Article On Reincarnation And Mormonism

[ERayR]

Thanks for posting this, because I think now we can home in on the central problem that most Mormons (and most Christians) have with the concept of reincarnation.

Reincarnation does not require that each individual atone for their own sins. Let me explain with a hypothetical situation.

Suppose my life is a mess, things keep going wrong, I make mistakes, and the way I choose to deal with the pressure and stress and guilt is to numb my feelings. Jim Beam and Johnny Walker are my best friends. One night on my way home from the watering hole, I lose control of my vehicle and cross into oncoming traffic, striking a car driven by a young man and killing him.

This young man was on his way home from a date with the girl who is his soul mate. They would have gotten married in the Temple. Now that cannot happen, so the girl is going to marry someone else. In the Temple. Her marriage to this other guy will be okay, not bad enough for a divorce but nothing like it would have been with her soulmate. But because that's who she's now sealed to, that's who she's going to be with for eternity.

I am genuinely sorry for what I did and sincerely do my best to repent. Because of my years of drinking my liver is shot, and three months later I die without having truly demonstrated that I've overcome my addictive and destructive tendencies.

Now, how could I possible atone for taking that young man's life? Will something bad happening to me in future life somehow "make it right"? Of course not. I cannot pay that debt, not in a thousand lifetimes; my only hope is the Atonement.

But there are lessons that I can learn in a future mortal lifetime, important ones that I need if I'm going to make it. First, I can learn not to numb my pain and try to escape, but rather face with my problems responsibly. I can overcome that weakness. Next I can learn how to live my life so that I'm not creating stressful situations needlessly through my own laziness or incompetence or poor choices. I can overcome those weaknesses. And finally, I can learn to help people whose lives are on a destructive course. Thus I can actually become a net benefit to Christ's plan. The fact that I can't consciously remember the things I need to work on doesn't matter; my soul remembers them, and they will show up in my life.

For the young man and his soulmate, a future mortal lifetime would give them a chance to get together and be sealed in the Temple, with the sealing ratified by the Holy Spirit of Promise, so that in the long run they really haven't lost each other.

So we see here that the Atonement is still the only way that some debts can be paid, but multiple mortal lives gives us the chance to learn needed lessons, overcome things we need to overcome, and set our own destinies in order.

stYro

1st how can you learn anything when you come back without any memory of who you are or what you have been? Nothing but the same old mistakes over and over.

What happens to the first temple marriage of the woman involved? Your hypothetical soon becomes a can of worms and God's house is a house of order. Multiple marriages and sealings for eternity? Reincarnation is a counterfiet, but if you want to tradethe beauty of Christs atonement and eternal life for it be my guest.

Edited July 14, 2011 by ERayR

[stYro]

1st how can you learn anything when you come back without any memory of who you are or what you have been? Nothing but the same old mistakes over and over.

What happens to the first temple marriage of the woman involved? Your hypothetical soon becomes a can of worms and God's house is a house of order. Multiple marriages and sealings for eternity? Reincarnation is a counterfiet, but if you want to tradethe beauty of Christs atonement and eternal life for it be my guest.

If there is no internal character development, then you might well make the same old mistakes over and over. I believe your soul will indeed put you in the same situation you failed at before in order to give you another chance to get it right. Kinda like taking the driver's license test though: Once you've passed and received your license, it doesn't matter whether you got it on your first try or your twentieth.

What happens to the first temple marriage of that woman? I don't really know... probably the same thing that happens to Joseph Smith and anyone else this scripture applies to:

"...I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children..." D&C 132:55

What I'm saying is, the "can of worms" of multiple sealings to multiple spouses is already part of Mormonism.

You may disagree with the idea of reincarnation, and that's fine. I'm not asking you to accept it, just to see it as a possibility. So, let me ask you three questions:

a) If the Atonement can pay the debt for misdeeds in one lifetime, do you think that the ("infinite" and "eternal") Atonement cannot pay the debt for misdeeds in more than one lifetime?

b) If God really wants us to become like him, and a fundamental purpose of mortality is experiential learning and growth, how is one lifetime going to do a better job of that than multiple lifetimes?

c) Given that reincarnation is, by definition, a form of eternal progression (albeit a slower one than what you're used to thinking), how is it incompatible with the concept of "eternal life"?

