Rob Bowman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 SGW,You wrote:Count how many evangelical Christians make the claim that Mormons (and support that assertion) worship Joseph Smith: I counted...ZERO. Not one of the evangelicals in that long excerpt said that Mormons "worship" Joseph Smith.You wrote:How about Rocky Hulse of Mormon Missions Outreach Ministry where he published an online article exposing Praise to the Man as being a song sung in praise to Joseph Smith. Clearly Hulse is an evangelical Christian.I also object to the hymn. Where did Hulse say that Mormons "worship" Joseph Smith?Here are a list of others. Lee Grenier of LDS/Awareness Facebook page and Apostate Mormon. Bob Betts of Mormon & LDS Awareness. Bill McKeever of Mormon Research Ministry, CARM, shall I continue with my list? Are these not satisfying enough for you? Or, do you wish to have more and more damning evidence and still deny that Christians would say such things? Where did any of these people say that Mormons "worship" Joseph Smith?
Rob Bowman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Lehi,You wrote:How's this:"It's amazing the Mormons still claim persecution of their prophet. Read and see if you don't think he was deserving of his fate."—NeighborI'm not going to spend a long time locating any more quotations, but this one fits pretty well. I don't see this quote extolling or praising those who killed Joseph Smith. Besides, I am going to hold you to the same standard I would expect you to hold me. I am not going to argue, for example, that "many Mormons say Trinitarians are atheists" if my only example is an anonymous poster on a discussion forum who may be a Mormon. Likewise, one anonymous individual making a statement like that quoted above does not meet a reasonable expectation of the CFR.You wrote:The Nauvoo Expositor was one long justification for killing Joseph Smith. Tom Sharp's Warsaw Signal ran weeks' worth of such justification, and put out extras telling the people of Hancock County to kill him, and Hyrum, too. Captain Smith of the Carthage Greys Yellows, was a Protestant minister—he was one of the leaders of the mob who killed them. You might claim these last were not "Evangelicals", but their spirit lives on. These were before the fact, and I'm not even sure your characterization of what these sources said is accurate. The CFR was for a claim that many evangelicals today extol and praise those who killed Joseph Smith.
Pahoran Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I counted...ZERO. Not one of the evangelicals in that long excerpt said that Mormons "worship" Joseph Smith.There's an old joke about an American visitor to New Zealand who bought a horse from a Maori farmer. The farmer warned the buyer, "That horse don't look too good.""He looks fine to me," said the American. "I'm a pretty good judge of horseflesh, and I say he's fine."The next day the buyer came back to complain. "That horse you sold me is blind!""Ai" said the Maori. "I told you he don't look too good."I think you don't look too good either. Note, for example, this one:Justin Rasmussen If your praising Joesph Smith then you have made him an idol. Which the Bible says we are not to do. So only praise and worship BELONG TO GOD.What does it mean to make someone an idol? Try to look a bit better, Rob.On the previous page, Lehi quoted TJ Hall's long list of accusations to the effect that we worship Joseph Smith and lie about it. You "yawned" about it, saying that he was "acknowledging" our position while merely thinking "that, in his terminology, they do."That is an astonishingly gratuitous bit of special pleading. The fact is that the worthless Mr Hall was bearing false witness against us and poisoning the well in the process, and you apparently couldn't see it. Another example of how you don't look too good.Not when the false witness-bearing coming from your own is under the spotlight, anyhow. I also object to the hymn.Is that because you like making censorious pontifications, or because you think the hymn constitutes "worship?"As to the other charge: I have no immediate recollection of having come across conservative American Protestants who "actually extol and praise the mob for killing Joseph Smith." I have come across conservative American Protestants who claim that Joseph "forced" the mob to kill him by shooting at them. And I came across one across conservative American Protestant who insisted that Boggs was entirely justified in issuing the Extermination Order, because what else could a Christian governor do?Regards,Pahoran 2
Cobalt-70 Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Really? Which ones?CFR, please: which Mormons "actually believed" this, and just how "substantial" was the number?Regards,PahoranFor a discussion of the early Mormon doctrine that Joseph Smith was the Holy Ghost, see Swanson, "The Development of the concept of the Holy Ghost in Mormon Theology", p. 97. He says the belief was "widespread."
