Joseph Smith And Mohammed

[Doctor Ninja]

I don't doubt that Joseph performed a great work. The problem is that Joseph lived only a couple hundred years ago and we know too much about all his faults and imperfections. I think it is difficult for a lot of people to give a lot of praise to somebody as flawed as Joseph Smith.

I don't understand the difficulty for praise is not worship.

If he has done more for the salvation of men, save Jesus only then why shouldn't he receive praise and honor?

I would understand the difficulty for the world to give praise for they don't even believe he was a prophet.

[Jeff K.]

I believe as a people we are indeed cautious in creating an apotheosis for anyone other than Jesus Christ, such powers are relagated to the higher powers than ours.

[Doctor Ninja]

I believe as a people we are indeed cautious in creating an apotheosis for anyone other than Jesus Christ, such powers are relagated to the higher powers than ours.

No one can argue with that. Are you saying that praising and honoring Joseph Smith is elevating him to that divine level?

[Doctor Ninja]

Anyone have any insights on the supposed Joseph Smith's “If you knew who I WAS there isn’t a man on this stand who would not rise up and kill me” statement?

[Nathair/|\]

Anyone have any insights on the supposed Joseph Smith's “If you knew who I WAS there isn’t a man on this stand who would not rise up and kill me” statement?

Just speculation, but if Adam is Michael and Noah is Gabriel, maybe Joseph is one of the other five archangles?

From wikipedia (which is good enough for the moment):

The earliest reference to a system of seven archangels as a group appears to be in Enoch I (the Book of Enoch) which is not part of the Jewish Canon, where they are named as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael

[Jeff K.]

No one can argue with that. Are you saying that praising and honoring Joseph Smith is elevating him to that divine level?

I have seen some come uncomfortably close to it. Praising and honoring Joseph while not forgetting he was a man (granted a great man) is good. It is the forgetting he was a man (with a man's weaknesses as well as courage) part that sometimes tosses me for a loop.

[Jeff K.]

Just speculation, but if Adam is Michael and Noah is Gabriel, maybe Joseph is one of the other five archangles?

From wikipedia (which is good enough for the moment):

The earliest reference to a system of seven archangels as a group appears to be in Enoch I (the Book of Enoch) which is not part of the Jewish Canon, where they are named as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael

I would pick Raphael, that way he could be a "ninja" turtle.

[Doctor Ninja]

I have seen some come uncomfortably close to it. Praising and honoring Joseph while not forgetting he was a man (granted a great man) is good. It is the forgetting he was a man (with a man's weaknesses as well as courage) part that sometimes tosses me for a loop.

Interesting. I guess I have never come across any member who believed he wasn't a man. I love him even more for his imperfections as a man.

[Doctor Ninja]

Just speculation, but if Adam is Michael and Noah is Gabriel, maybe Joseph is one of the other five archangles?

From wikipedia (which is good enough for the moment):

The earliest reference to a system of seven archangels as a group appears to be in Enoch I (the Book of Enoch) which is not part of the Jewish Canon, where they are named as Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael

Interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[Jeff K.]

Interesting. I guess I have never come across any member who believed he wasn't a man. I love him even more for his imperfections as a man.

I think his greatness is magnified by what he overcame. It is one reason I highly recommend "Rough Stone Rolling" which spares no detail and in the end makes him more endearing and more sympathetic and more determined than I had originally imagined him to be.

[coolrok7]

The following is not directed at the individual’s sincerely held personal belief/faith in order to deride them but to illustrate the commonality the two systems of religious belief represented here share in over and against Biblical Christianity.

Jesus said:

Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:15)

and the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. (2 Timothy 2:24-26)

And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:19-21)

Here is a comparison between Islam/Mormonism and the distinctive of Christianity from other world religions (which both distort I believe to their detriment for eternity, hence the concern).

