself to be a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian," or that everyone who genuinely is a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian"?It would be much, much more interesting to know if your position is that you are the final judge over humanity of "genuinely". 1
KevinG Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say "deepening," the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word [as gentlemen did]. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and indeed are forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word that we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouth's simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christian was first given at Antioch (Acts 11:26) to "the disciples," to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were "far closer to the spirit of Christ" than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a questions of words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 10-11
Rob Bowman Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 None of you has answered the question, but your comments appear to imply that you would favor the answer that anyone who professes to follow Christ is a Christian. Would you all be so kind as to confirm or deny this conclusion?
maklelan Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Hannah,You wrote:Okay, thanks for pointing that out.Now, what I want to understand is this: Is it your position that everyone who considers himself or herself to be a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian," or that everyone who genuinely is a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian"?It's my position that a claim to being Christian is the most important criterion, although obviously the sincerity of the claim must also be taken into account. It's also my position that I don't have the right to judge the validity of another person's walk with Christ. Trying to point to institutional affiliations or broad theological affirmations as indicators of the validity of that walk strike me as quite at odds with the way Christ presented his gospel in the New Testament. It also reduces identification as a Christian to mere sectarianism, since any person or group can capriciously declare that any given dogma (invariably absent from the Bible) precludes or is necessary for "genuinely" following Christ. 3
KevinG Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 None of you has answered the question, but your comments appear to imply that you would favor the answer that anyone who professes to follow Christ is a Christian. Would you all be so kind as to confirm or deny this conclusion?Matthew 12:50 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Hannah Rebekah Posted October 13, 2011 Author Posted October 13, 2011 Hannah,You wrote:Okay, thanks for pointing that out.Now, what I want to understand is this: Is it your position that everyone who considers himself or herself to be a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian," or that everyone who genuinely is a follower and disciple of Christ is a "Christian"?BTW...no where in the information in the OP did it have a qualification of "genuinely" a follower. It's pretty basic and is not too hard....it just says: “Christian” simply means “follower of Christ.” "Disciple" simply means a learner, a pupil and" are all those who confess Jesus as the Messiah, Christians." (see Lexicon) That is it and any attempt to invent doctrinal tests outside the Bible are dishonest especially when you are Sola Scriptura...remember....Bible Only.
juliann Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 None of you has answered the question, but your comments appear to imply that you would favor the answer that anyone who professes to follow Christ is a Christian. Would you all be so kind as to confirm or deny this conclusion?Makelan answered. Your turn. 1
Hannah Rebekah Posted October 13, 2011 Author Posted October 13, 2011 None of you has answered the question, but your comments appear to imply that you would favor the answer that anyone who professes to follow Christ is a Christian. Would you all be so kind as to confirm or deny this conclusion?Just answered....“Christian” simply means “follower of Christ.” "Disciple" simply means a learner, a pupil and" are all those who confess Jesus as the Messiah, Christians." (see Lexicon)Are you going against your belief of Sola Scriptura?
KevinG Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 1 Peter 4:16 14 If ye be areproached for the name of Christ, bhappy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.16 Yet if any man suffer as a aChristian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Hannah Rebekah Posted October 13, 2011 Author Posted October 13, 2011 Rob,I consider Trinitarian doctrine the writing of scripture that was added later...hundreds of years later. This is not Sola Scriptura.
Hannah Rebekah Posted October 13, 2011 Author Posted October 13, 2011 1 Peter 4:16 14 If ye be areproached for the name of Christ, bhappy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.16 Yet if any man suffer as a aChristian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.Thanks DaddyG,I was saving that one for later but I have to say....your timing is impeccable.
KevinG Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Welcome. I'll try not to steal your thunder. I just felt like going to the source was important in any discussion where claims we aren't ChristianTM are being bandied about.
Rob Bowman Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Hannah Rebekah,You still have not answered my question directly. I take it from your quotation "all those who confess Jesus as the Messiah, [are] Christians" that you believe that anyone who confesses Jesus as the Messiah is a Christian. I would infer, then, that in your view anyone who professes to be a follower of Christ is by definition a Christian. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Edited October 14, 2011 by Rob Bowman
Rob Bowman Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 juliann,You wrote:Makelan answered. Your turn.Are you some sort of referee here?
Ares Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 juliann,You wrote:Are you some sort of referee here?No but I am. Your questions were answered. It is your turn to respond in kind. Stop badgering posters when you don't get the answer you like.
maklelan Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Hannah Rebekah,You seem like a sweet lady, but you still have not answered my question directly. I take it from your quotation "all those who confess Jesus as the Messiah, [are] Christians" that you believe that anyone who confesses Jesus as the Messiah is a Christian.I believe that is all that many Evangelicals insist is necessary for salvation.