Rob Bowman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Pahoran,I have no trouble disagreeing with other evangelicals' criticisms of Mormonism when they are off base. For example, I have gone on record strongly disagreeing with much of what Dave Hunt and Ed Decker have said about Mormonism. So your attempt to characterize me as blind to the faults of other evangelicals doesn't take into account my whole body of work.Justin's statement, which you quoted, comes closest to saying that Mormons worship Joseph Smith. Like Hall, his comment implies that while Mormons deny that they worship Joseph what they do could be described that way. The CFR had to do with the specific claim that evangelicals misrepresent Mormons by alleging simpliciter that they worship Joseph Smith. If an evangelical shows that he is aware of the fact that Mormons deny doing so, but then explains why he thinks Mormon adulation of Joseph Smith is nevertheless tantamount to worship, that is a disagreement, not a misrepresentation.As for the second CFR, it isn't my fault if the original claim (that many evangelicals actually praise those who killed Joseph) was overstated and can't be substantiated. As I see it, "Seattle" should just humbly admit that this was an over-the-top misrepresentation of evangelicals.
Ahab Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Pahoran,I have no trouble disagreeing with other evangelicals' criticisms of Mormonism when they are off base. For example, I have gone on record strongly disagreeing with much of what Dave Hunt and Ed Decker have said about Mormonism. So your attempt to characterize me as blind to the faults of other evangelicals doesn't take into account my whole body of work.Justin's statement, which you quoted, comes closest to saying that Mormons worship Joseph Smith. Like Hall, his comment implies that while Mormons deny that they worship Joseph what they do could be described that way. The CFR had to do with the specific claim that evangelicals misrepresent Mormons by alleging simpliciter that they worship Joseph Smith. If an evangelical shows that he is aware of the fact that Mormons deny doing so, but then explains why he thinks Mormon adulation of Joseph Smith is nevertheless tantamount to worship, that is a disagreement, not a misrepresentation.As for the second CFR, it isn't my fault if the original claim (that many evangelicals actually praise those who killed Joseph) was overstated and can't be substantiated. As I see it, "Seattle" should just humbly admit that this was an over-the-top misrepresentation of evangelicals.Rob,Am I to understand that YOU are saying Mormons do not worship Joseph Smith?Even if I find another "evangelical" who will say that we do, I'll still remember what YOU say and what you would tell that "evangelical" to straighten him out: No, Mormons do NOT worship Joseph Smith!Now, for the record, just come out and say it so I can count that testimony to your credit.
Rob Bowman Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Ahab,You wrote:Rob,Am I to understand that YOU are saying Mormons do not worship Joseph Smith?Even if I find another "evangelical" who will say that we do, I'll still remember what YOU say and what you would tell that "evangelical" to straighten him out: No, Mormons do NOT worship Joseph Smith!Now, for the record, just come out and say it so I can count that testimony to your credit.I don't think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. I do think they show undue reverence or adulation to Joseph Smith.
LeSellers Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 [The Nauvoo Expositor and the Warsaw Signal editorials/content] were before the fact, and I'm not even sure your characterization of what these sources said is accurate.Evidence, I believe, will show you wrong in this opinion. War and extermination is inevitable! Citizens ARISE, ONE and ALL!!!—Can you stand by, and suffer such INFERNAL DEVILS! to ROB men of their property and RIGHTS, without avenging them. We have no time for comment, every man will make his own. LET IT BE MADE WITH POWDER AND BALL!!! [His emphasis, punctuation as in the original]Warsaw SignalJune 11, 1844We are earnestly seeking to explode the vicious principles of Joseph Smith, and those who practice the same abominations and whoredoms; which we verily know are not accordant and consonant with the principles of Jesus Christ and the Apostles; and for that purpose, and with that end in view, with an eye single to the glory of God, we have dared to gird on the armor, and with God at our head, we most solemnly and sincerely declare that the sword of truth shall not depart from the thigh, nor the buckler from the arm, until we can enjoy those glorious privileges which nature's God and our country's laws have guarantied to us-freedom of speech, the liberty of the press, and the right to worship God as seemeth us good.