No New Revelation

[Deborah]

While reading Ether 3 this morning I came on verse 3 which says “And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?” Now keep in mind that the Brother of Jared had just seen the finger of the Lord. So why did he question whether the BoJ would believe anything he told him.

Note that after BoJ confirms he would believe whatever the Lord tells him he then reveals himself as the pre-mortal Jesus. Later we read in verse 21 “And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.”

Can you imagine carrying around that knowledge for your entire life and not being able to reveal it? He was told to write these things in a language the world could not read until the time was ready to bring them forth.

This made me wonder how much our most recent prophets have had revealed that we don’t know. There are events yet to unfold and I have no doubt that the prophet knows about them but the time is not yet right to reveal them. So when scoffers (including some supposed members of the church I know) talk about no new revelation I think of the BoJ and what he knew but couldn’t reveal.

[Palerider]

While reading Ether 3 this morning I came on verse 3 which says “And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?” Now keep in mind that the Brother of Jared had just seen the finger of the Lord. So why did he question whether the BoJ would believe anything he told him.

Note that after BoJ confirms he would believe whatever the Lord tells him he then reveals himself as the pre-mortal Jesus. Later we read in verse 21 “And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.”

Can you imagine carrying around that knowledge for your entire life and not being able to reveal it? He was told to write these things in a language the world could not read until the time was ready to bring them forth.

This made me wonder how much our most recent prophets have had revealed that we don’t know. There are events yet to unfold and I have no doubt that the prophet knows about them but the time is not yet right to reveal them. So when scoffers (including some supposed members of the church I know) talk about no new revelation I think of the BoJ and what he knew but couldn’t reveal.

One could also see this as a psycological/literary devise aimed at keeping believers in a "suspension of disbelief". Waiting and wondering about the great events yet to unfold. Wishing and speculating about what the great mystics really know but can't reveal. Believing the leadership after the fact, when they say, "We knew this was going to happen we just couldn't tell you before hand because the time wasn't right."

Admittedly, it makes for great story telling!

[Deborah]

One could also see this as a psycological/literary devise aimed at keeping believers in a "suspension of disbelief".

Yes, Joseph Smith was so up on psychological and literary devices. He was thinking years ahead when this would make the saints complacent in their ignorance.

[Deborah]

Of course the no new revelation refers to some big announcement which the detractors seem to be looking for. Most members readily accept there is constant new revelation in the daily operations of the church and even in the admonitions at GC if one is willing to hear. Much of it is also at the local levels with Bishops and Stake Presidents and even the officers within the organizations.

Joseph Smith desired that everyone would be a prophet and receive his own revelation. I also think that in these last days with the church dispersed throughout the world revelation of significant warnings will be within the stakes of the church as we are far too diversified to have one instruction to meet the needs of every location.

[mfbukowski]

Of course the no new revelation refers to some big announcement which the detractors seem to be looking for. Most members readily accept there is constant new revelation in the daily operations of the church and even in the admonitions at GC if one is willing to hear. Much of it is also at the local levels with Bishops and Stake Presidents and even the officers within the organizations.

Joseph Smith desired that everyone would be a prophet and receive his own revelation. I also think that in these last days with the church dispersed throughout the world revelation of significant warnings will be within the stakes of the church as we are far too diversified to have one instruction to meet the needs of every location.

There is no question that most of it is local. We are working on a radio notification plan in case of natural or other disasters which unquestionably was inspired.

As far as willingness to listen to conference, we see that on this board. There are those who ridicule General Conference and those who treasure every minute, and listen to the mp3's for six months until more gold comes their way.

There are those who sleep through Sacrament meeting and those who are enriched.

That's why they call this life a test!

[Palerider]

Yes, Joseph Smith was so up on psychological and literary devices. He was thinking years ahead when this would make the saints complacent in their ignorance.

Oh, they may not have been called as such but these devices were well known to the treasure diggers and snake oil peddlers......they've been around for millennia.....

Edited July 2, 2011 by Palerider

[Deborah]

Oh, they may not have been called as such but these devices were well known to the treasure diggers and snake oil peddlers......they've been around for millennia.....

