Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 20, 2011 Posted July 20, 2011 Not. What about the indwelling Spirit, Volgadon?Could mean both, really...?Since when did the indwelling Spirit = Kingdom of God? Do you have a reference for that?
volgadon Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Exactly, Libs.The kingdom of God is the energy of Love (since the scriptures say God is love).If we are all children of God, we are all made of this energy.I find it interesting that 95% of the universe (dark energy/matter - which permeates-within & without- everything) is invisible & not understood except for the evidence of it's influence.Doesn't that remind you of the definition of faith... "as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"?So, Volgadon,The kingdom of God is not only within us, but within ALL!!And IMO, the kingdom of God on earth means when all honor the kingdom of God within... by faithfully loving others as ourselves.Still, when you feel the spirit, is it felt through your neighbor or brother or sister?Of course not! It's felt within you!!I must make a small correction, as I was going by memory. Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees. Is he really saying that the kingdom of God is in their hearts?Boring and Craddock's "The People's New Testament Commentary" makes the following pertinent observations.(1) "Within you" (KJV,ASV) suggests that the kingdom is an internal, spiritual reality "in the believer's heart," a personal, indivualistic interpretation of the kingdom of God popular in American liberalism, but difficult to find in the Bible. There are no biblical texts that locate God's kingdom "in the heart" (see on 4:43). Jesus is here addressing the Pharisees, in this context it is unlikely that he would say to them that the kingdom is in their hearts. That the "you" is plural also argues against the individualistic interpretation.(2) Thus the second interpretation "among you" (NRSV; REB) or "in the midst of you" (RSV) is better. It corresponds to Luke's own view that the kingdom was present in this world during the one-year ministry of Jesus (see introduction to Luke: "Jesus as the 'Midst of Time,'" and comments on 4:20-21;11:20). The kingdom of God is present in Jesus' ministry, but the Pharisees do not see it. The kingdom was not the kind of thing that objective observers could validate but a matter of having the believers' "eyes of faith."http://books.google.com/books?id=N0tLXRIiIe0C&pg=PA248&dq=luke+commentary+17+kingdom+of+God&hl=ru&ei=-20nTvbLEbHViAK9p_2WCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=luke%20commentary%2017%20kingdom%20of%20God&f=false
Next Year Here Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Since when did the indwelling Spirit = Kingdom of God? Do you have a reference for that? Deuteronomy 30:6 6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.Acts 1:3-5 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passions by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: <a name="4"> 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.This is what Christ meant by seeking the kingdom of God. Anglo/Saxon cultures think it must be joining a congregation.Your Book of Mormon even speaks to it in 3 Nephi 11 where Jesus says that anything more or less than getting it precisely right in your heart comes of evil. You must defeat all pride and become meek and lowly as a broken hearted little child or God will not open to you. If you do not address this effort as Christ commanded in the Sermon on the Mount and take no thought for you life while you seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness you cannot please God and will fail.The gentiles cannot grasp this. Never have. They alway seek the worldly way which is filled with corruptions.Where two of more gather in his name, meaning, that his name has been put upon them in their inward parts, by the power of the Holy Ghost, there is the kingdom of God, where Christ will be with them.
HeatherAnn Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Deuteronomy 30:6 6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.Acts 1:3-5 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passions by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: <a name="4"> 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.This is what Christ meant by seeking the kingdom of God. Anglo/Saxon cultures think it must be joining a congregation.Your Book of Mormon even speaks to it in 3 Nephi 11 where Jesus says that anything more or less than getting it precisely right in your heart comes of evil. You must defeat all pride and become meek and lowly as a broken hearted little child or God will not open to you. If you do not address this effort as Christ commanded in the Sermon on the Mount and take no thought for you life while you seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness you cannot please God and will fail.The gentiles cannot grasp this. Never have. They alway seek the worldly way which is filled with corruptions.Where two of more gather in his name, meaning, that his name has been put upon them in their inward parts, by the power of the Holy Ghost, there is the kingdom of God, where Christ will be with them.Thanks for sharing this. I especially like what you mentioned about defeating pride - something I need to work on.When I think of "The kingdom of God within" - it reminds me of searching our souls - not in a condemning way, but in a loving way to correct what needs to be corrected & move on.God is love... the higher love/best. I think it's common to look for love in all the wrong places.Yet, it's like that song or parable about building one's house on sand or rock... Building on sand is building one's inner sense of well-being on "worldly" external forces that change beyond one's control... & when storms come, the house (or one's sense of well-being) is shattered. Building on rock is building one's inner sense of well-being on internal forces, which are more in one's control.. & when storms come, the house (or one's sense of well-being) stands strong.What's beautiful is whether you take a physiological, psychological or spiritual perspective - all agree that our feelings come from thoughts - all generated within. Edited July 21, 2011 by HeatherAnn
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Unfortunately, the plural pronoun "you" scuppers all this speculation about "within you" meaning an internal spiritual journey. It means that the kingdom of God is found in the community of the new covenant people.Ah yes, but of course implies the possibility of linguistic constructivism.But does that imply that Kabbalah study is for non-Hebrew speakers? Does God really only speak Hebrew?
