Evangelical’S Highest Authority Says Mormons Are Christians

[KevinG]

More irrelevancy as to who can call themselves Christian. You know very well that Mormons consider those who are baptized in other Christian churches Christian.

Agreed - I just wanted to see where Rob would take this path.

[maklelan]

Zakuska,

Thanks for chiming in. You wrote:

These passages appear to require more than an affirmation that Jesus is the Messiah; they also require a doctrinal confession that Jesus Christ has "come in the flesh." That would exclude some religious groups then and now that profess to be Christians.

These texts address the doctrinal affirmations of a specific movement with a specific christology. I wouldn't say that identification as a Christian, per these texts, requires a doctrinal confession that Jesus Christ has "come in the flesh" so much as asserting docetism indicates, per these texts, deception in one's self-identification as a Christian.

[KevinG]

(didn't want this to get lost below the fold)

Rob,

Since you have declared you have God's authority to judge who is Christian...

Are Mormons Christian (according to your authority and definition)

If not - what disqualifies them as Christians?

[Hannah Rebekah]

zerinus,

You wrote:

Where we go from there is to acknowledge that by that definition we will sincerely disagree as to who is a Christian. I will have to say that by that definition Mormons are not Christians, and you will have to say that by that definition evangelical Protestants are not Christians. Such statements need not have anything to do with prejudice, hate, or animus toward one another; they may simply be sincere (even regretful) statements of our differing understandings of what it means to be genuine followers of Jesus Christ.

Rob,

What you are not accepting is that one is a Christian just by being a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings by being a disciple...a pupil. The rest is just schematics the outward things that man can do and see. No one can know the heart of another, or know if their confession or belief of Christ is genuine only God and the Holy Ghost can know those types of things. One can even think they can judge if one is a good or bad "Christian" but only by outward actions and even then no one can know if the person is repentant or even where they are in the repentance process. This is why the Lord has given the injunction not to judge others.

[CV75]

If Christ is leading people into the LDS Church today, and if I don't accept the LDS Church, isn't it the case that I am not following Christ? And if a Christian is by definition a follower of Christ, but I am not following Christ, then must we not conclude that I am not a Christian?

Anyone who professes Christ is likely to be following Him to one degree or another. We have to take that at face value. Only God can correctly judge people in that regard.

Christ is leading people into the LDS Church today. Not only do you not accept the LDS Church, but you insist that it is not Christian and you campaign against it. This does not mean that you are not following Christ in every other regard; in many things you still possess a Christian conscience. A Christian is by definition a follower of Christ, even when doing so imperfectly or inconsistently. Once you knowingly and willingly fight against Christ you are obviously no longer a Christian, but that is your call (and God’s), and you can always repent.

[CV75]

The word Christian is used less than a handful of times in the Bible which makes Mr. Bowman's assertions even more irrelevant to anything but his own sect.

Unless terms such as saint, believer, elect, disciple, etc. are included as synonyms. I think is safe to say this since the term "Christian" was used to identify these same people.

[diglot]

My own personal two-cents on this issue (as a mainstream evangelical): I have no problem labeling Mormons as Christians. We may have wildly different ideas about some things, but in the end we are each striving to live by the teachings and example of Christ, plus we both believe that God resurrected him from the dead as Lord, and that's good enough for me to call someone a Christian.

Though, I don't think you will find the majority of mainstream evangelicals agreeing with me on this.

[Rob Bowman]

Pahoran,

You wrote:

Not at all.

If we are to conclude anything, it would be that you didn't get the memo.

Well, as I'm sure you know, I did "get the memo." I simply deny that it came from God.

You wrote:

Or that you are not yet ready to receive that rather important bit of inspiration. Or that you are, like all other Christians, mortal and hence imperfect in your efforts to follow Him.

Someone above provided a typically insightful quote from C. S. Lewis. It makes no sense, and destroys communication to say that someone is a Christian because he fails in some way to measure up to an ideal. It makes much more sense to say that such a person is an imperfect Christian; and of whom could we not say that?