Jesus, the founder of Christianity, is resurrected bodily in a glorified form as all others are dead and in their grave. God chose Muhammad/Joseph as His “Prophet” is their claim and attempts to usurp the faith delivered to the saints (not the Mormons ones) and claim it as their own:

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from among your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you”. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (Acts 3:20-26)

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (Galatians 1:6-eight)

Islam- Muhammad (PBUH) used to visit the cave (ghar) of Hira frequently for spiritual meditation. . . .The first revelation had descended on Muhammad (PBUH) through the angel Jibril (Gabriel). In this way Muhammad (PBUH) overcome with fear, hurried home and related to his beloved Khadija all that had happened. She comforted him assuring him that what he had received was true revelation from Allah. . . .The first revelation was shortly followed by a second one, which came to Muhammad (PBUH) when he was shivering and had been covered by a mantle at home. The command was: ‘O thou enveloped in thy cloak, Arise and warn! Thy Lord magnify’. . .(Qur'an 74:1-3). Muhammad (PBUH), through Allah’s Word, had been chosen to spread His message (Islam and Christianity, p.41)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (POGP, JOSEPH SMITH—HISTORY 1:18, 19)

While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, . . .a personage appeared. . .He. . .said unto me. . .he was a messenger. . .from. . .God. . .name was Moroni. . .commanded me to go to my father and tell him of the vision and commandments which I had received. I obeyed; I returned to my father in the field, and rehearsed the whole matter to him. He replied to me that it was of God, and told me to go and do as commanded by the messenger (POGP, JOSEPH SMITH—HISTORY 1:30, 33, 49, 50).

(in the preface to a 1973 edition of D&C the following reference is made: . . .In September, 1823, and at later times, Joseph Smith received visitations from Moroni, an angel of light, . . .)

God made Aaron to be mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in his stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it. (History of the Church, Joseph Smith, Vol.6:319-20)

Every intelligent person under the heavens that does not, when informed, acknowledge that Joseph Smith Jr. is a Prophet of God, is in darkness, and is opposed to us and to Jesus and his kingdom on the earth (Journal of Discourses, 8:223, Brigham Young).

They claim to have additional scripture to restore truth that was lost:

“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (John 17:17)

You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:14-17)

Islam- The Qur'an testifies that there has been earlier revelation before it. It says: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, for a guidance to mankind (Qur'an 3:3-4a). . . .Therefore, the Qur'an, as the final revelation, is the perfection and culmination of all the truth contained in the earlier Scriptures (Revelations). . . .The purpose of the Qur'an is to guard the previous revelations by restoring the eternal truth of Allah. . . .The Qur'an is a unique Book of Divine guidance. The Qur'an is the very Word of Allah. It was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), through the archangel Jibril (Gabriel) from an archetype preserved in the seventh heaven. . . .What is especially surprising is that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad who was unlettered (Islam and Christianity, pp.26-27)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- The Bible sits on the pulpit of hundreds of religious sects. The Book of Mormon, the record of Joseph, verifies and clarifies the Bible. It removes stumbling blocks, it restores many plain and precious things. . . .the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passage of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. (Ensign, Nov. 1984, p.8; THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH’S TESTIMONY pamphlet, p.2)

A falling away from the true religion that Christ preached, from the ordinances he performed, and from the church he organized was foretold in the Bible. Confirming this loss of truth are many of history’s great Christian reformers. Many of them sought to conform with the Holy Scriptures; some looked for the restoration “of all things” that Peter had prophesied. The Latter-day Saints not only recognize that this falling away did occur, but also announce that God has made himself known to mortal men in these modern times and has restored his church in detail as it was anciently. . . .THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST RESTORED THROUGH A MODERN PROPHET—Joseph Smith (The Falling Away And Restoration Foretold pamphlet, p.1, 14)

the everlasting gospel could not be discovered through reading the Bible alone. . .this is the only Christian church in the world that did not have to rely upon the Bible for its organization and government. . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards, p.40)

Third, how important is the Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith called it “the keystone of our religion.” (History of the Church, 4:461.) “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations,” he said, “and where is our religion? We have none.” (History of the Church, 2:52.). . .(The Ensign, President Ezra Taft Benson, Nov. 1984, p.6)