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Exactly, Libs.The kingdom of God is the energy of Love (since the scriptures say God is love).If we are all children of God, we are all made of this energy.I find it interesting that 95% of the universe (dark energy/matter - which permeates-within & without- everything) is invisible & not understood except for the evidence of it's influence.Doesn't that remind you of the definition of faith... "as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"?So, Volgadon,The kingdom of God is not only within us, but within ALL!!And IMO, the kingdom of God on earth means when all honor the kingdom of God within... by faithfully loving others as ourselves.Still, when you feel the spirit, is it felt through your neighbor or brother or sister?Of course not! It's felt within you!!Social trinitarianism including all of us.Perichoresis
Libs Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) After reading all of Luke 17 and some commentary, it appears to me that "the Kingdom of God" is in reference to Jesus Christ, himself. He was "among them", when Christ was on earth, but now his spirit indwells us, so the Kingdom of God is, literally, within us, now. Edited July 21, 2011 by Libs
volgadon Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Ah yes, but of course implies the possibility of linguistic constructivism.But does that imply that Kabbalah study is for non-Hebrew speakers? Does God really only speak Hebrew? I don't tend to place the lay 21st century American understanding of a 17th century translation above the Greek text when it comes to interpretation of meaning, if that is what you are asking.
HeatherAnn Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 Social trinitarianism including all of us.PerichoresisSpeak for yourself, dear Mfbukowski.I don't see God as the trinity.I did not get my beliefs from any organized religion, besides Mormonism as a springboard.It's common sense. Do you feel the spirit in a brick, a plant, or anything outside of you?Of course not! You feel the spirit within you. You connect to the realm or kingdom of God WITHIN.
WalkerW Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Speak for yourself, dear Mfbukowski.I don't see God as the trinity.I did not get my beliefs from any organized religion, besides Mormonism as a springboard.It's common sense. Do you feel the spirit in a brick, a plant, or anything outside of you?Of course not! You feel the spirit within you. You connect to the realm or kingdom of God WITHIN.Social trinitarianism is not the same as the Trinity. They are two slightly different concepts.There isn't much to argue when it comes to the text. "Among you" or "in the midst of you" is a better translation. It isn't some mystic spiritualism going on in the text (though that is perfectly acceptable in private).
HeatherAnn Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Obviously, what we think affects how we feel emotionally & spiritually, enhancing the meaning of "The kingdom of God is within you."In Psychology Erikson described stages of development. Similarly, Jim Marion described stages of spiritual development in "Putting on the Mind of Christ."He explained how all growth in consciousness is a death to the old way of looking at the world & a simultaneous rebirth into new perspective (thus being born again & again).I'll summarize what I've gathered (admitting I have more to learn)...1. Archaic Consciousness of Infants...A child needs to learn emotional boundaries otherwise co-dependency or narcissim.2. The Magical Consciousness of Children...At this stage a person is unable to distinguish between the contents of its mind & those of the external world.3. Mythic Consciousness-Pre-Adolescence...A time of conformity... Mom & Dad represent God & can do no wrong. Adults at this stage see their religious rules & beliefs as the only way & want to convert the whole world. (Religious wars are based on this mental level.)4. Rational Consciousness...Starting to analyze & even criticize conventional rules of society, including religion.They begin to find rationality within - through both intellect & faith & less on external rote.5. Vision-Logic Consciousness (Highest of the mental levels)...Ability to think abstractly & from many different perspectives.It can be a difficult time trying to find meaning.6. Psychic Consciousness... (Healing, laying on of hands)Being in tune with the "still small voice within" (Pray always) & also being in tune with others' energy (as Jesus was).Power can be used for good or bad.7. The Dark Night of the Soul & SensesInfusion of energies from the higher self - time of pain & healing.All feelings buried, resurface to be dealt with so we are more pure & compassionate & less judgemental since we realize we all have "issues."8. Christ ConsciousnessTrue compassion & free from neurotic projections & emotional addictions, so with a purer heart, we love better.9. Nondual Consciousness - Kingdom of HeavenAll humans realize nondual & truly loving consciousness, creating heaven on earth. Edited July 21, 2011 by HeatherAnn 1
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Speak for yourself, dear Mfbukowski.I don't see God as the trinity.I did not get my beliefs from any organized religion, besides Mormonism as a springboard.It's common sense. Do you feel the spirit in a brick, a plant, or anything outside of you?Of course not! You feel the spirit within you. You connect to the realm or kingdom of God WITHIN.Well that previous post was rather cryptic- I had to go pick up my daughter and only had time for a few words.Simply put, Social Trinitarianism is the view that the Godhead is a "family". Putting an LDS spin on it, we can all be seen as part of their family.Perichoresis is the idea that the Godhead interpenetrates each other in unity, again, much in the same way members of a family influence and think as one.Putting it all together, we can be unified with the Godhead in the same way that they are unified in each other, (John 17) all in one human family, unified in the purpose of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of humankind.9. Nondual Consciousness - Kingdom of HeavenAll humans realize nondual & truly loving consciousness, creating heaven on earth.Yeah, that's what I meant.