-We are aware, however, that we are hazarding every earthly blessing, particularly property, and probably life itself, in striking this blow at tyranny and oppression: yet notwithstanding we most solemnly declare that no man, or set of men combined, shall, with impunity, violate obligations as sacred as many which have been violated unless reason, justice and virtue have become ashamed and sought the haunts of the grave, though our lives be the forfeiture. ...... Will you, gentlemen of Hancock County, support a man like that, who claims to move in a different sphere, a sphere entirely above you, one who will trifle with the things of God, and feign converse with the Divinity, for the sake of carrying an election? I will unhesitatingly assume to myself the responsibility of answering in the negative. I flatter myself you are not so depraved, and so blinded to your own interests, as to support a man totally ignorant of the laws of your country, and in every respect alienated from you and your interests. In supporting Hyrum Smith, you Citizens of Hancock County, are supporting Joseph Smith, for whom he (Hyrum) goes teeth and toe nails, for President of the United States. The question may arise here, in voting for Joseph Smith, for whom am I voting? You are voting for a man who contends all governments are to be put down and the one established upon its ruins. You are voting for an enemy to your government, hear Phelps to Joe in his affidavit before Judge King of Missouri:--"Have you come to the point to resist all law?" "I have," says Joe. You are voting for a sycophant, whose attempt for power find [sic] no parallel in history. You are voting for a man who refuses to suffer criminals to be brought to justice, but in the stead thereof rescues them from the just demands of the law, by Habeas Corpus. You are voting for a man who stands indicted, and who is now held to bail, for the crimes of adultery and perjury; two of the gravest crimes known to our laws. Query not then for whom you are voting, it is for one of the blackest and basest scoundrels that has appeared upon the stage of human existence since the days of Nero, and Caligula. ...The publishers, therefore, deep it a sacred duty they owe to their country and their fellow citizens, to advocate, through the columns of the Expositor, the UNCONDITIONAL REPEAL OF THE NAUVOO CITY CHARTER; to restrain and correct the abuses of the Unit Power; to ward off the Iron Rod which is held over the devoted heads of the citizens of Nauvoo and the surrounding country; to advocate unmitigated disobedience to Political Revelations, and to censure and decry gross moral imperfections wherever found, either in the Plebian, Patrician, or self-constituted Monarch [i.e., Joseph Smith];...While the Higbees, et al., explicitly claimed they renounced the use of "carnal weapons" except in the case of self-defense, it is interesting that most of them were in the mob that attacked Joseph and Hyrum a few days later. One is left to ponder just what these (among a host of others) fighting words could possibly have had as their aim, if not to stir up people against Joseph, and, given the eventual outcome, including the participation of the Higbees and their fellow conspirators, reasonable alternatives are few. It is true that these pieces were "before the fact" (which I acknowledged when I raised them). It is not true, however, that they are not evidence of people's ardently desiring the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum. Furthermore, given that Captain, the Reverend Mr. Smith of the Carthage Yellows, was an instigator of these proceedings, it is inescapable that the "Christian church" was involved, directly. We also find it pertinent that while the four who were accused of the murder per se we not tried because they fled justice, none of the mobsters were convicted, and many were rewarded by the townspeople of Carthage and Warsaw. Clothing being the most frequent (aIr) gift for their dastardly deeds. See Dallin Oakes’ excellent (and unchallenged) work on the subject: The Carthage Conspiracy. Lehi
LeSellers Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I don't think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. I do think they show undue reverence or adulation to Joseph Smith.A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.Romeo and JulietDoes this not tell us that the names of things do not matter, that what matters is what things are? 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. 2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning. 3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.to show excessive admiration or devotion to; flatter or admire servilely. 1. a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration. 2. the outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence. 3. a gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy. If "worship" is defined as "adulation" and "reverence", then your distinction is one without a difference. By that standard, you are, indeed, accusing us of worshiping Joseph Smith. Lehi
altersteve Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) This song is even better:http://www.youtube.c...notation_999865I just think that the early lds needed to remember their prophet and for all that he did for them. So, they created songs to sing and do him honor.My favorite hymn. I absolutely love this song.("A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief," I mean.) Edited August 10, 2011 by altersteve
Ahab Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Ahab,You wrote:I don't think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. I do think they show undue reverence or adulation to Joseph Smith.Thank you for making your sentiments clear, and for the record I would have you know that I believe he is due the reverence and adulation we give to him.
Ahab Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Does this not tell us that the names of things do not matter, that what matters is what things are? If "worship" is defined as "adulation" and "reverence", then your distinction is one without a difference. By that standard, you are, indeed, accusing us of worshiping Joseph Smith. LehiI think he's on safe ground as long as he doesn't call our "respect" or "regard" or "admiration" or "adoration" for Joseph: "worship".It's a very fine line, but the line is there.We do not "worship" Joseph Smith in the way that we worship God, our Father, or Jesus Christ, or the Holy Ghost.What we do or how we feel in regards to Joseph does come pretty close, though.
