Lds And Co-Dependency

[Bernard Gui]

We've beaten to death the subject of addiction. Let's take a look at co-dependency

and how it is viewed in the Church.

[blueadept]

Bernard,

Here's a blurb from Susan J. Elliott about Co-Dependency. She is an author, certified grief counselor, motivational speaker, and attorney. Elliott is the author of Getting Past Your Breakup: How to Turn a Devastating Loss Into the Best Thing That Ever Happened to You and appears as a relationship commentator nationally and also locally in the New York City area.

Characteristics of Codependency

Symptoms of Codependency:

Inability to know what "normal" is.

Difficulty in following a project through.

Difficulty having fun.

Judging self, others without mercy.

Low self esteem, often projected onto others. (eg: Why don't they get their act together!)

Difficulty in developing or sustaining meaningful relationships.

Belief that others cause or are responsible for the codependent's emotions.

(Codependents often use language like "you make me feel ______", or "I was made to feel like____")

Overreacting to change. (or intense fear of / inability to deal with change.)

Inability to see alternatives to situations, thus responding very impulsively.

Constantly seeking approval and affirmation, yet having compromised sense of self.

Feelings of being different.

Confusion and sense of inadequacy.

Being either super responsible or super irresponsible. (Or alternating between these.)

Lack of self confidence in making decisions, no sense of power in making choices.

Feeling of fear, insecurity, inadequacy, guilt, hurt, and shame which are denied.

Isolation and fear of people, resentment of authority figures.

Fear of anger or bottling anger up till it explodes.

Hypersensitivity to criticism.

Being addicted to excitement / drama. (Chaos making.)

Dependency upon others and fear of abandonment.

Avoidance of relationships to guard against abandonment fears.

Confusion between love and pity.

Tendency to look for "victims" to help.

Rigidity and need to control.

Lies, when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.

Are you codependent?

Melody Beattie, author of 'Codependent No More' developed this check list:

Do you feel responsible for other people--their feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being and destiny?

Do you feel compelled to help people solve their problems or by trying to take care of their feelings?

Do you find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others than about injustices done to you?

Do you feel safest and most comfortable when you are giving to others?

Do you feel insecure and guilty when someone gives to you?

Do you feel empty, bored and worthless if you don't have someone else to take care of, a problem to solve, or a crisis to deal with?

Are you often unable to stop talking, thinking and worrying about other people and their problems?

Do you lose interest in your own life when you are in love?

Do you stay in relationships that don't work and tolerate abuse in order to keep people loving you?

Do you leave bad relationships only to form new ones that don't work, either?

[One Clear Voice]

We've beaten to death the subject of addiction. Let's take a look at co-dependency

and how it is viewed in the Church.

There was a book written many years ago, titled "Co-Dependant no more". It was recommended so much I even read it. It was my first dealings with this issue. Great book, great self help, I would recommend it to anyone who has this diagnosis!

Oop's didn't see this in the above post! Sorry!

Edited August 4, 2011 by One Clear Voice

[CV75]

I hesitate to characterize addiction, codependency and destructive emotions as "levels" in and of themselves, that addiction is somehow worse or better than codependency or destructive feelings. Addiction, codependency and emotional problems are each experienced in degrees of severity.

I believe, at their roots, codependency and addiction are essentially the same thing, and however we label the problem, codependency has elements of addiction and addiction has elements of codependency. I think we may often assess codependency as primarily an emotional issue and addiction as a physical issue, but the line between the two, especially on the chemical level, is very blurred and sometimes indistinguishable. You may want to set up a working definition of what they are for the purpose of discussing them on this thread.

As far as the church goes, I understand the addiction recovery program to be effective in addressing addiction, codependency and emotional issues in concert with competent medical treatment as needed.

[HeatherAnn]

We've beaten to death the subject of addiction. Let's take a look at co-dependency

and how it is viewed in the Church.

I'm sorry to hear you've been beaten to death by the subject of addiction.

I knew words are powerful, but wow!

IMO... How co-dependency is viewed depends on where & who's considered in this world-wide church... some cultures are more "co-dependent" than others.