Rob Bowman Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Dan,You wrote:It's my position that a claim to being Christian is the most important criterion, although obviously the sincerity of the claim must also be taken into account."Obviously"? I don't understand. Is it your position that anyone who claims to be a Christian and makes that claim sincerely is by definition a Christian? And what do you mean by "sincerity"? Is it sufficient that the person believes his claim to be a Christian is genuine, or is there more involved? If claiming to be a Christian is "the most important criterion," then are there other criteria (other than "the sincerity of the claim")?You wrote:It's also my position that I don't have the right to judge the validity of another person's walk with Christ.Within a certain frame of reference, I agree with you.You wrote:Trying to point to institutional affiliations or broad theological affirmations as indicators of the validity of that walk strike me as quite at odds with the way Christ presented his gospel in the New Testament. It also reduces identification as a Christian to mere sectarianism, since any person or group can capriciously declare that any given dogma (invariably absent from the Bible) precludes or is necessary for "genuinely" following Christ.Like everyone else here, you're running way ahead of me and assuming certain conclusions as to my own view. I'd really like a simple and straight answer to me question, which so far has not been forthcoming.
Rob Bowman Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 Ares,It is not my intention to badger posters. I have responded to Dan (maklelan), but the fact is that his comment did not clear up the confusion that my question was and is intended to clarify. I will explain in a subsequent post.No but I am. Your questions were answered. It is your turn to respond in kind. Stop badgering posters when you don't get the answer you like.
altersteve Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 I believe that is all that many Evangelicals insist is necessary for salvation.Evangelicals say it doesn't count when Mormons do it because they believe in a "false Jesus."
Rob Bowman Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 All,Here's the thing. If one defines Christian as "anyone who professes to follow Christ," then of course Mormons are Christians, and nothing more needs to be said. But it is not clear to me that this is what the Mormons posting here really think the word means. So I am trying to get a clear and unequivocal answer to that question because in my opinion confusion on this point is clouding the issue.For the record, I do not myself go around saying "Mormons are not Christians." But then, I'm not really into soundbites. I'm much more interested in clarifying what the issues are in this perennial (and usually tiresome) debate.
Hannah Rebekah Posted October 13, 2011 Author Posted October 13, 2011 Welcome. I'll try not to steal your thunder. I just felt like going to the source was important in any discussion where claims we aren't ChristianTM are being bandied about.I don't consider it as stealing...it sounded better coming from you at just the right moment. Zakuska had an interesting quote in another thread here that in the context of this discussion leaves me perplexed that many of them just don't get it....I mean...they just don't get what the Bible really says. Mouw admits, "I do accept many of my Mormon friends as genuine followers of the Jesus." That should be the end of story because not only is the Bible considered their only authority but I'm pretty sure Strong's Bible Concordance was written by one of them. Does anyone know who wrote it? Romney Not Cultist, Fuller President Says CautiouslyAs Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith has become an issue in the GOP presidential nomination race prompting the Latter-day Saints to launch an ad campaign, the President of Fuller Theological Seminary Richard J. Mouw has declared, though cautiously, that Mormonism is not a cult.“While I am not prepared to reclassify Mormonism as possessing undeniably Christian theology, I do accept many of my Mormon friends as genuine followers of the Jesus whom I worship as the divine Savior,” Mouw, head of the Pasadena, Calif., seminary wrote in an article on CNN Sunday.http://www.christianpost.com/news/romney-not-cultist-fuller-president-says-cautiously-57688/“Christian” simply means “follower of Christ.” "Disciple" simply means a learner, a pupil and" are all those who confess Jesus as the Messiah, Christians." (see Lexicon)
Hannah Rebekah Posted October 13, 2011 Author Posted October 13, 2011 Hannah Rebekah,You seem like a sweet lady, but you still have not answered my question directly. I take it from your quotation "all those who confess Jesus as the Messiah, [are] Christians" that you believe that anyone who confesses Jesus as the Messiah is a Christian. I would infer, then, that in your view anyone who professes to be a follower of Christ is by definition a Christian. Please correct me if I am mistaken.Already answered...impolite remark removed
KevinG Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 All,Here's the thing. If one defines Christian as "anyone who professes to follow Christ," then of course Mormons are Christians, and nothing more needs to be said. But it is not clear to me that this is what the Mormons posting here really think the word means. So I am trying to get a clear and unequivocal answer to that question because in my opinion confusion on this point is clouding the issue.For the record, I do not myself go around saying "Mormons are not Christians." But then, I'm not really into soundbites. I'm much more interested in clarifying what the issues are in this perennial (and usually tiresome) debate.Rob, In your view, who has the authority to declare Mormons (or any other professed followers of Christ) "Christian" or followers of Christ.
juliann Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 All,Here's the thing. If one defines Christian as "anyone who professes to follow Christ," then of course Mormons are Christians, and nothing more needs to be said. But it is not clear to me that this is what the Mormons posting here really think the word means. So I am trying to get a clear and unequivocal answer to that question because in my opinion confusion on this point is clouding the issue.For the record, I do not myself go around saying "Mormons are not Christians." But then, I'm not really into soundbites. I'm much more interested in clarifying what the issues are in this perennial (and usually tiresome) debate.I'm going to ask you again and as many times as necessary. I expect the same direct answer you demand from everyone else. .A yes or no is all it takes. Are you a judge as to who is "genuinely" a Christian and who is not? 1
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