There is a spiritual power in the Book of Mormon that is unique to all other scriptures, . . (. . .Benson, Sept. 1987, p.78)

Both Islam and Mormonism have a similar distorted view on the nature of God in the context of the Trinitarian view of God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit which identifies them as one God (in three persons spiritually speaking, not to be confused with humans in our identity of singular physical beings):

“You are My witnesses,” says the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the LORD, “that I am God. (Isaiah 43:10-12)

Jesus answered, . . . “HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD” (Mark 12:29)

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Jesus as one of the Godhead, God before becoming a man not becoming a god in the process of what is referred to as the incarnation announced by the angel Gabriel:

And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1:26-33)

Islam- According to the true teachings of Islam, God is not to be conceived in an anthropomorphic way...Since He is one and the only One, a Muslim cannot invoke Him in the name of the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. . . .The Qur'an explicitly states: ‘No son did Allah beget nor is there any god along with Him.’ This is the point where Muslims and Christians painfully part company. The issue is deeply theological and anthropological. The Christian view of incarnation seems to compromise God’s transcendence and sovereignty while at the same time exalting a mere man to God-like status. By denying the incarnation, Islam is really affirming both the absolute transcendence of God and the rightful status of man as the servant and khalifa of God on earth. . . .(Islam and Christianity, pp.88, 132)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- I will preach on the plurality of Gods. . . .I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?. . .

The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth. . . .

The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take (that) view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth.

Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . .All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster. (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., 6:474-476)

In common with the rest of Christianity, we believe in a Godhead that consists of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” said Elder Oaks. . . .He said that the original Bible teachings on this subject confirm this teaching, but follow teachings attributable to Greek philosophy that were adopted into their theology in A. D. 325 at the Council of Nicea, which was convened by the Emperor Constantine. “Other councils followed from their decisions and the writings of churchmen and philosophers there came a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine in which orthodox Christians of that day lost the fullness of the truth about the nature of God and the Godhead.” Subsequently, apostate belief in an abstract incomprehensible deity replaced belief in a tangible, personal God, said Elder Oaks. (Church News, APRIL 8, 1995—19, Elder Dallin H. Oaks)

The Oneness of the Father and the Son: There has been much misunderstanding regarding the oft-repeated statement that Jesus and his Father are one. A careful reading of the seventeenth chapter of John should clarify this matter fully. As Jesus was about to be offered up, he prayed unto his Father and thanked him for his apostles, saying, “that they may be one, as we are.” (John 17:11). . .Now it is very apparent that Jesus was not speaking of oneness of personage, but oneness of purpose, . . .(John 17:24). . .Again it is evident that the oneness referred to has no reference to oneness of personage, for if Jesus and his Father were one in person, how absurd to think that Jesus would pray unto himself, . . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Elder LeGrand Richards, p.22)

This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity-and truly it is the father of all heresies-. . .pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. . . .a spirit essence called the Trinity. . . .The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy. . . . (Elder Bruce R. McConkie while speaking at a BYU devotional in 1984)

Physicality of being is not a condition for God to be God but it is for us in our state of existence (and will be in eternity) in a resurrected physical form with their spirit (in the image of God spiritually speaking), beginning with Adam and Eve. The above quotes I think calls into direct question the validity of the claims made by both and found to be wanting.

The formulation of the Nicene creed was to defend against the heresy of Arius of Alexandria in denying the Deity of Jesus (John 1:1-3, 14), in denying the existence of Jesus before His birth as a man in the incarnation (Who was already part of the Godhead as God, not “a god” as Witnesses and others teach).