Seriously that is a big stretch and an offensive a statement in relation to the Prophet. You also have to deal with "literary devices". I doubt very much that Joseph thought that far in advance to come up with such a complicated trick.

[LDSToronto]

This made me wonder how much our most recent prophets have had revealed that we don’t know. There are events yet to unfold and I have no doubt that the prophet knows about them but the time is not yet right to reveal them. So when scoffers (including some supposed members of the church I know) talk about no new revelation I think of the BoJ and what he knew but couldn’t reveal.

Perhaps this is one explanation why I have heard very little, if any, prophecy from a Latter-day Saint prophet, in the past twenty years (the length of my membership). Of course there are other plausible explanations, ranging from the Lord has nothing to say to the earth through his prophet to no modern prophet has ever received prophetic revelation.

Curiously, I've only heard very minor pronouncements - don't wear flip flops to church, don't wear more than one set of earrings. I've heard silence on the weightier matters of the world - wars, famine, financial crises, etc. Sure, the prophet has given some advice - don't go into debt, but truth be told, my grandfather and my parents gave me the same advice.

I guess we'll never know why the prophet is unable to dictate prophetic revelation to the world, but it is an interesting topic to discuss.

H.

[Deborah]

I guess we'll never know why the prophet is unable to dictate prophetic revelation to the world, but it is an interesting topic to discuss.

Serious question. What else do you expect a modern prophet to reveal? We have been called to repentance and told to prepare physically and spiritually for times to come. Many aren't even listening to that. Joseph Smith was a prophet of a dispensation. The primary purpose of succeeding prophets is to lead the church forward into the world, build temples, continue to call the people to repentance and call those local leaders who will be so important in these last days. That involves a lot of revelation in my mind. I know it's not the apocalyptic announcement many are waiting for but really? Even the prophets of old didn't necessarily give exact time tables. They told the people to repent or such and such will happen.

[LDSToronto]

Serious question. What else do you expect a modern prophet to reveal?

I don't know what to expect with respect to prophecy, but the world has changed substantially in the past twenty years and the most a prophet has said is, "Stay away from pornography". I mean, what about the countless lives lost to war? How about a warning to all nations concerning the evils of war? Or how about a prophetic smackdown for world leaders who oppress their people (North Korea, for example). I'd expect something with respect to these issues, but we have heard nothing. Only silence.

We have been called to repentance and told to prepare physically and spiritually for times to come. Many aren't even listening to that.

Could it be because no bad thing has come to pass? Let's take SSM for example. No society has crumbled. One poster here suggested that society is crumbling, I just don't have the spiritual eyes to see it. Well, I may not have the spiritual eyes to see spiritual decay, but I can say I've seen many public benefits to SSM.

Also, it's hard to see how the prophet and the Twelve's 'revelation' is any different than old-fashioned advice.

Joseph Smith was a prophet of a dispensation. The primary purpose of succeeding prophets is to lead the church forward into the world, build temples, continue to call the people to repentance and call those local leaders who will be so important in these last days. That involves a lot of revelation in my mind. I know it's not the apocalyptic announcement many are waiting for but really? Even the prophets of old didn't necessarily give exact time tables. They told the people to repent or such and such will happen.

Well, I from what you've described, I can't see a difference between a prophet and the Twelve, and a CEO and Board of Directors. Both are running large organizations with vast resources, neither require revelation to do that specific job.

H.

[Deborah]

I'd expect something with respect to these issues, but we have heard nothing. Only silence.

Then you haven't been listening. I've heard all these things addressed more than once.

[LDSToronto]

Then you haven't been listening. I've heard all these things addressed more than once.

The prophet has spoken out against the leaders of North Korea and told them to change their ways and stop oppressing their people? The Twelve have denounced China's communist government and it's record on human rights and the environment? The Church has scolded the United States government for it's lies against the Iraqi government or for it's record of rendition and torture?

What about the financial crash? President Hinckley said in one address that there was no imminent financial disaster! I will find the relevant quote later. What about disaster after disaster - where was the warning to the Indonesians, the Haitians, the people of Louisiana? How about the Japanese? Food storage and 72 hour packs would have done little for most of these people.

I just don't see it.

H.