Thanks,

stYro

Edited July 14, 2011 by stYro

[blackstrap]

If I recall,in Hindu thought ,one continues to be reincarnated until one becomes sufficiently enlightened to enter Nirvana and join with the oneness of the universe.I probably have it all wrong but that does not drastically differ from the concept of line upon line until we are "one" with God.

That said,I think such "recycling" would only make sense until one is introduced to the Gospel of Christ.Before that,I could see it as a possibility to be chosen freely.Agency still trumps.

[Loran Blood]

Is it possible that there are truths which are not currently a part of LDS doctrine?

LDS doctrine both implies and accepts such. However, as reincarnation is logically and conceptually negated by existing doctrine, its difficult to see how any further doctrinal knowledge would alter this situation. Reincarnation is removed from consideration at the outset by core gospel doctrine - one of many removed from consideration by the Restoration itself.

Consider the possibility that mortality is a lot like school: The main purpose is learning. The purpose isn't to get an honorary degree that is not backed by genuine competence. Jesus told us what manner of men we are to become (just like him), and we simply cannot do that in one mortal lifetime.

This is inconsistent with settled doctrine, within which a single lifetime is, in point of fact, not only sufficient, but necessary as an incentive.

So I would argue that reincarnation is acutally more consistent with the concept of eternal progression than is "one-shot-and-that's-it".

Leaving aside, for a moment, the significant problems this poses for LDS theology as to the persistence of core identity, the doctrine of resurrection, and the central purpose of the mortal probation (of which the scriptures are united in positing is a unique "second estate" bordering a first and third), mortality is nowhere in the scriptures or revelations seen as something that anyone in their right mind would accept a repetition of. It is a "veil of tears" and a world shrouded in darkness. Satan stands over it with a "great chain in his hand," while he is allowed to be the "god of this world" until Christ returns to reign rightfully as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There is distinct time-frame and window of opportunity inherent in the entire plan of salvation and clearly expressed in the scriptures and in modern revelation. The purpose of the plan of salvation, as uniquely calibrated for each individual, is to get through it successfully and to take from it what is necessary to the eternal progression of that individual, at which point that individual is prepared to move on. Or, unprepared, as the case may be, in which case numerous provisions have been made, but grounded in clear consequences for failure to learn and apply those lessons in the time allotted. The single, unique second estate is an incentive not to "procrastinate the day of repentance," which also means that reincarnation actually nullifies the concept of repentance and the consequences of avoiding it by "kicking it down the road," so to speak, indefinitely. The Book of Mormon warns the gentiles (and everyone) of the Latter Days that some religions would assume an attitude in which all would eventually be saved after being "beaten with a few stripes." Reincarnation, with its concept of an indefinitely repetitious mortal probation in which Karma follows one through each successive life until all past misdeeds are made right and the cycle of rebirth is broken, simply denies outright most of the core doctrines surrounding the plan of salvation and the soteriology of the NT and BofM.

Regarding the "plan of happiness", yeah it's a bummer to think that we don't get to enjoy our exaltation after a single mortal lifetime. But by coming back we can do work towards undoing our screw-ups, which is something we would naturally want to do if we embrace the principle of responsibility.

No...the stakes are high here, and they are intended to be, as in no other way are the incentives, based in a distinct and absolute boundary and time limit to our probationary state, strong enough to provoke the kinds of growth and changes (becoming "born again" and purging ourselves of the "natural man" through the Atonement of Christ) necessary to our exaltation. In a reincarnational setting, there is no reason to think that the stakes and incentives would be any higher or any more motivational in one life than in another, and, given the core features of personality that the gospel asserts become inherent aspects of our being through our own choices and predilections (...for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world (Alma 34:34).), any more likely. In other words, given who and what we really are at the center of our being, Hugh Hefner in this life would, in all probability, recreate Hugh Hefner in the next, and the next and the next and the next. The alternatives were here in this life when he first, as a spirit child of God, encountered connection with mortal element, and indeed, in the culture he grew up in, here in profusion, and he selected his path from a plethora of other potential paths. Why? Because of core features of personality that will follow him as he leaves this life and returns to the spirit world, and would, if reincarnation were true, follow him as core aspects of his being into a future mortal return to earth.