The church policy of welfare seems healthy - compassionate, but with a goal of self-reliance.

The church goal of redeeming the dead, may be considered co-dependent (especially in the case with some from the Holocaust), but I'd say it's more compassionate with the idea that those who've passed on can choose.

The church goal of perfecting the saints may encourage co-dependency at times, when some insist on magnifying their callings, depending on certain behavior from others. Yet, I'd say, for the most part, callings encourage the ideal "inter-dependency" - working together.

The church goal of proclaiming the gospel could seem co-dependent in how it is sometimes pursued... like when missionaries don't respect "no soliciting", missionaries are encouraged to teach, & not so much listen, which is one sided of co-dependency. Also, those who question the church, even in respectful ways, are sometimes put down, which is also a form of co-dependency - in depending on another for certain behavior.

In my experience, the church is very practical, but a little naive regarding mental issues, including co-dependency.

I'd LOVE to see more gospel discussions about healthy ways to express love for God, ourselves & others (which are the greatest commandments).

[HeatherAnn]

I hesitate to characterize addiction, codependency and destructive emotions as "levels" in and of themselves, that addiction is somehow worse or better than codependency or destructive feelings. Addiction, codependency and emotional problems are each experienced in degrees of severity.

I believe, at their roots, codependency and addiction are essentially the same thing, and however we label the problem, codependency has elements of addiction and addiction has elements of codependency. I think we may often assess codependency as primarily an emotional issue and addiction as a physical issue, but the line between the two, especially on the chemical level, is very blurred and sometimes indistinguishable. You may want to set up a working definition of what they are for the purpose of discussing them on this thread.

As far as the church goes, I understand the addiction recovery program to be effective in addressing addiction, codependency and emotional issues in concert with competent medical treatment as needed.

I agree - that co-dependency & addictions are often rooted similarly... mostly trying to self-sooth.

Some addictions are more obvious & more stigmitized than others... yet can be just as damaging in one's life.

Do bishops refer individuals, couples or families for counciling?

Are bishops given any training for counciling?

[KevinG]

I agree - that co-dependency & addictions are often rooted similarly... mostly trying to self-sooth.

Some addictions are more obvious & more stigmitized than others... yet can be just as damaging in one's life.

Do bishops refer individuals, couples or families for counciling?

Are bishops given any training for counciling?

Bishops and other leaders have access to LDS Social Services referral resources for individuals and families. In some cases the referral experts will have patients continue with specialists in the local medical and psycological community. It is up to the Bishop to help pay for these services if the ward member needs assistance.

For cases of abuse or predatory behavior there is a hotline to report and get counsel on how to respond appropriately according to local and state law.

[KevinG]

I was torn between they can solve it themselves and they need help. It really depends on how serious the co-dependency issues are and how destructive the behaviors are to the couple.

For example I like really eating cookies and my wife indulges me from time to time. Its not exactly good for me but I doubt it rises to the level of therapy.

[Bernard Gui]

Bernard,

Here's a blurb from Susan J. Elliott about Co-Dependency. She is an author, certified grief counselor, motivational speaker, and attorney. Elliott is the author of Getting Past Your Breakup: How to Turn a Devastating Loss Into the Best Thing That Ever Happened to You and appears as a relationship commentator nationally and also locally in the New York City area.

Melody Beattie, author of 'Codependent No More' developed this check list:

Dang! You stole my thunder!

Did you learn this as a result of experiences in the Church?

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

There was a book written many years ago, titled "Co-Dependant no more". It was recommended so much I even read it. It was my first dealings with this issue. Great book, great self help, I would recommend it to anyone who has this diagnosis!

Oop's didn't see this in the above post! Sorry!

Did you learn about co-dependency as a result

of experience in the Church?

Bernard

Edited August 5, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I was torn between they can solve it themselves and they need help. It really depends on how serious the co-dependency issues are and how destructive the behaviors are to the couple.

For example I like really eating cookies and my wife indulges me from time to time. Its not exactly good for me but I doubt it rises to the level of therapy.

But are you sure?

