Can The Church Admit Some Fault In Order To Heal And Move On?

[Calm]

The section for those who are interested:

Allegation of abortions

In her 1886 interview with "vitriolic anti-Mormon journalist W. Wyl",^[23] Sarah Pratt alleged that Joseph Smith allowed Bennett, a medical doctor, to perform abortions on Smith's polygamous wives who were officially single.^[24][25] In a public charge "that was likely true," according to author Andrew Smith, Bennett was accused by many of performing abortions,^[26] including Hyrum Smith;^[10] Zeruiah Goddard claimed Bennett told Sarah Pratt "that he could cause abortion with perfect safety to the mother at any stage of pregnancy, and that he had frequently destroyed and removed infants before their time to prevent exposure of the parties, and that he had instruments for that purpose."^[10] If the women refused, Bennett stated that he came with Joseph's approval.^[26] Sarah Pratt herself recounted an incident in which

“ [bennett was en route to do] "a little job for Joseph [because] one of his women was in trouble." Saying this, he took [out] a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end. I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered.^[27] ” Pratt also related her observations of Bennett's work for Joseph Smith to Smith's son Joseph Smith III,^[28]

“ I saw that he was not inclined to believe the truth about his father, so I said to him: 'You pretend to have revelations from the Lord. Why don't you ask the Lord to tell you what kind of a man your father really was?' He answered: 'If my father had so many connections with women, where is the progeny?' I said to him: 'Your father had mostly intercourse with married women, and as to single ones, Dr. Bennett was always on hand, when anything happened.'^[29] ” However, Smith III's own published account differed from Pratt's recollection,

“ Did he ever at such times or at any other time or place make improper overtures to you, or proposals of an improper nature—begging your pardon for the apparent indelicacy of this question? To this Mrs. Pratt replied, quietly but firmly, "No, Joseph; your father never said an improper word to me in his life. He knew better." Sister Pratt, it has been frequently told that he behaved improperly in your presence, and I have been told that I dare not come to you and ask you about your relations with him, for fear you would tell me things which would be unwelcome to me. "You need have no such fear," she repeated. "Your father was never guilty of an action or proposal of an improper nature in my house, towards me, or in my presence, at any time or place. There is no truth in the reports that have been circulated about him in this regard. He was always the Christian gentleman, and a noble man."^[30]

As far as I can tell while the claims of Bennett practicing abortions were widespread, the claim he did so for the wives of Joseph Smith were limited to Sarah Pratt and possible Ebenezer Robinson (still looking for the direct quote I read eons ago).

It appears that Pratt's only source was Bennett if her claim is accurate, whose credibility on other issues is questioned. Such a claim needs solid confirmation, imo.

PS: the quote from Robinson has been interpreted to possible mean abortion or possibly just a secluded birthplace so the children could be given to others to raise, but as of yet I can't find the full quote so am not drawing any of my own conclusions yet.

[BCSpace]

http://en.wikipedia....nda_Bates_Pratt

I didn't see any sources showing more than allegations of abortions performed for JS. Can you be more specific?

[Libs]

The section for those who are interested:

As far as I can tell while the claims of Bennett practicing abortions were widespread, the claim he did so for the wives of Joseph Smith were limited to Sarah Pratt and possible Ebenezer Robinson (still looking for the direct quote I read eons ago).

It appears that Pratt's only source was Bennett if her claim is accurate, whose credibility on other issues is questioned.

Just saying that it's not all so cut and dry that someone's "spiritual and intellectual honesty" should be questioned, if they have some doubts about Joseph's integrity. That statement by BC Space is why I brought this up. And, this is just one small item, in a vast mountain of...things that could cause one to "wonder" about Joseph's integrity.

[Calm]

Just saying that it's not all so cut and dry that someone's "spiritual and intellectual honesty" should be questioned, if they have some doubts about Joseph's integrity. That statement by BC Space is why I brought this up. And, this is just one small item, in a vast mountain of...things that could cause one to "wonder" about Joseph's integrity.

I understand. Not trying to argue against that. In that post was just discussing the evidence.

