Do Mormons Worship Joseph Smith?

[Pahoran]

Zak,

I fully expected Mormons to be able to find some anonymous individuals online shooting their mouths off with such intemperate remarks. I can find statements by Mormons that would embarrass you as well. Such examples are not meaningful or significant in this context.

Then what would be? Since there is no single body that speaks for American conservative Protestantism, or that can stake out official positions, censure or correct anyone who has spoken out of turn, it follows that in the last analysis, all self-styled "Evangelicals," from Rob Bowman to Richard Mouw to Mike Hucksterbee, are merely "anonymous individuals shooting their mouths off."

Was your CFR really asking for some sort of official "Statement on Mormonism" from some kind of EV "General Authority?" You'd be on pretty safe ground there, wouldn't you?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

I notice that no one has yet come up with any references for the second CFR.

Incidentally, and just FWIW: I have always understood the CFR rule here as applying to assertions made in this forum. Not to assertions made elsewhere by participants in this forum, whether linked here or otherwise. So your CFR has no force and entails no obligations on anyone.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Rob Bowman]

Pahoran,

You wrote:

Incidentally, and just FWIW: I have always understood the CFR rule here as applying to assertions made in this forum. Not to assertions made elsewhere by participants in this forum, whether linked here or otherwise. So your CFR has no force and entails no obligations on anyone.

Okay. But one would think that the person linking to his own web article would be desirous of documenting his claim, if he can.

[Rob Bowman]

Pahoran,

Your other post, to which I just responded, was quite reasonable. This one is not.

SGW actually claimed that such individuals as Bill McKeever had made the criticism that Mormons worship Joseph Smith. I'm still waiting for documentation on that one -- and since he made it in this forum the CFR applies. Show me that such publicly active, known evangelical critics of Mormonism make this criticism, and I'll consider the CFR amply answered. Cite "ImaFundy4322" and don't be surprised at my not taking such a reference seriously.

Then what would be? Since there is no single body that speaks for American conservative Protestantism, or that can stake out official positions, censure or correct anyone who has spoken out of turn, it follows that in the last analysis, all self-styled "Evangelicals," from Rob Bowman to Richard Mouw to Mike Hucksterbee, are merely "anonymous individuals shooting their mouths off."

Was your CFR really asking for some sort of official "Statement on Mormonism" from some kind of EV "General Authority?" You'd be on pretty safe ground there, wouldn't you?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Cite "ImaFundy4322" and don't be surprised at my not taking such a reference seriously.

Lol, that is funny. I am going to use that as my knew name when I join another board.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

Your other post, to which I just responded, was quite reasonable. This one is not.

SGW actually claimed that such individuals as Bill McKeever had made the criticism that Mormons worship Joseph Smith. I'm still waiting for documentation on that one -- and since he made it in this forum the CFR applies. Show me that such publicly active, known evangelical critics of Mormonism make this criticism, and I'll consider the CFR amply answered. Cite "ImaFundy4322" and don't be surprised at my not taking such a reference seriously.

Feel free to take a look at this site. Despite receiving a large number of corrections to their propaganda over the years, they maintain that we regard Joseph as "equal to" Jesus. In so doing, they are faithfully following the EV tradition of bearing false witness against the Latter-day Saints. The outfit in question is a gang of fundie poms called "Reachout Trust," or ROT for short.

Like all anti-Mormons, their entire output is rot; however, I give them credit for having the courage of their prejudices. No smarmy prevarications or weaselly concessions to PC-ness for them!

It's about time you broke down and admitted that SGW wasn't making anything up. EV Prots have been peddling this falsehood against us for years. The "ImaFundy4322" types aren't pulling this out of thin air; they're just mindlessly regurgitating the lies that EV "research" (heh heh) cabals tell them.

Regards,

Pahoran

[SeattleGhostWriter]

I recently went to an LDS servoce where my kids were participating in the Father's Day program. My musical duties at my own church usually conflict with the time of service, but I was able to make special arrangements to attend.

At the service, I saw a woman who had been baptized go through the LDS procedure of the laying on of hands. I also participated in singing most of the hymns on program for the day.

"Praise to the Man" was the only song I did not participate in singing. It was the first time I had seen the lyrics and I will say it made me a bit uncomfortable. The song does seem to suggest the uplifting and praising of Joseph Smith.. at least that is how it seems to me. If uplifting someone and praising them, is an act of worship, then it would stand to reason LDS seem to have a worshipful posture when singing that song. I imagine it depends on how one defines what "worship" really is.

