HeatherAnn Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 When we feel the Spirit, it is within us that we feel it... & within us that we connect to God.We're taught to study it out in our minds (intellectually) & then to pray (spiritually) to properly receive & interpret spiritual guidance.Jesus taught primarily through parables. "...without a parable spake he not unto them." - Matt 13:34He taught this way so that each may understand according to their level of understanding & so that those who seek, shall find.It's inspiring to realize that the age of 8 (which Joseph taught was the age of baptism) is when a child learns to think more abstractly, & not just concretely."When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." - 1Cor. 13:11Some, like the pharisees continued to think in more concrete, literal terms. Jesus reprimanded them for that & for neglecting to seek the kingdom of God WITHIN & neglecting to teach others to go within... "ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in... Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup & platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."-Matt 23:13, 26"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them & said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20-21Several scriptures (like those just mentioned) have taken on deeper meaning for me, over time, as I've learned more intellectually & spiritually & have likened scriptures to my life.How have parables or scriptures changed meaning for you over time?
Libs Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20-21This particular scripture has a much deeper meaning, for me, today. It means our spiritual journey is really internal. Our relationship with God is an inward journey to the depths of our soul. That's why prayer and meditation are more important to me, today, than ever before. Then, our internal "work" or relationship building, our connection with God, will manifest in our outward behavior and outlook.
stYro Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 "And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them & said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:20-21How have parables or scriptures changed meaning for you over time?Like Libs, I would have to say that you've hit upon one of the scriptures whose meaning has changed the most for me.For decades, I believed that scripture meant that I was supposed to internalize all of the teachings of the Church, such that they become part of my very nature.My opinion now is that there is an internal connection, relationship, and source of truth that is the highest we can experience in this sphere. Sure my ability to make that connection, be true to that relationship, and correctly sort out that source of truth from my own inner voices is very limited at this time. It's up to me to work on it.Even the phrase "kingdom of God" has changed in meaning for me. Used to be, that meant "the Church on earth, and the Celestial Kingdom hereafter". Now I think of the phrase in context of mineral kingdom, plant kingdom, and animal kingdom. Maybe we could say that we live in the kingdom of Man. So in the next higher kingdom we will probably find a different kind of being, evidently something that we may progress/consciously evolve into, but our attempts at comprehending what constitutes a God (or "Elohim", which is a plural word) probably fall pretty far short at this time. 1
Ahab Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) ... the phrase "kingdom of God" has changed in meaning for me. Used to be, that meant "the Church on earth, and the Celestial Kingdom hereafter". Now I think of the phrase in context of mineral kingdom, plant kingdom, and animal kingdom. Maybe we could say that we live in the kingdom of Man.I like the correlations, but I think what Jesus said would be better understood as him saying we live in the kingdom of God when saying the kingdom of God is within you. Or as if he had said, all of us have the potential to go to either the heights or the depths of any place in God's kingdom, whether it be the Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, or a part of God's kingdom in which we don't have and/or won't receive any additional glory than to be a part of God's kingdom.So in the next higher kingdom we will probably find a different kind of being, evidently something that we may progress/consciously evolve into, but our attempts at comprehending what constitutes a God (or "Elohim", which is a plural word) probably fall pretty far short at this time.We may indeed find different kinds of beings later on as we progress and explore the space everything and everyone lives in, but I think what Jesus meant in context is that we will find different degrees of glory within the kingdom of God as we each seek out and find both who and what God is... including possibily even finding out exactly what it means to be a being of Celestial glory. Edited July 18, 2011 by Ahab
K-2 Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I think a better translation of the latter part of Luke 17:21 would be "the kingdom of God is among you." In other words, it was there already, but they needed to be born again in order to see it. The JST renders it like this: "...the kingdom of God has already come unto you." 4
Libs Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I think it simply means that God is all about the heart. When we listen to our heart (God within, the Spirit, or whatever you want to call it), we are living in the Kingdom.Most of us can't/won't do that, consistently. I know I don't. But, this is the path we are on, and the challenge is to consistently live in the Kingdom (within God's will).
Libs Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 It relates to "walking in the spirit".Galatians 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 This might be controversial for some.When I pray I know I am talking to someone. Some may say I am talking to myself, but guess what?It really doesn't matter.Everything we think or see or do is a parable. "Reality" is a parable. 1
fatherofone Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 This might be controversial for some.When I pray I know I am talking to someone. Some may say I am talking to myself, but guess what?It really doesn't matter.Everything we think or see or do is a parable. "Reality" is a parable.I am not sure I understand.............