Bernard

[CV75]

I agree - that co-dependency & addictions are often rooted similarly... mostly trying to self-sooth.

Some addictions are more obvious & more stigmitized than others... yet can be just as damaging in one's life.

Do bishops refer individuals, couples or families for counciling?

Are bishops given any training for counciling?

Yes, bishops do refer to professional, and there is the addiction recovery program. They are not given professional training for counseling.

[CV75]

I've seen a couple of articles in the Ensign over the past 10 years about co-dependent spouses of addicts and what they had to do to face their own issues; the addiction recovery program was part of the solution.

[blueadept]

Dang! You stole my thunder!

Did you learn this as a result of experiences in the Church?

Bernard

I picked up the book 'Getting Past Your Breakup' from Susan Elliott due to the deterioration of my marriage from my LDS wife. Dealing with grief when your significant other moves on without you but I'm suppose to continue to honor my marriage vows isn't easy and I remember a lengthy read she presented on Co-Dependency. You can always learn something so you can move forward in life. I thought we dealt with the dual-faith issue from the beginning, but apparently she changed her mind. I was impressed in the similiarities there were in regards to the grief I've been experiencing as to how it relates to co-dependency.

As one of my quotes states, 'Change is inevitable, but growth is not.'

Edited August 4, 2011 by blueadept

[HeatherAnn]

Bishops and other leaders have access to LDS Social Services referral resources for individuals and families. In some cases the referral experts will have patients continue with specialists in the local medical and psycological community. It is up to the Bishop to help pay for these services if the ward member needs assistance.

For cases of abuse or predatory behavior there is a hotline to report and get counsel on how to respond appropriately according to local and state law.

Yes, bishops do refer to professional, and there is the addiction recovery program. They are not given professional training for counseling.

DaddyG and CV75,

Thanks for explaining that.

IMO, It would be great if bishops could get some type of training.

I know they're busy... but I think it'd be worth it.

[blueadept]

IMO, It would be great if bishops could get some type of training.

I know they're busy... but I think it'd be worth it.

As a non-member who knows my LDS wife and the bishop discussed my marriage issues amongst themselves for the duration of the marriage at times, I may have felt a bit more positive about the ending of my marriage (her choice) if I knew the bishop had some type of training which I knew he didn't.

Too bad I was never part of those meetings.

[LeSellers]

Too bad I was never part of those meetings.

Did you ask to go?

Lehi

[blueadept]

Did you ask to go?

Lehi

I found out about all those discussions after the fact through her best friend. The only discussion I was aware of was when I decided to skip out of priesthood meetings after a couple of years. I knew they discussed that one.

I never really had a major issue with the Mormon faith....just the way my wife practiced it at times.

Edited August 4, 2011 by blueadept

[LeSellers]

I found out about all those discussions after the fact through her best friend. The only discussion I was aware of was when I decided to skip out of priesthood meetings after a couple of years. I knew they discussed that one.

I never really had a major issue with the Mormon faith....just the way my wife practiced it at times.

Ah, well, people can be stupid abou' their pets.

Sometimes, when things are very close to us, we become blind to their nature. So it can be with religion.

Lehi

Edited August 4, 2011 by LeSellers

[Bernard Gui]

I found out about all those discussions after the fact through her best friend. The only discussion I was aware of was when I decided to skip out of priesthood meetings after a couple of years. I knew they discussed that one.

I never really had a major issue with the Mormon faith....just the way my wife practiced it at times.

Bishops are trained never to recommend divorce

when they counsel members who are have marital problems.

Bernard

Edited August 5, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[HeatherAnn]

As a non-member who knows my LDS wife and the bishop discussed my marriage issues amongst themselves for the duration of the marriage at times, I may have felt a bit more positive about the ending of my marriage (her choice) if I knew the bishop had some type of training which I knew he didn't.

Too bad I was never part of those meetings.

Yeah, especially since he did not have counciling training & I'm guessing he knew both of you.

People go into individual professional counseling all the time, but usually, the (professional) councilor doesn't know the spouse.