Mark Beesley Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I don't think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. I do think they show undue reverence or adulation to Joseph Smith.Rob,This is a rather interesting statement, i.e. that you think Latter-day Saints show undue reverence or adulation for the Prophet. That implies that some reverence and adulation my be due depending on the circumstances. Could it be that you think it is undue because you reject him as a prophet? Would you still think the same if you knew of a surety that Joseph Smith was and did everything he claimed?1. Restored true knowledge of the nature of God.2. Restored true knowledge about our relationship to God.3. Translated a holy book of scripture with an account of the ministry of the Savior in America.4. Restored the priesthood of God.5. Restored true knowlege about Temples.6. Was visted by God the Father and the Savior.7. Was visited by John the Baptist, Peter, James and John.8. Was visited by Elijah, Moses, Elias, and other ancient prohets.IF all of this is true, and you knew it, would you still think that singing Praise to the Man would be showing undue reverence and adulation for the Prophet?I'm just asking that you try to look at the issue through the eyes of a Latter-day Saint. 3
LeSellers Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) I'm just asking that you try to look at the issue through the eyes of a Latter-day Saint.The issue, however, is not what we Saints think of the Prophet of the Restoration, but how "outsiders" feel about what we do, how we pray, what we sing. The problem I see is that this "them Marmunz worship Joseph Smith" claptrap is exactly the same one as the "them Marmunz ain't Christains" drivel: they want to paint us as "other" so The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not appear to be The Church of Jesus Christ. It's all about "sheep-stealing": they are afraid their paychecks will dry up. Lehi Edited August 10, 2011 by LeSellers 4
Mudcat Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) I recently went to an LDS servoce where my kids were participating in the Father's Day program. My musical duties at my own church usually conflict with the time of service, but I was able to make special arrangements to attend.At the service, I saw a woman who had been baptized go through the LDS procedure of the laying on of hands. I also participated in singing most of the hymns on program for the day. "Praise to the Man" was the only song I did not participate in singing. It was the first time I had seen the lyrics and I will say it made me a bit uncomfortable. The song does seem to suggest the uplifting and praising of Joseph Smith.. at least that is how it seems to me. If uplifting someone and praising them, is an act of worship, then it would stand to reason LDS seem to have a worshipful posture when singing that song. I imagine it depends on how one defines what "worship" really is.I really don't know the answer to the question.That being said, I think something relevant regarding the OP question is this. Do LDS believe the salvation they believe they have received is due in some portion to Joseph Smith? I think that question is worthy of consideration when examining if Joseph Smith is part of the LDS paradigm of worship. Edited August 10, 2011 by Mudcat
LeSellers Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I think something relevant regarding the OP question is this. Do LDS believe the salvation they believe they have received is due in some portion to Joseph Smith? I think that question is worthy of consideration when examining if Joseph Smith is part of the LDS paradigm of worship.And, from your point of view, how would you answer your question?Lehi
Mudcat Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 And, from your point of view, how would you answer your question?LehiHi LehiI could go either way I suppose, it's rather difficult to answer with accuracy about something I don't hold a belief in. More speculation than anything else.On the one hand, according to LDS claims, JS did do a lot of things. Restoring the priesthood, correct baptism and so forth. In that respect, JS was the gate opener to the Celestial Kingdom and does seem set apart. So I would likely consider him a part of worship paradigm in some respect.On the other, if a person thought that JS simply fulfilled his role and if he had not done so God would have found another, then Joseph Smith at that point becomes a marginal character of circustance and I wouldn't consider him a part of LDS worship in that respect. I suppose there are other permutations I haven't considered, but I do admit, the idea that LDS do have a song that does seem to apply praise directly to JS, then I would trend to the former to some degree.Kind Regards,Mudcat
thesometimesaint Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Mudcat:JS did not open the gates to the Celestial Kingdom. Jesus the Christ did. JS reminded us of that fact.