I really don't know the answer to the question.

That being said, I think something relevant regarding the OP question is this. Do LDS believe the salvation they believe they have received is due in some portion to Joseph Smith?

I think that question is worthy of consideration when examining if Joseph Smith is part of the LDS paradigm of worship.

Out of curiosity, did you read the actual article on Praise to the Man? It goes through and analyze what I understand and interpret what Praise to the Man is and what the lyrics behind the song mean.

[Rob Bowman]

Pahoran,

You wrote:

Feel free to take a look at this site. Despite receiving a large number of corrections to their propaganda over the years, they maintain that we regard Joseph as "equal to" Jesus.

Okay, this definitely rises to the level of a legitimate response to my CFR. I have sent an email to the organization concerning the article. I'll let you know what happens.

You wrote:

In so doing, they are faithfully following the EV tradition of bearing false witness against the Latter-day Saints.... Like all anti-Mormons, their entire output is rot....

For someone concerned about fair representation of your own religion, you're quick to make unfair misrepresentations of my entire religious tradition on the basis of some of its adherents. I don't do this to you; why are you doing it to me (see Matt. 7:12)? Is bearing false witness against Latter-day Saints bad but bearing false witness against evangelicals okay?

You wrote:

It's about time you broke down and admitted that SGW wasn't making anything up.

You successfully answered one of the two CFRs. I fully expected someone to find some evangelical source somewhere meeting the CFR for the first issue. I don't expect you to find anything for the second. But again, I'm open to being shown facts supporting any allegation. Are you?

You wrote:

EV Prots have been peddling this falsehood against us for years. The "ImaFundy4322" types aren't pulling this out of thin air; they're just mindlessly regurgitating the lies that EV "research" (heh heh) cabals tell them.

I take exception to and offense at your snide generalizations that are clearly aimed at me when you know full well that I don't make such criticisms of the LDS religion. It's probably too much to expect an apology, but perhaps you can be convinced to refrain from such comments in the future.

Or maybe not.

[Calm]

Hi Lehi

I could go either way I suppose, it's rather difficult to answer with accuracy about something I don't hold a belief in. More speculation than anything else.

On the one hand, according to LDS claims, JS did do a lot of things. Restoring the priesthood, correct baptism and so forth. In that respect, JS was the gate opener to the Celestial Kingdom and does seem set apart. So I would likely consider him a part of worship paradigm in some respect.

On the other, if a person thought that JS simply fulfilled his role and if he had not done so God would have found another, then Joseph Smith at that point becomes a marginal character of circustance and I wouldn't consider him a part of LDS worship in that respect.

Mudcat, how would you describe Moses' or Paul's contribution to God's work? Do you see them as marginal characters of circumstance? Edited August 12, 2011 by calmoriah

[Mudcat]

Out of curiosity, did you read the actual article on Praise to the Man? It goes through and analyze what I understand and interpret what Praise to the Man is and what the lyrics behind the song mean.

I skimmed it SGW.

Your post, article aside, seemed focused on the song. The song was something I have only experienced once, and I gave my thoughts on the matter.

I have looked at the article a bit better and stopped reading when I read this bit.

On June 27, 1844, Joseph Smith and his brother were murdered/martyred by a Christian Mob. If anything, this is the Mountain Meadows Massacre of early Christianity in America.

IMO, bold mine, that is hyperbole of the worst sort and it's the sort of hyperbole that seeks to vindicate the MMM in the same process. At this point I have dismissed the remainder of the article, as unduly slanted. 2 LDS men died at Carthage jail, who were being held for riot and treason, at the hands of a mob vs. 120 settlers (men, women and children) headed from AK to CA by LDS at the MMM.

That is a 60 to 1 ratio and circumstantially a poor joke of metaphor on writers part.

If you think the song alliterates to such a direction, it is certainly one I don't see any good reason to follow.

Mudcat

Edited August 12, 2011 by Mudcat

[KevinG]

Rob you mayfind Pahoran's responses snide but I hardly think pointing out the bad behaviorof a plurality of evangelicals is bearing false witness.