There is little point, then, to reincarnation, save to kick the can down the road and by doing so, allow us the luxury of procrastinating the day of our repentance forever, if taken to its logical conclusion.

If you believed you would return to this earth in a future life, what would you want to be different about that future earth, relative to what we have now? How could you work towards making that happen, so that you do come back to a better world? Put yourself in those shoes even if only for a moment, and you'll see that the concept of reincarnation can be a powerful motivator for good.

This is all well and good, but obviated at the outset by the settled doctrines of the gospel. Once having received a testimony of those doctrines, apostate alternatives become an interesting comparison and contrast, but not a going concern.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Loran Blood

[Loran Blood]

b) If God really wants us to become like him, and a fundamental purpose of mortality is experiential learning and growth, how is one lifetime going to do a better job of that than multiple lifetimes?

You assume that these multiple lifetimes are somehow necessary, but have not adduced an argument showing exactly why this should be the case. One thing should be clear, and that is that the mortal probation is calibrated to each unique individual as to his/her own needs and most pressing requirements as to his eternal progression. For many, it is clear that only a few years, months, days, weeks, hours, or minutes are necessary to the furtherance of that progression. For many others, many decades are allotted. We do not all need the same experiences, nor the same amount of time to experience, to fulfill our primary purpose in mortality. The ultimate purpose of such lies with God, and will be hidden from us behind the veil of forgetfulness until we return from whence we came to receive our memory of our preexistent state and a full panoramic understanding of our particular purpose in coming to mortality.

Given that reincarnation is, by definition, a form of eternal progression (albeit a slower one than what you're used to thinking), how is it incompatible with the concept of "eternal life"?

There is no necessary progression in reincarnation. One may be trapped within the cycle of death and rebirth for eons, and indeed forever, if one fails to learn the lessons needed. Further, if one assumes that eventual progress does, indeed, come to all eventually, this utterly overturns other core concepts of the gospel relating to ultimate judgment, the degrees of glory based in the law of the harvest and law of restoration, and the consequences in this life of procrastinating repentance and/or fleeing from the gospel and avoiding it altogether (or whatever gospel truth is available within one's culture and time).

Edited July 14, 2011 by Loran Blood

[shalamabobbi]

Not really; I don't claim to know the inner details.

But if I'm understanding you correctly, your objection is that reincarnation implies we could end up having an hundredfold fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children??

stYro

Assuming the doctrine of the church to be true that we are sealed to one set of parents, which of all my sets of parents will I be sealed to? Will I not love them all? You really don't see a problem here?

And will I be resurrected with all my bodies? Will I become a legion? I would think such considerations would give you some reason to reflect whether such a doctrine might be a little bit in conflict with the well established doctrines of the church which you claim to accept..

[mfbukowski]

There is little point, then, to reincarnation, save to kick the can down the road and by doing so, allow us the luxury of procrastinating the day of our repentance forever, if taken to its logical conclusion.

An excellent point!

[mfbukowski]

There is no necessary progression in reincarnation. One may be trapped within the cycle of death and rebirth for eons, and indeed forever, if one fails to learn the lessons needed.

Not to mention the possibility of regression.

[Loran Blood]

Not to mention the possibility of regression.

Indeed. Tibetan Buddhism posits the possibility of returning to earth, after a life of particularly base behavior, as an animal perhaps in some sense representing the moral qualities of that life.