WalkerW Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Obviously, what we think affects how we feel emotionally & spiritually, enhancing the meaning of "The kingdom of God is within you."In Psychology Erikson described stages of development. Similarly, Jim Marion described stages of spiritual development in "Putting on the Mind of Christ."He explained how all growth in consciousness is a death to the old way of looking at the world & a simultaneous rebirth into new perspective (thus being born again & again).I'll summarize what I've gathered (admitting I have more to learn)...1. Archaic Consciousness of Infants...A child needs to learn emotional boundaries otherwise co-dependency or narcissim.2. The Magical Consciousness of Children...At this stage a person is unable to distinguish between the contents of its mind & those of the external world.3. Mythic Consciousness-Pre-Adolescence...A time of conformity... Mom & Dad represent God & can do no wrong. Adults at this stage see their religious rules & beliefs as the only way & want to convert the whole world. (Religious wars are based on this mental level.)4. Rational Consciousness...Starting to analyze & even criticize conventional rules of society, including religion.They begin to find rationality within - through both intellect & faith & less on external rote.5. Vision-Logic Consciousness (Highest of the mental levels)...Ability to think abstractly & from many different perspectives.It can be a difficult time trying to find meaning.6. Psychic Consciousness... (Healing, laying on of hands)Being in tune with the "still small voice within" (Pray always) & also being in tune with others' energy (as Jesus was).Power can be used for good or bad.7. The Dark Night of the Soul & SensesInfusion of energies from the higher self - time of pain & healing.All feelings buried, resurface to be dealt with so we are more pure & compassionate & less judgemental since we realize we all have "issues."8. Christ ConsciousnessTrue compassion & free from neurotic projections & emotional addictions, so with a purer heart, we love better.9. Nondual Consciousness - Kingdom of HeavenAll humans realize nondual & truly loving consciousness, creating heaven on earth.That's all fine and dandy and I have no objection to the psychological phenomena that is spiritual experience. However, I was referring to the text. The plural "you" is a reference to the covenant community. It isn't mystical or spiritualized.
HeatherAnn Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 That's all fine and dandy and I have no objection to the psychological phenomena that is spiritual experience. However, I was referring to the text. The plural "you" is a reference to the covenant community. It isn't mystical or spiritualized.Walker,Is anything in this big wide beautiful world NOT mystical or spiritual???At least according to Joseph Smith (not to mention common sense) - everything in this world & especially in scripture is mystical & spiritual.
HeatherAnn Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 Well that previous post was rather cryptic- I had to go pick up my daughter and only had time for a few words.Simply put, Social Trinitarianism is the view that the Godhead is a "family". Putting an LDS spin on it, we can all be seen as part of their family.Perichoresis is the idea that the Godhead interpenetrates each other in unity, again, much in the same way members of a family influence and think as one.Putting it all together, we can be unified with the Godhead in the same way that they are unified in each other, (John 17) all in one human family, unified in the purpose of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of humankind.Yeah, that's what I meant. Well, that clarifies things, thanks. Every now & then we seem to connect & it's cool!I hadn't thought so deeply about Social Trinitarianism nor Perichoresis, yet how you explained it makes more sense, according to my current understanding.Not that I am even close to understanding how God & spiritual energies work, yet I'm learning.I do believe, as you implied, that we are all interconnected... so much we don't realize & may not until we have more spiritual eyes after physical death.I don't know if anyone could logically ever understand how that connection works, but it does! Like serendipity - can't be scientifically studied because it can't be found by logically seeking it.You mention, thinking as one... which reminds me of the scripture relating the body of Christ with a body... how the foot doesn't say it doesn't need the hand (etc.) - but all work together in harmony. (Like the kingdom of God, or even heaven on earth, among us)And each needs to do it's own job - to be healthy & functional... that's where the kingdom of God within, comes in. ha
mfbukowski Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Well, that clarifies things, thanks. Every now & then we seem to connect & it's cool!I hadn't thought so deeply about Social Trinitarianism nor Perichoresis, yet how you explained it makes more sense, according to my current understanding.Not that I am even close to understanding how God & spiritual energies work, yet I'm learning.I do believe, as you implied, that we are all interconnected... so much we don't realize & may not until we have more spiritual eyes after physical death.I don't know if anyone could logically ever understand how that connection works, but it does! Like serendipity - can't be scientifically studied because it can't be found by logically seeking it.You mention, thinking as one... which reminds me of the scripture relating the body of Christ with a body... how the foot doesn't say it doesn't need the hand (etc.) - but all work together in harmony. (Like the kingdom of God, or even heaven on earth, among us)And each needs to do it's own job - to be healthy & functional... that's where the kingdom of God within, comes in. haYep! We are definitely on the same wavelength here!