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that a person can reject Christ's word in the Book of Mormon, reject Christ's prophets, reject Christ's church, and reject Christ's modern commandments, and still be said in some meaningful sense to be following Christ?

If I claim to be a follower of Christ, but I reject all scripture and all commandments, do whatever feels good to me, and believe whatever I want, am I to be described as an "imperfect Christian"?

You asked:

Why? Are you now subcribing to the "Exclusion by definition" tactic? I was actually under the impression that you were better than that. Was I wrong?

I'm not trying to "exclude" Mormons from anything. I'm seeking clarity in our use of terms and understanding from Mormons of what evangelicals mean by their words.

[Zakuska]

My own personal two-cents on this issue (as a mainstream evangelical): I have no problem labeling Mormons as Christians. We may have wildly different ideas about some things, but in the end we are each striving to live by the teachings and example of Christ, plus we both believe that God resurrected him from the dead as Lord, and that's good enough for me to call someone a Christian.

Though, I don't think you will find the majority of mainstream evangelicals agreeing with me on this.

Which boils the argument down rather nicely. I wouldn't mind at all being called a non-orthodox Christian, or a Mormon Christian. But don't you dare EVER call me an Evangelical Christian! Thems fight'n words!

Edited October 14, 2011 by Zakuska

[CV75]

My own personal two-cents on this issue (as a mainstream evangelical): I have no problem labeling Mormons as Christians. We may have wildly different ideas about some things, but in the end we are each striving to live by the teachings and example of Christ, plus we both believe that God resurrected him from the dead as Lord, and that's good enough for me to call someone a Christian.

Though, I don't think you will find the majority of mainstream evangelicals agreeing with me on this.

I do appreciate that. In light of what has been said publicly in relation to at least two of the presidential nominee candidates, I think we may be seeing more mainstream evangelicals agreeing with you on this.

[Rob Bowman]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

(didn't want this to get lost below the fold)

Rob,

Since you have declared you have God's authority to judge who is Christian...

Are Mormons Christian (according to your authority and definition)

If not - what disqualifies them as Christians?

Would you like to know what definition I was using? Because so far I don't think anyone has asked me.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Hannah Rebekah,

In one short post, you compare me to the Pharisees who rejected Christ and yet state that you do not know people's hearts and do not judge whether they are truly following Christ. Can you understand why those two statements seem contradictory to me?

Can you understand that you are doing the very same thing? You say you can judge but when I judged you you now try to slap my judgement down and call me on it. I have no clue if you reject Christ or anything about your heart. Nor can you know others hearts.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Hannah Rebekah

[Rob Bowman]

zerinus,

You wrote:

That sounds to me more like a dodge. So what that they don't agree? You are debating with me now, not with them. Why don't you continue this discussion with me, regardless of what other people say?

I wasn't dodging your question. But it is curious that many Mormons are so hostile toward evangelicals who deny that Mormons are Christians, yet Mormons don't even agree among themselves as to the definition of the term.

I don't wish to debate you. My intention here was simply to inject some concerns about clarity of language in a discussion that is beclouded by a lack of such clarity.

[Rob Bowman]

Rebekah,

You wrote:

Can you understand that you are doing the very same thing? You say you can judge but when I judged you you now try to slap my judgement down and call me on it. I have no clue if you reject Christ or anything about your heart. Nor can you know others hearts.

No, I am not criticizing you for judging me to be like the Pharisees. If that's your sincere assessment of me, so be it. But making such a criticism is inconsistent with claiming you don't judge anyone. I'm not making such contradictory claims. I think I have the right to judge religions in some sense, and I try to do so in a consistent manner.

[Zakuska]

Rob,

What you are not accepting is that one is a Christian just by being a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings by being a disciple...a pupil. The rest is just schematics the outward things that man can do and see. No one can know the heart of another, or know if their confession or belief of Christ is genuine only God and the Holy Ghost can know those types of things. One can even think they can judge if one is a good or bad "Christian" but only by outward actions and even then no one can know if the person is repentant or even where they are in the repentance process. This is why the Lord has given the injunction not to judge others.