They have certain false teachings about Jesus:

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. . . .For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15)

Islam- The important role bestowed on the Prophet Isa (PBUH) did not make him ‘Son of God’ or single him out as the only saviour for mankind. . . .The Christian witness that man is forgiven because of the crucifixion of Jesus is not in line with the Muslim belief. The end of the Prophet Isa (PBUH) on earth is blanketed in mystery, . . .On this issue the Qur'an tells us: That they said (in boast); We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God! But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them; and those who differ, therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow. For surety, they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him unto Himself; and Allah is ever Mighty wise (Qur'an 4:157-58). . . .Islam does not identify with the Christian conviction that man needs to be redeemed. The Christian belief in the redemptive sacrificial death of Christ does not fit the Islamic view. (Islam and Christianity, pp.140-41)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints- At the great council in heaven, God stood in the midst of His spirit-children and appointed “the noble and great ones” to future positions of leadership after they should become mortals. In that assembled throng there was “one like unto God.” This individual, while acting as the mediator, was none other than Jehovah of the Old Testament, and when He lived in mortality He was Jesus Christ of the New Testament. . . .The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.15)

I have no animosity toward the individual believers in each faith system but I do have animosity for the false teachings of each but I can be in agreement with them where they do get some things right.

[cdowis]

And I have no animosity towards you for misstating our beliefs.

We accept the teaching of Christ in John 17:19-23, and reject the teachings of theologians, emporers and scholars as found in the Nicene Creed. (BTW, were you aware that Emporer Constantine banished the Egyptian bishops who voted against this creed? No offense but if you read the history of the council of Nicea, you will discover that this was a document with a political purpose, and had nothing to do with the teachings in the Bible.)

Edited July 4, 2011 by cdowis

[Hestia]

coolrok, how many times do you need to be warned to stop proselytizing.

Per board guidelines of the do nots: Proselyting or "witnessing" from either side. Preaching doesn't create a discussion. It is one sided.

Your statement "The following is not directed at the individual’s sincerely held personal belief/faith in order to deride them but to illustrate the commonality the two systems of religious belief represented here share in over and against Biblical Christianity" is contradicted by the content you posted.

[coolrok7]

That was not my intent in responding to the thread op. My perspective of the topic is that my response was only intended for discussion as Calmoriah did just before your comment.

I’m well aware of the rules. I think that discussion in the context of the thread op is I think inconsistent with actual Biblical teaching (which in my view is not proselytizing). A lot of what is stated has been posted here for years without being told it was out of bounds.

I know it is not popular here what I express at times but then I experienced a lot of that same thing at Mormon chapels I was invited to attend over the years where I attended to actually here learn from them what they believe being taught in their own surroundings. I’ve done that for Islam as well. They and Mormons do exactly that, misrepresent what I believe (put words in my mouth so to speak that I don’t believe but what others may).

I’ve heard over the years Mormons here and over at ZLMB (no longer active) speaking about their attempt in frustration to correct others views concerning Mormonism that they believed were in need of correction from their perspective. I don’t see me doing anything different.

Many Mormon missionaries in their proselytizing efforts, officially sent by the Mormon Church President/Prophet to people’s homes, over the public airways (in addition such things as in the present “I’m a Mormon” commercial which I just saw as I’m typing this. I’m in Minnesota for the fourth at my sisters, a sort of family reunion), meeting them in public situations, etc., I believe misrepresent Biblical teaching and the faith perspective I was raised in without any attempt to make corrections after having pointed it out to them.

Always asking if I had questions without really answering them or denying that the Church misrepresents others teachings that are actually Biblical. As always I think it is a matter of perspective in which I’m not deliberately trying to disobey the board rules.

I’m not above being corrected but I don’t think I’m necessarily out of line here. Perhaps you could change to red where you see I’m out of line if it’s not too much to ask?

[Pahoran]

That was not my intent in responding to the thread op. My perspective of the topic is that my response was only intended for discussion as Calmoriah did just before your comment.

I’m well aware of the rules. I think that discussion in the context of the thread op is I think inconsistent with actual Biblical teaching (which in my view is not proselytizing). A lot of what is stated has been posted here for years without being told it was out of bounds.

Within reason, it doesn't matter what you think is proselytizing. What matters is what the mods think is proselytizing.

Yes, it is true that you have a track record of posting these long cut-and-paste screeds that proselyte for your views.