[stYro]

Loran Blood, thank you for taking the time to write those two long, in-depth replies. And thank you too, blackstrap, mfbukowski, and shalamabobbi. I apologize for simply not having the time to focus and write a decent reply (well... decent to me at least!); I'm self-employed, and sometimes that means pulling double shifts for several days in a row. Will write back soon as I can.

stYro

[stYro]

There is distinct time-frame and window of opportunity inherent in the entire plan of salvation and clearly expressed in the scriptures and in modern revelation. The purpose of the plan of salvation, as uniquely calibrated for each individual, is to get through it successfully and to take from it what is necessary to the eternal progression of that individual, at which point that individual is prepared to move on. Or, unprepared, as the case may be, in which case numerous provisions have been made, but grounded in clear consequences for failure to learn and apply those lessons in the time allotted. The single, unique second estate is an incentive not to "procrastinate the day of repentance," which also means that reincarnation actually nullifies the concept of repentance and the consequences of avoiding it by "kicking it down the road," so to speak, indefinitely. The Book of Mormon warns the gentiles (and everyone) of the Latter Days that some religions would assume an attitude in which all would eventually be saved after being "beaten with a few stripes." Reincarnation, with its concept of an indefinitely repetitious mortal probation in which Karma follows one through each successive life until all past misdeeds are made right and the cycle of rebirth is broken, simply denies outright most of the core doctrines surrounding the plan of salvation and the soteriology of the NT and BofM.

No...the stakes are high here, and they are intended to be, as in no other way are the incentives, based in a distinct and absolute boundary and time limit to our probationary state, strong enough to provoke the kinds of growth and changes (becoming "born again" and purging ourselves of the "natural man" through the Atonement of Christ) necessary to our exaltation. In a reincarnational setting, there is no reason to think that the stakes and incentives would be any higher or any more motivational in one life than in another, and, given the core features of personality that the gospel asserts become inherent aspects of our being through our own choices and predilections (...for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world (Alma 34:34).), any more likely. In other words, given who and what we really are at the center of our being, Hugh Hefner in this life would, in all probability, recreate Hugh Hefner in the next, and the next and the next and the next. The alternatives were here in this life when he first, as a spirit child of God, encountered connection with mortal element, and indeed, in the culture he grew up in, here in profusion, and he selected his path from a plethora of other potential paths. Why? Because of core features of personality that will follow him as he leaves this life and returns to the spirit world, and would, if reincarnation were true, follow him as core aspects of his being into a future mortal return to earth.

Sometimes nearly all of the scriptures seem to be saying one thing, but there is a higher truth that only rarely makes its appearance. For example, we have numerous scriptures that speak of eternal punishment or endless torment or some such permament state of misery for those who are disobedient, but then on the other hand we have D&C 19: 4-17, wherein it is suggested that the term "endless punishment" simply means "God's punishment" because Endless is his name, and furthermore, the passage tells us that such frightening language was for used specifically for its effect. Sometimes God speaks to the bone-heads in a language they are likely to understand when they are deaf to his gentleness. This passage goes on to state that this higher truth was known to the Apostles of old. It contradicts nearly all of scripture, yet it's still true.

Likewise the LDS church believes in "eternal marriage", which seems to be in direct conflict with centuries of Christian tradition based on Jesus' teaching that "in the heavens they are neither married nor given in marriage". Yes I understand the LDS explanation for this statement by Jesus and do not dispute it; my point it is, except for a few verses in Section 132 of the D&C, there would be no scriptural basis for any other conclusion, even if your heart told you otherwise.

And we have the parable of the prodigal son, which to me suggests that our Father does not give up on us nearly as quickly as the frightening language used in Alma would have us believe. I understand there is an assumption that one life is sufficient to provide whatever opportunities a person needs, but we really don't know that to be true. You really don't know that Hugh Hefner hasn't learned anything and would never change. Maybe the story of the prodigal son applies as much to him as to anyone else. Have you made mistakes in this life and learned from them? I sure have. Would I make more mistakes in, and learn more lessons from, another mortal lifetime? You betcha. That's how most progress is made in this world: By trial and error. Sometimes we get something right on the first try, but almost always we have to make corrections based on what works and what doesn't.

I agree with your statement that the stakes are high, but for a different reason: I believe that the responsibility for eternal progression is upon each of us individually.