Romans Chapter 14

If God hasnt struck Mormons down yet for them claiming to be his servants... why are so many Evangelical Christians so ready to do it for him?

Rob,

You can call yourself an Evangelical Christian I have no problem with that. But allow me to call myself a Mormon Christian.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Zakuska

[KevinG]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

Would you like to know what definition I was using? Because so far I don't think anyone has asked me.

That's what I was asking...

[Rob Bowman]

CV75,

You wrote:

Anyone who professes Christ is likely to be following Him to one degree or another. We have to take that at face value. Only God can correctly judge people in that regard.

Christ is leading people into the LDS Church today. Not only do you not accept the LDS Church, but you insist that it is not Christian and you campaign against it. This does not mean that you are not following Christ in every other regard; in many things you still possess a Christian conscience. A Christian is by definition a follower of Christ, even when doing so imperfectly or inconsistently. Once you knowingly and willingly fight against Christ you are obviously no longer a Christian, but that is your call (and God’s), and you can always repent.

That seems to be a good effort to find that fine line that would allow you to acknowledge me as a Christian while still maintaining that a Christian is someone who follows Christ. But I would simply point out that the crack in the wall has already appeared. Being a Christian, by that definition, is more than claiming to be one.

[Rob Bowman]

Zakuska,

You wrote:

You can call yourself an Evangelical Christian I have no problem with that. But allow me to call myself a Mormon Christian.

You can call yourself anything you like. I am doing nothing to disallow you that privilege.

[Rob Bowman]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

That's what I was asking...

Okay. Hurrah!

The fact is that I don't hold that there is only one acceptable definition of the word Christian. The word has different meanings in different contexts.

I have a meeting that is starting now, so I will have to continue this later. But I will answer your question.

[diglot]

Which boils the argument down rather nicely. I wouldn't mind at all being called a non-orthodox Christian, or a Mormon Christian. But don't you dare EVER call me an Evangelical Christian! Thems fight'n words!

Yea, I know what you mean. I grow weary of all the baggage that everyone seems to associate with the label "evangelical" nowadays. It seems to me that many equate it with "fundamentalist".

I usually just use "evangelical" to describe myself as an offset to "progressive" which I also use. Because "progressive" can make people think I don't actually believe there is anything unique about Christ, so I throw "evangelical" in to counter that notion.

[KevinG]

DaddyG,

You wrote:

Okay. Hurrah!

The fact is that I don't hold that there is only one acceptable definition of the word Christian. The word has different meanings in different contexts.

I have a meeting that is starting now, so I will have to continue this later. But I will answer your question.

No kidding. Context counts. Yet you judge the Mormons here for not providing a unified simple definition for you.

I look forward to your simple and contextually approproate answers to:

Are Mormons Christian (according to your authority and definition)?

If not - what disqualifies them as Christians?

Edited October 14, 2011 by DaddyG

[KevinG]

Yea, I know what you mean. I grow weary of all the baggage that everyone seems to associate with the label "evangelical" nowadays. It seems to me that many equate it with "fundamentalist".

I usually just use "evangelical" to describe myself as an offset to "progressive" which I also use. Because "progressive" can make people think I don't actually believe there is anything unique about Christ, so I throw "evangelical" in to counter that notion.

Why not use Christian?

[zerinus]

I wasn't dodging your question. But it is curious that many Mormons are so hostile toward evangelicals who deny that Mormons are Christians, yet Mormons don't even agree among themselves as to the definition of the term.

I don't wish to debate you. My intention here was simply to inject some concerns about clarity of language in a discussion that is beclouded by a lack of such clarity.

You are not helping that clarity by refusing to answer my question.

[zerinus]

Would you like to know what definition I was using? Because so far I don't think anyone has asked me.

Yes, I do. Please tell.

[Hannah Rebekah]

Why not use Christian?

Good point...the Evangelicals prefer to use that title but to deny us the use of Christian....what gives.