[Libs]

I didn't see any sources showing more than allegations of abortions performed for JS. Can you be more specific?

Not sure what you mean? There are only allegations. I don't know if they are true or not and I don't know how one could know, for sure. Just saying that it could give someone cause to wonder.

[Libs]

I understand. Not trying to argue against that. In that post was just discussing the evidence.

Thank you.

[cion]

No.

Why not?

[cion]

And the injury that needs to be healed is....?

Maybe no mistakes were ever made by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the other church leaders...

[BCSpace]

Just saying that it's not all so cut and dry that someone's "spiritual and intellectual honesty" should be questioned, if they have some doubts about Joseph's integrity. That statement by BC Space is why I brought this up. And, this is just one small item, in a vast mountain of...things that could cause one to "wonder" about Joseph's integrity.

Sure. But the problem has always been the integrity of the source or the reporting of the sources of criticism. I've never come across a criticism of the Church that didn't have a serious flaw and in this case, it borders on lying. Now the critics have done a good job masking their intent such that the casual reader will have trouble discerning. However, an intellectually honest person can be identified by their reaction to the truth of the matter when it's pointed out.

I didn't see any sources showing more than allegations of abortions performed for JS. Can you be more specific?

Not sure what you mean? There are only allegations. I don't know if they are true or not and I don't know how one could know, for sure. Just saying that it could give someone cause to wonder.

An allegation (or accusation) is not evidence of truth. I looked at the sources given and found no evidence that abortions were performed at JS's behest. You gave no specific sources yourself, only an article that alledges.

[Libs]

Sure. But the problem has always been the integrity of the source or the reporting of the sources of criticism. I've never come across a criticism of the Church that didn't have a serious flaw and in this case, it borders on lying. Now the critics have done a good job masking their intent such that the casual reader will have trouble discerning. However, an intellectually honest person can be identified by their reaction to the truth of the matter when it's pointed out.

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the truth of the matter? And, why is the source suspect, just because she has criticisms of Joseph? I've been told to read all of the good things said about Joseph, as if they were true, but I don't understand why the bad things could not also be true. Just because someone is "disgruntled", doesn't mean they don't have cause to be or that they are lying.

[cion]

Sure. But the problem has always been the integrity of the source or the reporting of the sources of criticism. I've never come across a criticism of the Church that didn't have a serious flaw and in this case, it borders on lying. Now the critics have done a good job masking their intent such that the casual reader will have trouble discerning. However, an intellectually honest person can be identified by their reaction to the truth of the matter when it's pointed out.

I'm getting the feeling some Mormons don't think prophets make human mistakes. How boring!

[thesometimesaint]

cion:

Of course mistakes were made by JS, BY, and every other Prophet of the Church. They were all mortal men. But it is a stretch to say that because those men made mistakes, they made a particular mistake(s), and we should question their integrity because of it.

[Calm]

Maybe no mistakes were ever made by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the other church leaders...

So you just want a generic apology made without any specification of what the mistake was?

And that would be helpful to healing how ('I don't know how I've hurt you but I'm sorry' is not exactly an effective apology or admission of error)?

[Calm]

I'm getting the feeling some Mormons don't think prophets make human mistakes. How boring!

I get the feeling you are not really reading people's posts accurately. How tedious!

[bookofmormontruth]

Why not?

The Lord doesn't apologize and Joseph Smith has already been exalted in the Celestial Kingdom despite his "mistakes". "Mistakes" that have no relevance to our salvation.

The microscope is on you and us, not the Lord or Joseph Smith.

[Calm]

An allegation (or accusation) is not evidence of truth. I looked at the sources given and found no evidence that abortions were performed at JS's behest. You gave no specific sources yourself, only an article that alledges.

Since she made no claim of the truthfulness of the allegation in her original comment, but only reported that she had read an allegation of Sarah Pratt's and then linked to it when asked, it seems to me she addressed the CFRs just fine.

[Calm]

I've been told to read all of the good things said about Joseph, as if they were true

Poor instruction, imo. One shouldn't insist on someone perceiving something is true even before it is read....

but I don't understand why the bad things could not also be true.