You assume that these multiple lifetimes are somehow necessary, but have not adduced an argument showing exactly why this should be the case. One thing should be clear, and that is that the mortal probation is calibrated to each unique individual as to his/her own needs and most pressing requirements as to his eternal progression. For many, it is clear that only a few years, months, days, weeks, hours, or minutes are necessary to the furtherance of that progression. For many others, many decades are allotted. We do not all need the same experiences, nor the same amount of time to experience, to fulfill our primary purpose in mortality. The ultimate purpose of such lies with God, and will be hidden from us behind the veil of forgetfulness until we return from whence we came to receive our memory of our preexistent state and a full panoramic understanding of our particular purpose in coming to mortality.

There is no necessary progression in reincarnation. One may be trapped within the cycle of death and rebirth for eons, and indeed forever, if one fails to learn the lessons needed. Further, if one assumes that eventual progress does, indeed, come to all eventually, this utterly overturns other core concepts of the gospel relating to ultimate judgment, the degrees of glory based in the law of the harvest and law of restoration, and the consequences in this life of procrastinating repentance and/or fleeing from the gospel and avoiding it altogether (or whatever gospel truth is available within one's culture and time).

I believe that each mortal probabtion is calibrated to each unique individual and what he most needs at that time, but I do not believe that one mortal probation can begin to provide the entire range of growth and learning this magnificent school of hard knocks has to offer. I think this the best place we know of for an apprentice god to go from one small capacity to another, from a small capacity to a greater one, from grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation... just like all the other gods who have gone before.

Whether or not one believes there could be any utility in multiple mortal probations depends on what one thinks of God's creations. If you believe that his creations tend to degenerate into greater and greater darkness, then reincarnation would tend toward spiritual regression. If you believe that his creations have an approximately neutral dispostion, then once again there would be little utility in lifetimes of learning. But if you believe that God's creations have an tiny spark of divinity in them that biases them towards porgression, then giving them enough chances for that spark to do what it was put there for makes sense. Why would a loving Father set some arbitrary cut-off point (end of a single short mortal life) and say, okay, that's it, I don't want you anymore. Do you think the Father in the story of the prodigal son would have ever turned his son away?

I believe that God's love for us reaches far beyond the barriers religion would place around it. Whether or not reincarnation is one of the mechanisms by which God doesn't give up on His children I cannot say for sure, but if not that, then something else.

Edited July 17, 2011 by stYro

[stYro]

Assuming the doctrine of the church to be true that we are sealed to one set of parents, which of all my sets of parents will I be sealed to? Will I not love them all? You really don't see a problem here?

I believe that in the next higher plane, our circles of inclusion will be much, much bigger than they are here.

And will I be resurrected with all my bodies? Will I become a legion?

Nope.

[stYro]

There is little point, then, to reincarnation, save to kick the can down the road and by doing so, allow us the luxury of procrastinating the day of our repentance forever, if taken to its logical conclusion.

This is indeed a strong argument against teaching reincarnation even if it's a true principle, because many people would use it as an excuse to procrastinate. That may well be why reincarnation has not found its way into the "settled dotrines of the church".

However, its effect on me has been the opposite.

My perception used to be, "No way in the world could I be expected to perfect myself because there simply isn't time, so I'm going to rely on the Atonement to compensate for all of my shortcomings."

Now my perception is, "It looks like God has provided a way that I will indeed have enough time, which implies that it really is up to me to overcome all things. I'm tired of having these weaknesses, and don't want to come back with them still limiting me, so I better get to work!"

Yes the road before me looks a lot longer than it used to. It is the biggest task I've ever taken on. But when it's over, I will have earned my diploma. I still need the Atonement to pay the debts I cannot pay, but the line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept part really is up to me.

"You can't get something for nothing

You can't buy freedom for free

You won't get wise with sleep still in your eyes

No matter what your dreams might be." - Neil Peart

Edited July 17, 2011 by stYro

[ken27]

Much of the confusion is due to labeling it as "Reincarnation" when the current conception conflicts with LDS doctrine. There is even an Ensign article that states Reincarnation conflicts with our doctrine.

What we are discussing is Multiple Mortal Probations. This is the concept many believe was taught in olden times, that has been changed by other religions. Similar to how Christianity is similar but there are also many differences which directly conflict with the teachings in his church today.

We have no idea how we are going to progress after this probation. There are many established theories, but all are just as speculative as MMP. We do not know how long it will take.