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I am not sure I understand.............Maybe this will help, maybe not! The Cognitive Construction of Reality... The American field linguistic Edward Sapir says The fact of the matter is that the ‘real world’ is to a large extent unconsciously built up on the language habits of the group. No two languages are ever sufficiently similar to be considered as representing the same social reality. The worlds in which different societies live are distinct worlds, not merely the same worlds with different labels attached (1929, p. 209)......Here is a recent, very distinguished philosopher, Hilary Putnam: ‘Objects’ do not exist independently of conceptual schemes. We cut up the world into objects when we introduce one or another scheme of description (1981, p. 52). If, as I maintain, ‘objects’ themselves are as much made as discovered, as much products of our conceptual invention as of the ‘objective’ factor in experience, the factor independent of our will, then of course objects intrinsically belong under certain labels because those labels are just the tools we use to construct a version of the world with such objects in the first place [Putnam, 1981, p. 54, italics his].http://plato.stanfor...upplement6.html Edited July 19, 2011 by mfbukowski
HeatherAnn Posted July 19, 2011 Author Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) This particular scripture has a much deeper meaning, for me, today. It means our spiritual journey is really internal. Our relationship with God is an inward journey to the depths of our soul. That's why prayer and meditation are more important to me, today, than ever before. Then, our internal "work" or relationship building, our connection with God, will manifest in our outward behavior and outlook.That's wonderful, Libs!I've been keeping an eye out for other scriptures related to the kingdom of God within... Matt 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach, & to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”At hand = NOW Matt 16:28 “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”He prophesied that some of his disciples would experience the kingdom of God within, during their lifetimes. Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, & the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, & believe the gospel.”Jesus aknowledged an after-death heaven, but focused his teachings on the kingdom of God within,here & now, “at hand.”Matt 6:10 “Thy kingdom come. They will be done in earth, as it is inheaven.”*The only prayer Jesus asked us to say included discovering the kingdom of God within, so we can manifest it in the outer world. Matt 6:33 “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, & his righteousness; & all these things shall be added unto you.” *The realization of the kingdom of heaven within, should be our top priority, as Christians. Matt 16:17 “&Jesus answered & said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh & blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matt 15:17-20 “Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into thebelly, & is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; & they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.”*While I’m learning to respect spirituality in rituals, I also am realizing more that religious rituals are not the end in themselves to salvation, but are only atool or crutch to feeling the spirit/kingdom of God within us. Psalm 46:10 “Be still, & know that I am God.” 1Nephi 17:45“God…hath spoken unto you in a still small voice.” Edited July 19, 2011 by HeatherAnn
HeatherAnn Posted July 19, 2011 Author Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) This might be controversial for some.When I pray I know I am talking to someone. Some may say I am talking to myself, but guess what?It really doesn't matter.Everything we think or see or do is a parable. "Reality" is a parable.I agree!What matters is resonating... connecting within... feeling the spirit.Like Shakespeare said, "That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet."About your other post... I was just reading how Benjamin Whorf theorized that the language we speak determines how we react to the world around us & that language does what science does: dissects & organizes experiences.Language helps make sense of things... yet it also attempts to call things separate when they really aren't.Also, Einstein mentioned how "convenient" it is that reality played by the rules invented by human scientists. lol Edited July 19, 2011 by HeatherAnn
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 I agree!What matters is resonating... connecting within... feeling the spirit.Like Shakespeare said, "That which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet."About your other post... I was just reading how Benjamin Whorf theorized that the language we speak determines how we react to the world around us & that language does what science does: dissects & organizes experiences.Language helps make sense of things... yet it also attempts to call things separate when they really aren't.Also, Einstein mentioned how "convenient" it is that reality played by the rules invented by human scientists. lolAbsolutely!Have you ever seen something scientific that wasn't expressed in language? (Math is also a language- a contextual rule system used for organizing the chaos of what pours into our senses)What was Helen Keller's world like before she had language? We literally cannot imagine without words.And then on the other side we have direct experience- subjective experience: smelling a rose, feeling the spirit, meditating, being in love. This is where everything important in life happens- within.
HeatherAnn Posted July 19, 2011 Author Posted July 19, 2011 Absolutely!Have you ever seen something scientific that wasn't expressed in language? (Math is also a language- a contextual rule system used for organizing the chaos of what pours into our senses)What was Helen Keller's world like before she had language? We literally cannot imagine without words.And then on the other side we have direct experience- subjective experience: smelling a rose, feeling the spirit, meditating, being in love. This is where everything important in life happens- within.What's also fascinating... is that each letter I'm typing is a symbol... and since words are such a huge influence, our lives are full of symbols!I love what you wrote about subjective experiences... where everything important happens within. So true!!What you mentioned about Math reminded me of "Nature by Numbers"...
cdowis Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 I think a better translation of the latter part of Luke 17:21 would be "the kingdom of God is among you." In other words, it was there already, but they needed to be born again in order to see it. The JST renders it like this: "...the kingdom of God has already come unto you."I discovered when reading the Greek NT that it can mean either "within you" or "among you".
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 What's also fascinating... is that each letter I'm typing is a symbol... and since words are such a huge influence, our lives are full of symbols!I love what you wrote about subjective experiences... where everything important happens within. So true!!What you mentioned about Math reminded me of "Nature by Numbers"... great stuff- thanksDid it ever occur to you that we are learning to make "letters" in the temple that can be seen to make up "words"?(symbols which can be put together to make a bigger picture or be seen in a larger context?)