In my 24+ years of Mormonism accross five states and in many towns I have routinely been the victim of rumors and falsehoods by many evangelicals, non-denominational and "Christians" of various

stripes. Most of them parroted the standard falsehoods and accusations (Mormons aren't Christians, worship a different Jesus, are deceptive, are cultists in the pejorative sense, etc.) Those are mild examples. A childhood friend of my wife ended up screaming (she called it testifying) that my pregnant wife was carrying the spawn of Satan. I was physically accosted on a train and chased about by a "Christian" trying to cast my devil out because he felt my silently reading the D&C to myself on the train was an offense to God. I have also lost jobs and been denied housing due to my religious preference. My high

school aged children were excluded from an ecumenical bible study before school hours due to their religion. In recent years I have watched Mormon political candidates treated to calumny and rumor of all kinds coming from such professed Christian men like Governor Huckaby and the most Reverend Al Sharpton. Granted most of these people were tutored by anti-Mormons and not the source of the original persecutions an lies, but they took to their lessons of hatred well.

I assume your presence here on the boards is an attempt to practice yourarguments against Mormonism in order to refine your publications and ministryagainst my religion. If that is your purpose I ask you to consider verycarefully what kind of acting out your lessons about Mormonism to fellow"Christians" results in. I may be wrong but if I am I cannot findanother reason why you spend so much time trying to define my own beliefs forme, when they are indeed not what I or my fellow Saints believe.

Forgive me if I am doubting your motives unjustly, but my experience withprofessed Christians who do not offer me the privilege of defining my ownbelief in Jesus Christ my Savior as "Christian" has been verynegative - not even accounting for my own foolish diversions into the virtualworld of apologetics where I figure I deserve to read rumors and falsehoods byvolunteering to engage in these discussions.

Accuse Pahoran and others of snarkiness or snide remarks if you will, but forevery protest of false witness against sect of the Christian community thereare hundreds of examples of behavior just like the ones he is referencing. Ifyou really want respect specialize in your own understanding of the Gospel ofJesus Christ and preach that good word. Don't waste our time and yours by trying to debunk other belief systems you don't even comprehend fully.

[Pahoran]

Okay, this definitely rises to the level of a legitimate response to my CFR. I have sent an email to the organization concerning the article. I'll let you know what happens.

I'll be interested to hear it.

For someone concerned about fair representation of your own religion, you're quick to make unfair misrepresentations of my entire religious tradition on the basis of some of its adherents. I don't do this to you; why are you doing it to me (see Matt. 7:12)? Is bearing false witness against Latter-day Saints bad but bearing false witness against evangelicals okay?

No. However we come back to a problem I alluded to earlier: there being no EV "General Authorities" anywhere, all anyone has to go on, when attempting to determine what American conservative Protestants are on about, is what the "adherents" say and do. And I point out that it's not just the fact that some EV's say such things. Accepting that the propagandists are a minority, the fact is that they are peddling a product to a marketplace -- namely, the EV marketplace -- and if the continued activity of such groups is any indicator, it appears that there is a steady, if not growing, demand for their product in that marketplace.

If someone was to stand up in your Church next Sunday and announce that "Them Marmunz worship ol' Joe Smith," do you really expect him to be pelted with eggs? Or greeted with a chorus of boos and cries of "shame?"

You successfully answered one of the two CFRs. I fully expected someone to find some evangelical source somewhere meeting the CFR for the first issue. I don't expect you to find anything for the second. But again, I'm open to being shown facts supporting any allegation. Are you?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not especially attached to the second assertion and have not supported it. While I wouldn't put anything past the Aaron Shafavaloff/Matt Slick/CARM crowd, I have yet to come across an EV proposing a "Carthage Greys Re-enactment Society" or a "Thomas C. Sharp Fan Club."

FWIW, if it's any comfort to you, I don't regard you as part of that crowd.

But I have yet to see a single reason why I should regard any of the many EV-sponsored "ministries" or "outreaches" or "research institutes" as anything more than propaganda mills with self-serving titles.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Rob you mayfind Pahoran's responses snide but I hardly think pointing out the bad behaviorof a plurality of evangelicals is bearing false witness.

Daddy,

In fairness to all concerned, I'd suggest a modification of that. I think it entirely fair to say that a plurality -- or even a majority -- of EV's who write and publish about the Church of Jesus Christ are indeed bearing false witness. But they are, themselves, a rather small minority of EV's over all. I don't hold EV anti-Mormons as representative of all EV's any more than, say, EV anti-Semites would be.

Regards,

Pahoran

[KevinG]

Daddy,

In fairness to all concerned, I'd suggest a modification of that. I think it entirely fair to say that a plurality -- or even a majority -- of EV's who write and publish about the Church of Jesus Christ are indeed bearing false witness. But they are, themselves, a rather small minority of EV's over all. I don't hold EV anti-Mormons as representative of all EV's any more than, say, EV anti-Semites would be.