Here are some of the doctrines that are taught to us that are more easily explained using MMP than if it didn't exist.

1) Be Perfect - Can't be done in this lifetime for any of us. The only way anyone could fulfil that commandment would be in a future probation

2) We must go through the same steps as He did, to become like our Father. Jesus went through the same steps to become like Father. How can we do this without living a perfect life in a mortal probation?

3) How is it possible to repent of physical sins in the Spirit world (A smoker that accepts the gospel in the spirit world) How can we follow the steps of repentance without pysical bodies?

4) We are taught that the moment we are baptized we are without sin because they are washed away. How about when we baptize for the dead? They have not paid any tithing, maybe they smoked or drank. Are alll of these people at an advantage over members who died with the slightest of unrepented sins?

5) Why is there absolutely no knowledge of animal salvation? Is it because they evenually progress to the point that they become human? If they didn't become humans then what heppens? Do they progress to become exalted?

6) Many are "Chosen" before this life. We are told this is due to our actions in the pre-existence. In the MMP concept, it would be due to our actions in a previous physical life. We have proved ourselves ready for certain callings due to training or experiences in a previous probation.

7) We are taught that most of the world that never heard the truth, will be judged by what they would have done of they had been taught the gospel in this life. Does that make sense? If that is the case, then why do we even come to earth in the first place? We could have all be judged without even coming to earth, because God already knows all of the decisions we would have made.

The second principle of the Gospel is Repentance. When we repent of a serious sin, it is a long and difficult process that we will never forget. It makes a deep impression on our spirit. In the next mortal probation, our spirit remembers. That is why some of us have very strong impressions or strong spirit that keeps us away from making those mistakes in this life..

9) We also may have dreams of future events, that may or may not happen exactly as it was revealed to us. I think that these are events that we remember from the past probations, that help us make better decisions in this probation.

[ken27]

This is indeed a strong argument against teaching reincarnation even if it's a true principle, because many people would use it as an excuse to procrastinate. That may well be why reincarnation has not found its way into the "settled dotrines of the church".

However, its effect on me has been the opposite.

My perception used to be, "No way in the world could I be expected to perfect myself because there simply isn't time, so I'm going to rely on the Atonement to compensate for all of my shortcomings."

Now my perception is, "It looks like God has provided a way that I will indeed have enough time, which implies that it really is up to me to overcome all things. I'm tired of having these weaknesses, and don't want to come back with them still limiting me, so I better get to work!"

Yes the road before me looks a lot longer than it used to. It is the biggest task I've ever taken on. But when it's over, I will have earned my diploma. I still need the Atonement to pay the debts I cannot pay, but the line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept part really is up to me.

"You can't get something for nothing

You can't buy freedom for free

You won't get wise with sleep still in your eyes

No matter what your dreams might be." - Neil Peart

You will also notice that in recent conferences we have been told to "Enjoy the Journey" and not judge others because they are at different "Levels." (ie R-rated movies, Sabbath Day Activities, etc.) How can we enjoy the journey when we are also commanded to be perfect? A task that is unobtainable even if we focused 24/7 on obeying every single commandment?

I do not thing that Multiple Mortal Probation lets anyone off the hook. If we refused to repent in this life, we will most likely not repent in the next life. We might be stuck in endless probations until we finally give up and say "I'll just accept the Telestial Kingdom" This is very similar to what we are taught in Sunday School, that we will actually judge ourselves. The most important thing we are taught is to progress. If we progress in each probation, then we will not give up and have a chance to evetually become perfect.

[ken27]

Assuming the doctrine of the church to be true that we are sealed to one set of parents, which of all my sets of parents will I be sealed to? Will I not love them all? You really don't see a problem here?

And will I be resurrected with all my bodies? Will I become a legion? I would think such considerations would give you some reason to reflect whether such a doctrine might be a little bit in conflict with the well established doctrines of the church which you claim to accept..

There are also problems with the current beliefs we have concerning sealings.

I had a missionary companion that had a mother that was sealed to a man that dies. She married again and had many more children. My compantion was one of them. It was a real confusioning point. He could not be sealed to his real mother or his real father. This does not make sense either. He was just told that everything will work out in the end. It think the same can be taught about Multiple Mortal Probations. We don't know how, but we know everything will work out in the end.