LeSellers Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 What we do or how we feel in regards to Joseph does come pretty close [to worship], though.I have to disagree with you here. We don't come close at all to worshiping Joseph Smith, not in any way. "Worship" implies that he is our god. He is not. (This is similar to why I dislike beinig called a "Mormon", or calling the Church "the Mormon Church": we do not worship Mormon, either, irrespective of how great a man he was.) We worship God. While we honor Joseph for his accomplishments on the command of God, and on our own behalf, too, he does not merit worship, and we do not give it to him. No man, Jesus Christ excepted, ever did more for the salvation of mankind than did Joseph Smith, but his work could have been done by otehrs. We recall, for instance, that Brigham and Joseph Young were only a few hours up the road, so to speak, and were fully capable of (but not called) doing it had Joseph "missed the bus". So were many others, John Taylor among them. Furthermore, we honor Joseph solely because he was a prophet of God, what he was, not who he was. We worship God, and Christ precisely because of Who They are. Lehi
Mudcat Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 Mudcat:JS did not open the gates to the Celestial Kingdom. Jesus the Christ did. JS reminded us of that fact.Hi TSS,Sorry, that may have been a bad metaphor.. perhaps it was overly strong. But I think your notion that JS simply "reminded" everyone about the Celestial Kingdom, shifts the pendulum to a weaker position than what it seems. Regards,Mudcat
Ahab Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I have to disagree with you here.No, you don't have to. You're just disagreeing because you think I don't agree with you.We don't come close at all to worshiping Joseph Smith, not in any way.So you think all of the people who think we do are just pulling that idea out of thin air?I think they see us doing or feeling something pretty close to what they consider to "worship" to be... like singing a song about someone's accomplishments in his life... and then they say: Hey! You guys are "worshipping" Joseph Smith!Maybe it's the fact that we sing songs like that in our chapels that confuses them. I really don't know, for sure, but it does seem that many people think we come pretty close to what they consider "worship" to be when expressing how we feel about Joseph and what he did to try to help us.I think they're just a little confused about what "worship" actually is."Worship" implies that he is our god. He is not.He was on his way to becoming like our Father, though, wasn't he?Maybe it's the fact that we think we can become like our Father in heaven, like Joseph said we could, that is irritating to some people.(This is similar to why I dislike beinig called a "Mormon", or calling the Church "the Mormon Church": we do not worship Mormon, either, irrespective of how great a man he was.) Some people call it the "Mormon" church... notice the shift in emphasis... because it's the Church of... Latter-day Saints AS WELL AS the Church of Jesus Christ.It actually is Mormon's church, too, as he is one of the members of it.We worship God. While we honor Joseph for his accomplishments on the command of God, and on our own behalf, too, he does not merit worship, and we do not give it to him. No man, Jesus Christ excepted, ever did more for the salvation of mankind than did Joseph Smith, but his work could have been done by others. We recall, for instance, that Brigham and Joseph Young were only a few hours up the road, so to speak, and were fully capable of (but not called) doing it had Joseph "missed the bus". So were many others, John Taylor among them. Furthermore, we honor Joseph solely because he was a prophet of God, what he was, not who he was. We worship God, and Christ precisely because of Who They are. We worship our Father and our Lord because of what they are too, and the whole purpose of the Church is to perfect us as saints until we become perfect like them.Thanks to Joseph, and the work he did as he communed with Jehovah, that purpose is now much easier for us to realize.
KevinG Posted August 10, 2011 Posted August 10, 2011 I don't think Mormons worship Joseph Smith. I do think they show undue reverence or adulation to Joseph Smith.So singing God Bless America doesn't make me a Druid, it just speaks of an undue reverence for purple mountains and waves of grain.
Zakuska Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) Earlier Mr. Bowman asked for examples... Here is one such example just a few minutes ago over on CARM:Identity Withheld:"And Joseph Smith was not God's Son. Had you read the book prior to hooking up with the cult maybe you'd be here worshipping the Son, not some infamous pedophile and adulterer. " Edited August 11, 2011 by Zakuska
Rob Bowman Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 Zak,I fully expected Mormons to be able to find some anonymous individuals online shooting their mouths off with such intemperate remarks. I can find statements by Mormons that would embarrass you as well. Such examples are not meaningful or significant in this context.I notice that no one has yet come up with any references for the second CFR.Earlier Mr. Bowman asked for examples... Here is one such example just a few minutes ago over on CARM:Identity Withheld:"And Joseph Smith was not God's Son. Had you read the book prior to hooking up with the cult maybe you'd be here worshipping the Son, not some infamous pedophile and adulterer. "
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 11, 2011 Posted August 11, 2011 Zak,I notice that no one has yet come up with any references for the second CFR.That is because largely it is a red herring.
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