I know it is not popular here what I express at times but then I experienced a lot of that same thing at Mormon chapels I was invited to attend over the years where I attended to actually here learn from them what they believe being taught in their own surroundings. I’ve done that for Islam as well. They and Mormons do exactly that, misrepresent what I believe (put words in my mouth so to speak that I don’t believe but what others may).

Then why are you doing to us what you complain about being done to you? The best way to avoid misrepresenting someone else's faith is to avoid representing it at all. There is an arrogant, condescending offensiveness in view when you(!) presume to tell us(!) what our(!) faith teaches.

I’ve heard over the years Mormons here and over at ZLMB (no longer active) speaking about their attempt in frustration to correct others views concerning Mormonism that they believed were in need of correction from their perspective. I don’t see me doing anything different.

Really?

But you didn't say anything at all about your (low-church biblicist) faith anywhere in the above post. Everything in it talks about two faiths that are not yours: Mormonism and Islam.

Many Mormon missionaries in their proselytizing efforts, officially sent by the Mormon Church President/Prophet to people’s homes, over the public airways (in addition such things as in the present “I’m a Mormon” commercial which I just saw as I’m typing this. I’m in Minnesota for the fourth at my sisters, a sort of family reunion), meeting them in public situations, etc., I believe misrepresent Biblical teaching and the faith perspective I was raised in without any attempt to make corrections after having pointed it out to them.

I'm sure that the rules will permit you to correct any wrong statement that any Latter-day Saint might make about your faith.

And how will we know when that happens? Very easily: you will talk about your faith instead of ours. And you will focus upon what Latter-day Saints (primarily in this forum) are saying about your faith, and address those specific issues.

But when you throw up discredited, down-market anti-Mormon chestnuts like "Lucifer the spirit brother of Jesus!!!!" (Gasp, schlock, horror!!) then you are not even trying to take this forum seriously.

Always asking if I had questions without really answering them or denying that the Church misrepresents others teachings that are actually Biblical. As always I think it is a matter of perspective in which I’m not deliberately trying to disobey the board rules.

I’m not above being corrected but I don’t think I’m necessarily out of line here. Perhaps you could change to red where you see I’m out of line if it’s not too much to ask?

The mods have said that they don't want to get involved in "tutoring" individual posters.

Coolrok, if you can't tell the difference between discussing, which is what this forum is for, and haranguing, which is what you usually do, then maybe you need to re-think a few things.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Ares]

I’ve heard over the years Mormons here and over at ZLMB (no longer active) speaking about their attempt in frustration to correct others views concerning Mormonism that they believed were in need of correction from their perspective. I don’t see me doing anything different.

We don't allow proselytizing here by anyone including Mormons. We also don't allow arguing with the mods.

This thread was to discuss similarities/differences between Islam/Mormonism not to contrast them with your particular favored flavor of Christianity.

[cdowis]

Always asking if I had questions without really answering them or denying that the Church misrepresents others teachings that are actually Biblical.

Why don't you open up a new thread where we can discuss whether the Nicene Creed doctrine of homoousia is Biblical. We have discussed this many times, and will be happy to hear what you have to say about your Biblical beliefs.

I have a feeling that you had better know your Bible actually says. But let's see what you have to say.

[Deborah]

I believe misrepresent Biblical teaching and the faith perspective I was raised in without any attempt to make corrections after having pointed it out to them.

And we believe you misrepresent Biblical teachings. However the Bible is not a church and is subject to different interpretation even among the many non-LDS Christian faiths. You have no corner on the Bible and disagreeing with your interpretation is not the same as mis-stating the teachings of a church which are based on their interpretation of the Bible.

[Storm Rider]

That was not my intent in responding to the thread op. My perspective of the topic is that my response was only intended for discussion as Calmoriah did just before your comment.

I’m well aware of the rules. I think that discussion in the context of the thread op is I think inconsistent with actual Biblical teaching (which in my view is not proselytizing). A lot of what is stated has been posted here for years without being told it was out of bounds.