[Deborah]

Toronto, you are asking the church to get involved in political issues. The church has spoken many times on spreading peace and stopping war and of the horrors of war; but also of the responsibility to obey the laws of the land. The way to spread peace is to spread the message of Jesus Christ. Furthermore even out of war can come positive consequences. In WWII for example the LDS soldiers who were overseas in nations that wouldn't allow missionaries were the missionaries.

I remember Pres. Hinckley speaking after 9/11 that things will never be the same and they haven't been. He also reviewed the dreams of pharoah and the 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine. It seems that was a pretty timely warning and we did have about 7 years of prosperity and then.... As to the financial crisis how many years has the church warned us to get out of debt and living within our means. Those who did so were not as greatly affected by the financial crisis. I was one who had my debt cleared before that happened, decided not to buy the new car I wanted and started cutting back spending. They have been in emphasizing this in particular the last few years.

How do you know that individuals in disasters weren't warned? We often hear many miraculous stories in such circumstances as well as stories of people who felt moved to be somewhere else.

You do not understand what prophets are to do. They are not here to predict every event in the world. They are here to call the people of God, who will listen, to repentance and to getting their lives in order to be prepared for whatever may come, and to be in a position to receive their own revelation in such matters.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Deborah

[KevinG]

I have witnessed and recevied a load of revelation in my LDS church membership and a few times prior to it. I also know not to blabber about sacred experiences and treat them as pig pavement.

Sometimes the Lord asked those who witnessed miracles to go tell everyone they saw. Other times He admonished them to tell no one. Each circumstance is unique and for its own purpose.

If someone claims never to have seen prophecy at work with the LDS Church my response is "I agree, they haven't seen it".

[LDSToronto]

I have witnessed and recevied a load of revelation in my LDS church membership and a few times prior to it. I also know not to blabber about sacred experiences and treat them as pig pavement.

Sometimes the Lord asked those who witnessed miracles to go tell everyone they saw. Other times He admonished them to tell no one. Each circumstance is unique and for its own purpose.

If someone claims never to have seen prophecy at work with the LDS Church my response is "I agree, they haven't seen it".

I don't deny that individuals have experienced revelation; that really isn't the subject of the thread. What I question is whether the prophets have held back prophetic revelation based on the OP's theory.

H.

[Deborah]

What I question is whether the prophets have held back prophetic revelation based on the OP's theory.

Why would you question that? I have never told people some of my revelatory experiences and in fact I've heard GA's say they can't tell everything they know but they do give warnings.

[Storm Rider]

I don't deny that individuals have experienced revelation; that really isn't the subject of the thread. What I question is whether the prophets have held back prophetic revelation based on the OP's theory.

H.

Interesting topic. Idon’t think it has been an “inability” of the prophets and the twelve toproclaim reservation. Rather I thinkthere have been times when the focus was on expanding the Church, strengtheningthe saints, and doing work for the dead. Other times we saw major revelation from the prophet.

The Church does what it does. Some of us would have it be more active inthe world. I have had thoughts that Iwished the prophet at General Conference would address the world at largerather than the membership itself. Ialso realize that I can find fault pretty quickly with almost anything. It is not a redeeming quality and causes me alot of problems…the kind that kills the Spirit.

I believe we will have activist prophets when the time isneeded for them. I also think we willhave rather passive prophets at other times. For me, it matters little. I knowthat Jesus is the true head of the Church and when he wants to act he will.

[Doctor Ninja]

I just don't see it.

Which is the most accurate statement you have made.

For below is just a small snippet of our great leader's Prophetic calling.

Elder Oaks on North Korea and China's oppression:

What is a citizen’s duty if a democratic government is oppressive or supplies only a limited amount of freedom?

Pres. Monson on Political Machinations wherever they may be found and additional calamities:

Pres. Hinckley prophesied of Financial Crisis twice:

Impressive Japan Aid and Updates:

http://lds.org/churc...query=japan+aid

Family Proclamation: (a calling and warning to governments to uphold the family and marriage between man and woman). Read the warnings:

http://lds.org/libra...-1-11-1,FF.html

Calamaties and Distasters have always been prophesied:

Internet Prophecy (1981) Just to show how the Prophets really know:

My question to you: Where the heck have you been in the last 20 years as a professed "member"?