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 I discovered when reading the Greek NT that it can mean either "within you" or "among you"."Life goes on within you and without you"- John Lennon
HeatherAnn Posted July 19, 2011 Author Posted July 19, 2011 great stuff- thanksDid it ever occur to you that we are learning to make "letters" in the temple that can be seen to make up "words"?(symbols which can be put together to make a bigger picture or be seen in a larger context?)I'm glad you liked it.That is something to consider, regarding temple symbolism... Thanks.As beautiful as the temple is, my favorite temple of all temples is the mountains.Every time I go up to that temple, I find so many symbolic spiritual lessons!"Life goes on within you and without you"- John Lennon Yes it does!It reminds me of the dark (invisible) energy & matter that make up 95% of the universe, permeating within & without everything.I wonder how that energy relates to God & to us.
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2011 Posted July 19, 2011 As beautiful as the temple is, my favorite temple of all temples is the mountains.When I teach temple prep, I tell people that they will do the equivalent of this, that is done with small children as they learn to write:"OK now, go up to the blackboard, take the chalk in your hand and make a diagonal line going from the top to the bottom sloping to the left-Good! Now starting at the top of the line, make another sloping line from where you started the first, diagonally to the right.Good! Now connect the two lines, about half way up.Good! You have now made the letter "A", the first letter of a new alphabet you are here to learn".We need to see those gestures as having symbolic content like letters, and see why they are combined the way they are, and how they correlate with what is being taught.Notice my siggy quote from Calmoriah.
HeatherAnn Posted July 20, 2011 Author Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) When I teach temple prep, I tell people that they will do the equivalent of this, that is done with small children as they learn to write:"OK now, go up to the blackboard, take the chalk in your hand and make a diagonal line going from the top to the bottom sloping to the left-Good! Now starting at the top of the line, make another sloping line from where you started the first, diagonally to the right.Good! Now connect the two lines, about half way up.Good! You have now made the letter "A", the first letter of a new alphabet you are here to learn".We need to see those gestures as having symbolic content like letters, and see why they are combined the way they are, and how they correlate with what is being taught.Notice my siggy quote from Calmoriah.It sounds like you have a good way of teaching.I hope temple prep is getting better at prep. lolI took temple prep & was still as clueless as ever when I went through the temple for the first time.I've often asked people (esp. temple workers) in the Celestial room questions... & they just say it's different for everyone - something you must discover for yourself.I guess that's the deal with symbols... so this type of school (in the temple) is more "fend for yourself."Honestly, I've had some bad experienced in the temple - even got slapped by a temple worker (because my timing was off).I no longer associate it with a place of peace & love... more of stress. That's why I like the mountains better.And actually, anywhere can be "holy ground" that we feel God's spirit.Yet, I respect you & others who find peace & inspiration in temple ordinances & I did have one beautiful experience in the temple (at my sister's wedding).I do think there are some important things to teach in temple prep...Like when Jesus taught about humbly serving others, he wore a cloth around his waist.And when Moses was in the presence of God, he was commanded to remove his shoes since he stood on holy ground.And especially, as you mentioned... the importance of symbols... yet to teach that symbols are tools to resonating to God within, not the end in themselves.I didn't find a post by Calmoriah to find the sig. What does it say? Edited July 20, 2011 by HeatherAnn
mfbukowski Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 I didn't find a post by Calmoriah to find the sig. What does it say?The signature is mine- not Calmoriah's !See the bottom of this post- the fine print at the very bottom!Hey- we all get to feel silly sometimes!!!
volgadon Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Unfortunately, the plural pronoun "you" scuppers all this speculation about "within you" meaning an internal spiritual journey. It means that the kingdom of God is found in the community of the new covenant people. Edited July 20, 2011 by volgadon
WalkerW Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Unfortunately, the plural pronoun "you" scuppers all this speculation about "within you" meaning an internal spiritual journey. It means that the kingdom of God is found in the community of the new covenant people.Well, that settles that.
Libs Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Not. What about the indwelling Spirit, Volgadon?Could mean both, really...?
HeatherAnn Posted July 20, 2011 Author Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Not. What about the indwelling Spirit, Volgadon?Could mean both, really...?Exactly, Libs.The kingdom of God is the energy of Love (since the scriptures say God is love).If we are all children of God, we are all made of this energy.I find it interesting that 95% of the universe (dark energy/matter - which permeates-within & without- everything) is invisible & not understood except for the evidence of it's influence.Doesn't that remind you of the definition of faith... "as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"?So, Volgadon,The kingdom of God is not only within us, but within ALL!!And IMO, the kingdom of God on earth means when all honor the kingdom of God within... by faithfully loving others as ourselves.Still, when you feel the spirit, is it felt through your neighbor or brother or sister?Of course not! It's felt within you!! Edited July 20, 2011 by HeatherAnn
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