I know it is not popular here what I express at times but then I experienced a lot of that same thing at Mormon chapels I was invited to attend over the years where I attended to actually here learn from them what they believe being taught in their own surroundings. I’ve done that for Islam as well. They and Mormons do exactly that, misrepresent what I believe (put words in my mouth so to speak that I don’t believe but what others may).

I’ve heard over the years Mormons here and over at ZLMB (no longer active) speaking about their attempt in frustration to correct others views concerning Mormonism that they believed were in need of correction from their perspective. I don’t see me doing anything different.

Many Mormon missionaries in their proselytizing efforts, officially sent by the Mormon Church President/Prophet to people’s homes, over the public airways (in addition such things as in the present “I’m a Mormon” commercial which I just saw as I’m typing this. I’m in Minnesota for the fourth at my sisters, a sort of family reunion), meeting them in public situations, etc., I believe misrepresent Biblical teaching and the faith perspective I was raised in without any attempt to make corrections after having pointed it out to them.

Always asking if I had questions without really answering them or denying that the Church misrepresents others teachings that are actually Biblical. As always I think it is a matter of perspective in which I’m not deliberately trying to disobey the board rules.

I’m not above being corrected but I don’t think I’m necessarily out of line here. Perhaps you could change to red where you see I’m out of line if it’s not too much to ask?

The difficulty of your position is that I and a host of others can say the exact same thing about your beliefs, misunderstanding of scripture, and following after the doctrines of men. You follow a doctrine, the Trinity, which has nothing to do with scripture and everything to do with a vote of men 300 years after the crucifixion of Christ. Where should we go from there? Should we stand on either side and smugly deride the position of the other? It seems like an impasse; there is no discussion.

LDS believe the following:

· I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

· I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.

· He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

· He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

· He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.

· He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

· He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

· I believe in the Holy Spirit,

· I believe in the forgiveness of sins,

· the resurrection of the body,

· and life everlasting.

If an individual has these beliefs is he saved? Does no believing in the Trinity negate the saving power of Jesus Christ? In fact, does belief in any additional false doctrine negate the saving power of Jesus Christ?

[Storm Rider]

Why don't you open up a new thread where we can discuss whether the Nicene Creed doctrine of homoousia is Biblical. We have discussed this many times, and will be happy to hear what you have to say about your Biblical beliefs.

I have a feeling that you had better know your Bible actually says. But let's see what you have to say.

My friend, I have yet to meet any Evangelical that "knows" his Bible. In addition, I have never met one of them that knows the history of Christianity. Their belief system, for them, just seems to pop into existence and the early church simply does not exist. Without an understanding of church history it is very difficult to understand why you believe what you believe and what those beliefs actually mean.

Oh, and any attempt to invite others into any form of Bible bashing is rejected. Nothing was ever solved by such worthless activity. LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of Truth to the soul of each of us. We follow the admonition of Jesus to Peter and encourage all to seek the same witness.

[cdowis]

My friend,

Perhaps.

I have yet to meet any Evangelical that "knows" his Bible.

They know what others have taught them about the bible.

In addition, I have never met one of them that knows the history of Christianity. Their belief system, for them, just seems to pop into existence and the early church simply does not exist. Without an understanding of church history it is very difficult to understand why you believe what you believe and what those beliefs actually mean.

I have spoken with someone here on this forum that specialized in their history. After our little discussion on Constantine, she became rather distressed. Even though she was a scholar, she was able to see it in a very different light.

One of those "aha" moments that make this all worth while.

Oh, and any attempt to invite others into any form of Bible bashing is rejected.

If you know me well enough to call me friend, then you would certainly know my technique. Thanks for the advise, but not necessary.

Nothing was ever solved by such worthless activity. LDS believe that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of Truth to the soul of each of us. We follow the admonition of Jesus to Peter and encourage all to seek the same witness.

This forum is not missionary work. Indeed, it is specifically against the rules.

This is apologetics, it is a hobby.

Edited July 5, 2011 by cdowis

[Ares]

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This topic has been closed by a moderator.

Reason: Off topic and getting personal

Kind regards,

Mormon Dialogue & Discussion Board Staff