[LDSToronto]

Which is the most accurate statement you have made.

For below is just a small snippet of our great leader's Prophetic calling.

Elder Oaks on North Korea and China's oppression:

That's not revelation on North Korea or China! That is advice to people living under oppressive regimes - and the totality of that advice? It's better to live in oppression than in a lawless land. Come on, Doc, you'll need to do better than that!

Pres. Monson on Political Machinations wherever they may be found and additional calamities:

He said: "Political machinations ruin the stability of nations, despots grasp for power, and segments of society seem forever downtrodden, deprived of opportunity, and left with a feeling of failure."

Kind of obvious - where is the revelation? Where is the prophetic call to these nations?

Pres. Hinckley prophesied of Financial Crisis twice:

Hinckley, in the same talk, said: "Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order."

Impressive Japan Aid and Updates:

That's not prophecy....

Family Proclamation: (a calling and warning to governments to uphold the family and marriage between man and woman). Read the warnings:

None of those so called warnings have come to pass....

Calamaties and Distasters have always been prophesied:

Come on,man! Blanket statements like "great tribulations are to come" are bound to come true. Casting wide net is what psychics do....

Internet Prophecy (1981) Just to show how the Prophets really know:

Seriously? That's not a prediction of the internet, that's a prediction that is easy to make - technology will get better and we'll use it in ways we couldn't dream. Here is a prediction of the internet, from 1971 http://boingboing.net/2011/03/31/prophesies-of-the-in.html

My question to you: Where the heck have you been in the last 20 years as a professed "member"?

Like I said, show me something concrete, specific, and not vague and advice-column-y.....

[Doctor Ninja]

That's not revelation

You are playing both sides of the card as you previously stated:

I don't know what to expect with respect to prophecy

it's hard to see how the prophet and the Twelve's 'revelation' is any different than old-fashioned advice

So to sum it up. Even if it was clear prophecy and revelation to us faithful members, it wouldn't be according to you no matter what.

[LDSToronto]

You are playing both sides of the card as you previously stated:

So to sum it up. Even if it was clear prophecy and revelation to us faithful members, it wouldn't be according to you no matter what.

Well, Doc, a press release stating that aid is being sent to Japan is not revelation... it's a press release! But that aside, there seems to be a spectrum here. It appears that the faithful member will accept anything that comes from a prophets mouth as revelation, while those at the opposite end of the spectrum view the same pronouncements as good advice or blanket predictions (the future will suck, the future will be great, etc) that anyone could make.

Is it all a matter of perspective? There have been some allusions to my lack of faith making me blind to the prophetic revelations that have happened in the past 20 years. Does that mean that the only thing that differentiates prophetic revelation from good advice/blanket prediction is the faith of the observer?

H.

[Doctor Ninja]

Well, Doc, a press release stating that aid is being sent to Japan is not revelation... it's a press release! But that aside, there seems to be a spectrum here. It appears that the faithful member will accept anything that comes from a prophets mouth as revelation, while those at the opposite end of the spectrum view the same pronouncements as good advice or blanket predictions (the future will suck, the future will be great, etc) that anyone could make.

Is it all a matter of perspective? There have been some allusions to my lack of faith making me blind to the prophetic revelations that have happened in the past 20 years. Does that mean that the only thing that differentiates prophetic revelation from good advice/blanket prediction is the faith of the observer?

H.

You stated:

How about the Japanese? Food storage and 72 hour packs would have done little for most of these people

Even though the topic was on prophecy and new revelation. You just had to add in this little piece that was intended as an insult. Hence why I posted what the LDS Church has done that as an "active member of 20 years" should have already known. It is a common tactic to use the "The wealthy LDS Church doesn't do enough for the world or its humanitarian efforts" and it gets old in any of its forms. So it would be appreciated if you read what I posted and acknowledge how much we have really done. Is that possible?

Again, faithful LDS members recognize that our prophets continue to prophecy for our benefit. I am sorry that you don't have this "perspective" and downplay it as "good advice/blanket prediction" that only "believers" ascribe to.