Regards,

Pahoran

Thank you- that is fair. I'm in a mood tonight. Some ward members started a facebook discussion about the political debates and I have spent some time defending the innocent Christians who have been fed and repeat untruths without knowing it.

[Mudcat]

Mudcat, how would you describe Moses' or Paul's contribution to God's work?

Significant of course. If we agree with the claims, Moses wrote the Pentateuch and Paul a significant portion of the NT.

Do you see them as marginal characters of circumstance?

Yes I do. I think it is great they followed God, but had they not, he would have achieved his will through other means. I see the them as servants of God who recognized their servitude.

[Zakuska]

Here is another recent example...

I think if you look at the definition of the word worship, and then watch this video, you will see that Mormons worship Joseph Smith. You decide...

And another from... "Jesus Christ Saves Ministrys"

As you can see, there are several problems with this song. Christians refrain from singing about Paul, Peter and the "Christian greats." Why would we sing praises about a created, human being?

It is obvious that the Mormon church tries to establish Joseph Smith's credibility through worshiping Him. If they can get their congregation to sing about him being a prophet and chosen man of God, they can get them to believe and keep believing that he was who he claimed to be.

http://www.jcsm.org/WR/MHB.htm

One has to wonder why the Bible praises so many mere men:

Genesis 49:8

¶ Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.

Proverbs 27:1-2

1 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

2 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

Proverbs 31:30

Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.

Song of Solomon 6:9

My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.

Ecclesiasted 4:2

Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.

Isaiah 62:7

And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem an object of praise in the earth. (see NET Bible footnote)

Zephaniah 3: 19-20 (speaking of Israel)

19 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

20 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

Romans 13:3

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

1 Cor 11:2

Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Zakuska

[Ahab]

Significant of course. If we agree with the claims, Moses wrote the Pentateuch and Paul a significant portion of the NT.

Joseph Smith wrote or "transcribed" more than them both, combined... by writing/transcribing the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, a 7 volume manuscript 'History of the Church' (which includes some of what in the D&C so don't count the pages of the same writings twice), a revision of the Holy Bible which included what we now have as the book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, the book of Abraham, and some writings/letters we don't have copies of like we don't have copies of some of the letters/writings of Paul.

Plus, not only did Joseph Smith write a bunch more stuff than both Moses and Paul, combined, but he also played a key role in the restoration of the holy priesthood after the order of the Son of God (also called the order of Melchizedek) to all of us mortals who are ordained through a physical connection that goes back to Joseph and Oliver Cowdery, through which The (true) Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-day Saints) could be and now is present among mortals on this Earth.

Not too shabby for an unlearned farm boy who didn't think much of himself, personally.

Yes I do. I think it is great they followed God, but had they not, he would have achieved his will through other means. I see the them as servants of God who recognized their servitude.

And so too with Joseph, yet Joseph was the one God chose to do that work and he did it, so when he gets rewarded for the "works" that he did his "works" will include alll that God did through him.

[Rob Bowman]

DaddyG,

Most of your comments proceed from the premise that I am trying to define your own beliefs for you against what you yourself say you believe. This is simply not the case. If you tell me that you believe something, or that you don't, I will take you at your word.

I have been subjected to harassment and vilification on the basis of false and highly offensive accusations from Mormons for the past several years. We can trade such stories or use them to characterize each other's religion, or we can recognize that there are jerks in all religions and not make the mistake of claiming that such individuals are representative of their religions.

[Pahoran]

DaddyG,

Most of your comments proceed from the premise that I am trying to define your own beliefs for you against what you yourself say you believe. This is simply not the case. If you tell me that you believe something, or that you don't, I will take you at your word.

I have been subjected to harassment and vilification on the basis of false and highly offensive accusations from Mormons for the past several years. We can trade such stories or use them to characterize each other's religion, or we can recognize that there are jerks in all religions and not make the mistake of claiming that such individuals are representative of their religions.

While it is sad that you have been subjected to such harassment and vilification, there is an important unparallel to DaddyG's experience. His attackers had an array of standard EV anti-Mormon polemic in their egg trays. Your Mormon attackers don't have anything comparable, do they?

Have you heard back from ROT yet? Any chance they'll be stopping the ROT any time soon?

Regards,

Pahoran