[stYro]

Much of the confusion is due to labeling it as "Reincarnation" when the current conception conflicts with LDS doctrine. There is even an Ensign article that states Reincarnation conflicts with our doctrine.

What we are discussing is Multiple Mortal Probations. This is the concept many believe was taught in olden times, that has been changed by other religions. Similar to how Christianity is similar but there are also many differences which directly conflict with the teachings in his church today.

Thank you, for the correction and clarification, Ken! I think the term you are using, "Multiple Mortal Probations", is much more accurate.

We have no idea how we are going to progress after this probation. There are many established theories, but all are just as speculative as MMP. We do not know how long it will take.

Here are some of the doctrines that are taught to us that are more easily explained using MMP than if it didn't exist.

1) Be Perfect - Can't be done in this lifetime for any of us. The only way anyone could fulfil that commandment would be in a future probation

2) We must go through the same steps as He did, to become like our Father. Jesus went through the same steps to become like Father. How can we do this without living a perfect life in a mortal probation?

3) How is it possible to repent of physical sins in the Spirit world (A smoker that accepts the gospel in the spirit world) How can we follow the steps of repentance without pysical bodies?

4) We are taught that the moment we are baptized we are without sin because they are washed away. How about when we baptize for the dead? They have not paid any tithing, maybe they smoked or drank. Are alll of these people at an advantage over members who died with the slightest of unrepented sins?

5) Why is there absolutely no knowledge of animal salvation? Is it because they evenually progress to the point that they become human? If they didn't become humans then what heppens? Do they progress to become exalted?

6) Many are "Chosen" before this life. We are told this is due to our actions in the pre-existence. In the MMP concept, it would be due to our actions in a previous physical life. We have proved ourselves ready for certain callings due to training or experiences in a previous probation.

7) We are taught that most of the world that never heard the truth, will be judged by what they would have done of they had been taught the gospel in this life. Does that make sense? If that is the case, then why do we even come to earth in the first place? We could have all be judged without even coming to earth, because God already knows all of the decisions we would have made.

The second principle of the Gospel is Repentance. When we repent of a serious sin, it is a long and difficult process that we will never forget. It makes a deep impression on our spirit. In the next mortal probation, our spirit remembers. That is why some of us have very strong impressions or strong spirit that keeps us away from making those mistakes in this life..

9) We also may have dreams of future events, that may or may not happen exactly as it was revealed to us. I think that these are events that we remember from the past probations, that help us make better decisions in this probation.

Excellent points, Ken.

I happen to believe the "deep impression on our spirit" concept. All my life I've had a strong, almost obsessive aversion to gambling of any kind, even if the stakes were pennies. This predates my conversion to Mormonism. Anyway, several years ago (I'm pretty old now) I had what seemed to be a partial memory of a previous mortal life. Some specifics, and a general feeling of deep depression and shame and worthlessness only partially obscured by an alchohol-induced numbness. I didn't get the name of that individual, but it just so happened that I know someone who would have known of this person, if he really existed. So I started a conversation and pretended to be asking about someone I'd heard stories of (this person whose life I seemed to remember snatches of), but I was bluffing - I had actually never heard of him. Well to my amazement, not only had this person existed, but every detail that I "remembered" was confirmed (except for one, which is probably beyond possibility of confirmation unless someone else I know remembers a lifetime as an acquaintance of this person). And there was more to the story - I learned that this person had gotten caught up in gambling and actually lost his house in a three-day gambling binge! Had to come home and tell his wife he'd lost the house, gather up the kids, we gotta get out.

I'm not putting this forward as proof of anything to anyone, but it is one possible way that a school-of-hard-knocks lesson learned in one life could conceivably make a strong enough impression to carry forward. There were other problems this guy had, some of which I still have in this life, but some of which I have apparently progressed beyond (I did overcome what might be called juvenile alchoholism at age 12, when I joined the LDS church). So yeah I'm a screw-up, but perhaps not as bad as I used to be.

stYro

Edited July 19, 2011 by stYro