I find it very disheartening that as an "active member of 20 years" you have nothing positive to say in regards to the same Church you profess to belong to. Especially about our dear missionaries who you make out in a very negative light on a different thread. They are young missionaries, have good intentions and sacrificing their time to "checkup" on you because they clearly care about your welfare. I am sorry you don't have this perspective either.

[LDSToronto]

Even though the topic was on prophecy and new revelation. You just had to add in this little piece that was intended as an insult. Hence why I posted what the LDS Church has done that as an "active member of 20 years" should have already known. It is a common tactic to use the "The wealthy LDS Church doesn't do enough for the world or its humanitarian efforts" and it gets old in any of its forms. So it would be appreciated if you read what I posted and acknowledge how much we have really done. Is that possible?

Of course the church has done good - I'm not denying that, how could I? But this thread isn't about acknowledging humanitarian efforts, and the comment about food storage and 72 hour packs was not meant as an insult, it was meant to show that neither of those would have been generally helpful in the catastrophic disasters that took place in Japan, Haiti, New Zealand, Indonesia, etc. What would have been helpful would have been a specific, prophetic warning to those nations.

Again, faithful LDS members recognize that our prophets continue to prophecy for our benefit. I am sorry that you don't have this "perspective" and downplay it as "good advice/blanket prediction" that only "believers" ascribe to.

I asked the question sincerely. Please address the question and not your view of me personally.

I find it very disheartening that as an "active member of 20 years" you have nothing positive to say in regards to the same Church you profess to belong to. Especially about our dear missionaries who you make out in a very negative light on a different thread. They are young missionaries, have good intentions and sacrificing their time to "checkup" on you because they clearly care about your welfare. I am sorry you don't have this perspective either.

Um, you have that all wrong! Check the other thread. Missionaries don't checkup on me because they are concerned about my welfare - if you would read the other thread carefully, I explain my comments and show that it is a problem in my ward that our ward council reported to the stake president! I don't have any bone to pick with missionaries.

I'd ask that, if you can't refrain from being emotional and can't be a bit more accurate in your portrayal of my views, that you kindly withdraw from this discussion.

H.

[Doctor Ninja]

But this thread isn't about acknowledging humanitarian efforts,

So your comment about "food storage" and etc.. was completely unnecessary. These would just be "throw away" words which the mods have warned about.

I asked the question sincerely. Please address the question and not your view of me personally.

I have said nothing of you "personally". I am sorry you are taking my words personally for I encourage you to read them again and see how general they truly are.

I would appreciate you being consistent in this thread. Playing both sides of the card and changing the argument/question doesn't help in any discussion.

Here is another example that you stated earlier:

The prophet has spoken out against the leaders of North Korea and told them to change their ways and stop oppressing their people?

You weren't talking about revelation, you were asking "when the prophet has spoken out on these type of things". Which I showed.

But then you stated even after showing you where a prophet has addressed these issues:

That's not revelation on North Korea or China! That is advice to people living under oppressive regimes - and the totality of that advice? It's better to live in oppression than in a lawless land. Come on, Doc, you'll need to do better than that!

So now you changed it to "revelation" and not "when the prophet has spoken out" which is what you were originally asking for.

Because of these games, I am kindly bowing out.

[mapman]

There are revelations that presidents of the Church have recieved that are not canonized and are not well known among members of the Church. These include several revelations from Joseph Smith, many which can be found at josephsmithpapers.org. Wilford Woodruff recorded many revelations in his journals that are also not well known. John Taylor also recieved several revelations that were never canonized. David O. Mckay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism includes a few of his revelations (I don't currently have access to a copy, so I can't provide examples). The reason why we know about most of these revelations are because they've been dead for a long time and their papers have been examined by researchers. As far as I know, the papers of the recent presidents are not open for research, so there really is no way for us to know whether or not there are revelations in them. The reason for these not being made more well known could be because the Lord doesn't want them to be well known, or perhaps because of the same reason that the Nephites neglected to include Samuel the Lamanites prophecies in their scriptures: they just never got around to adding it to their canon.

Also, it should be remembered that Joseph Smith was a dispensation head and had to restore many things, so one shouldn't expect the same quantity of revelations from his successors. In addition, revelations can be recieved in many ways, and different presidents would have different styles and gifts, so revelations could be recieved in many different ways.