Certainly they could be, it is important to see if there is credible evidence for both the good and the bad and if evidence is limited, one should at least try and determine if such claims are consistent with what is solidly attested to....

[Calm]

cion:

Of course mistakes were made by JS, BY, and every other Prophet of the Church. They were all mortal men. But it is a stretch to say that because those men made mistakes, they made a particular mistake(s), and we should question their integrity because of it.

And if apologies or 'admissions' are being made, it is important to separate those mistakes that need to be apologized for from those that don't rather than just give a generic broad admission/apology as that is just a cop-out, just an attempt to do the 'politically correct' thing.

If someone is going to issue an apology, nothing will be accomplished if it isn't somewhat specific.

[Calm]

"Mistakes" that have no relevance to our salvation.

cion appears to think that at least some of JS's mistakes do have relevance (as he sees them as impeding someone's healing and thus progression) but since he has neglected to actually identify these specific mistakes, it is hard to tell whether one should take him seriously or not.

[cion]

And if apologies or 'admissions' are being made, it is important to separate those mistakes that need to be apologized for from those that don't rather than just give a generic broad admission/apology as that is just a cop-out, just an attempt to do the 'politically correct' thing.

If someone is going to issue an apology, nothing will be accomplished if it isn't somewhat specific.

You are right, Calmoriah. Not every Mormon I know considers the actions of Joseph Smith upon girls like Helen M. Kimball to require any apology at all, which baffles me. So, we must ask "How can something be apologized for if nobody considers it a mistake in the first place?" There might also be some Mormons who consider the somewhat racist comments by Brigham Young to be justified. Maybe the church can't apologize until all the members are on board...

[Calm]

You are right, Calmoriah. Not every Mormon I know considers the actions of Joseph Smith upon girls like Helen M. Kimball to require any apology at all, which baffles me. So, we must ask "How can something be apologized for if nobody considers it a mistake in the first place?" There might also be some Mormons who consider the somewhat racist comments by Brigham Young to be justified. Maybe the church can't apologize until all the members are on board...

Well at least you are getting a bit more specific though I still don't know what your actual issue with Joseph Smith's treatment of Helen might be and I get to assume which comments of BY you think were racist as well since it is unlikely you believe all of them were.

Nice strawman though.

PS: Unfortunately I can think of at least four things that I have heard critics and others claim as mistreatment of Helen and I only agree with one of them (and that depends on the specifics of the claim) based on my own readings of Helen's words so I still don't know if I agree with cion or not. Same thing with BY's words...depending on the claim---I have heard tons of them---there are some I would most definitely agree were racist, some that I would agree are racist based on today's beliefs and some that are not racist but are being taken out of context...so same problem here. And it would not be appropriate for the Church to apologize in every case as sometimes it was just a personal and private error having nothing to do with the institution.

[Mars]

cion, dude, just say this:

"The Church should apologize for <whatever it is that wronged you>. Here's why <reasons>"

Your OP is kind of a cloak and dagger thing. Just come right and say what you think.

[Calm]

cion, dude, just say this:

"The Church should apologize for <whatever it is that wronged you>. Here's why <reasons>"

Your OP is kind of a cloak and dagger thing. Just come right and say what you think.

Thank you mars for putting it so clearly.

[Pahoran]

You are right, Calmoriah. Not every Mormon I know considers the actions of Joseph Smith upon girls like Helen M. Kimball to require any apology at all, which baffles me. So, we must ask "How can something be apologized for if nobody considers it a mistake in the first place?" There might also be some Mormons who consider the somewhat racist comments by Brigham Young to be justified. Maybe the church can't apologize until all the members are on board...

Okay, now I think we're getting closer to what you are really after. All the talk about "healing" and "moving on" appears to me to be a smokescreen; what you really hope to see is the Church "admitting" various unproven accusations against Joseph.

Sorry. It's not going to happen.

Regards,

Pahoran

[cion]

Well, now I realize that people on this board do not feel there were any mistakes made that need to be acknowledged by the church as a form of apology. There is nothing to apologize for. I'm cool with that.