WalkerW Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 Walker,Is anything in this big wide beautiful world NOT mystical or spiritual???At least according to Joseph Smith (not to mention common sense) - everything in this world & especially in scripture is mystical & spiritual.That's because Latter-day Saints are monists. The "temporal" and the "spiritual" are one and the same. So, yes, a covenant community would certainly be spiritual, but that isn't exactly how you were approaching it. Now you are getting away from the text and just spiritualizing everything, which defeats the purpose of actual exegesis. You can do that with any phrase in any text if you want. This may be good for devotionals and nice "spiritual thoughts," but not for scriptural analysis. The best translation is "among you" or "in the midst of you."
volgadon Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 That's because Latter-day Saints are monists. The "temporal" and the "spiritual" are one and the same. So, yes, a covenant community would certainly be spiritual, but that isn't exactly how you were approaching it. Now you are getting away from the text and just spiritualizing everything, which defeats the purpose of actual exegesis. You can do that with any phrase in any text if you want. This may be good for devotionals and nice "spiritual thoughts," but not for scriptural analysis. The best translation is "among you" or "in the midst of you."Except that we don't imbue things with as deep a mystic, spiritual meaning as kabbalists do. For example, I don't know of any LDS who, like the Rav Kook, refuse to eat onions because they are all kelipot (lit. shells, but also used in the sense of peels, or layers of an onion). Kelipot in Kabbalah are the unclean forces of the other side, IE, evil.
HeatherAnn Posted July 25, 2011 Author Posted July 25, 2011 That's because Latter-day Saints are monists. The "temporal" and the "spiritual" are one and the same. So, yes, a covenant community would certainly be spiritual, but that isn't exactly how you were approaching it. Now you are getting away from the text and just spiritualizing everything, which defeats the purpose of actual exegesis. You can do that with any phrase in any text if you want. This may be good for devotionals and nice "spiritual thoughts," but not for scriptural analysis. The best translation is "among you" or "in the midst of you."Speak for yourself.
HeatherAnn Posted July 25, 2011 Author Posted July 25, 2011 Except that we don't imbue things with as deep a mystic, spiritual meaning as kabbalists do. For example, I don't know of any LDS who, like the Rav Kook, refuse to eat onions because they are all kelipot (lit. shells, but also used in the sense of peels, or layers of an onion). Kelipot in Kabbalah are the unclean forces of the other side, IE, evil. Good, point. I don't know a lot about kabbalists, yet it makes sense to harmonize: 1."studying it out in good books & in our minds".... and 2. with faith, hope & love - acting with spiritual guidance.
mfbukowski Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) Except that we don't imbue things with as deep a mystic, spiritual meaning as kabbalists do. For example, I don't know of any LDS who, like the Rav Kook, refuse to eat onions because they are all kelipot (lit. shells, but also used in the sense of peels, or layers of an onion). Kelipot in Kabbalah are the unclean forces of the other side, IE, evil.Nah, we just worry about Diet Pepsi being against the word of wisdom, but ice tea definitely is.Camomile tea is not, green tea is.I'm just messin' with you! You know I love you dude! Edited July 25, 2011 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 Except that we don't imbue things with as deep a mystic, spiritual meaning as kabbalists do. For example, I don't know of any LDS who, like the Rav Kook, refuse to eat onions because they are all kelipot (lit. shells, but also used in the sense of peels, or layers of an onion). Kelipot in Kabbalah are the unclean forces of the other side, IE, evil.Give us a few thousand years to develop a context - who knows??
volgadon Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 Nah, we just worry about Diet Pepsi being against the word of wisdom, but ice tea definitely is.Camomile tea is not, green tea is.There was this guy on an LDS facebook page who was condemning members for using herbal teas because they contain the word "tea." He never found an adequate response as to why soup is ok.I'm just messin' with you! You know I love you dude!You too!
volgadon Posted July 26, 2011 Posted July 26, 2011 Good, point. I don't know a lot about kabbalists, yet it makes sense to harmonize: 1."studying it out in good books & in our minds".... and 2. with faith, hope & love - acting with spiritual guidance.My point is that we aren't that mystically minded as you seemed to suggest.
Recommended Posts