I'm sorry about how that played out, Blueadept. I imagine that was difficult, but I hope it expands your capacity for love & joy too.

Speaking of marriage counciling...

I was listening to Charles Beckert (lds marriage councilor) "What husbands wish wives, What wives whish husbands... knew about each other."

He mentioned how when he councils couples, he guides them into the counciling room, at first, he looks between both of them (not at either) to see who starts talking first & to let them know he's not taking sides.

Maybe I'll start a new thread about it...

[Bernard Gui]

Mrs. Gui and I learned about co-dependency while doing

what we called the "crazy dance of addiction."

When there's an addict in the house, everyone does the

dance, but with different beats, rhythms, and steps.

For a while, we thought being co-dependent was something

disgraceful and to be ashamed of. What we learned is that

it is what happens when one lives with an addict. Co-dependent

behaviors obtained in childhood can persist unrecognized into

adulthood. We think that's just "the way we are," when in truth

we are and can be very different.

In our experience, various family members took on

the following roles:

The Family...

Detective, constantly searching for evidence in diaries, closets, beds

Policeman, enforcing ever- stricter rules and cosequences

Victim, moping around wondering why this had to happen to them

Puritan, always indignant and put out by the addict's capers

Sad Sack, withdrawn and depressed

Peace Maker, "can't we all just get along?"

Enabler, "if I buy him the iPod, he'll love me again."

Denier, Addict? What addict? It's just a normal stage.

Penitent, If we just had had more Home Evenings....."

Hand Wringer, What will everyone think of us?

Macho Man, suffers in manly silence, but inside is a boiling cauldron.

What we had in common was,

If the addict was doing ok, then we were doing ok.

If the addict was miserable, we were miserable.

even if he/she moves out, gains sobriety, or is incarcerated or dies,

the crazy dance continues. Your lives really got messed

up and you may not even have noticed the change

because you were so fixated on the addict.

Mrs. Gui and I learned we had co-dependent behaviors

learned as children in our parents' families. It's the

gift that keeps on giving.

That, gentle readers, is a family of co-dependents.

Bernard

Edited August 5, 2011 by Bernard Gui

[blueadept]

Bishops are trained never to recommend divorce

when they counsel members who are have marital problems.

Bernard

The bottom-line is that 'It doesn't matter anymore' as Susan Elliott would say, but I have the proper LDS understanding that a Bishop would never recommend divorce. As a nonmember, please don't mind if I'm a pessimist on this point though.

I was told by my wife her reason was due to our religious differences which I can't imagine any bishop endorsing. The end result was that she didn't receive any disciplinary action either so I'm sure there were other things discussed between them to try to biblically justify the whole thing. Like I said, it really doesn't matter what was said. I have no case for an annulment so I will always consider her my wife and that I'm simply in an estranged relationship that will be just that forever. Let's move on. It gives me the opportunity to rededicate my life to the Lord without her as a distraction...

Edited August 5, 2011 by blueadept

[blueadept]

Yeah, especially since he did not have counciling training & I'm guessing he knew both of you.

People go into individual professional counseling all the time, but usually, the (professional) councilor doesn't know the spouse.

We did see an LDS counselor for most of our marriage. She was tired of it and didn't see the point at the end. Oh well. Counseling always fitted my personality type better than hers which is not how it is in most marriages...

[Bernard Gui]

The bottom-line is that 'It doesn't matter anymore' as Susan Elliott would say, but I have the proper LDS understanding that a Bishop would never recommend divorce. As a nonmember, please don't mind if I'm a pessimist on this point though.

I was told by my wife her reason was due to our religious differences which I can't imagine any bishop endorsing. The end result was that she didn't receive any disciplinary action either so I'm sure there were other things discussed between them to try to biblically justify the whole thing. Like I said, it really doesn't matter what was said. I have no case for an annulment so I will always consider her my wife and that I'm simply in an estranged relationship that will be just that forever. Let's move on. It gives me the opportunity to rededicate my life to the Lord without her as a distraction...

I understand and sympathize with your unhappy situation.

May God bless your efforts to rebuild your life.

Bernard