Do You See A Good/Moral God Overall?

[Hughes]

Why or why not? (or explain "other")

In order for your question to have meaning, you have to answer what it means to be Good?

And inorder to answer that you have to posit an absolute moral standard by which you're determining what is good or not.

And inorder to posit an absolute moral standard, you're assuming an absolute moral law/standard giver, and that would have to be God.

And now your question is does God, the creator of the standard by which you assume to be judging by, live by his own standards?

Seems to me that he can't live any other way.

[Alla]

No I do not think so but it seems he allows them to be tortured.

Yes, He does allow this. God sent us here. And before He did that He told us why we need to come on this earth. We are here to learn what we couldn't learn over there. We are here to learn not only good but also evil. What kind of choices we make here is very important. What we become in this life is very important. Some people make evil, bad choices.

We all have PRIVILEGE to make our own choices and He can not take it away from us.

God can not make all of us to be good people and make only good choices. WE have to do this. We have to decide ourselves what we want to be, or who we want to be. Then God will judge us, He will tell us who we became according to His judjment.

If God always stoped evil, or forced us to do only good when we don't want to, then what would be the point to be here?

[Walden]

It is not a moral equivalent to compare doing chores with the atrocities that many individuals suffer through in their life. If I said I tortured my children in a very cruel way so that they would appreciate it when they were not being tortured that would not be moral?

I voted that I do not see god as being moral (though to clarify, I don't believe in god),

Sorry, but I fail to see any good/morality in knowingly sending your children to a situation in which you are fully and completely aware that they will starve to death before they reach their fifth birthday (every single day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes, or about one death every five seconds), be born with debilitating and/or excruciatingly painful diseases/abnormalities (for a quick example, just do a google search of harlequin ichthyosis....but please be forewarned that it is a gruesome birth defect), be cared for by abusive and/or neglectful parents who end up killing their children through physical abuse, etc. Not to mention the numerous slaughters as presented in the Old Testament....I never considered vengeance a moral trait.

[Hughes]

I voted that I do not see god as being moral (though to clarify, I don't believe in god),

Sorry, but I fail to see any good/morality in knowingly sending your children to a situation in which you are fully and completely aware that they will starve to death before they reach their fifth birthday (every single day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes, or about one death every five seconds), be born with debilitating and/or excruciatingly painful diseases/abnormalities (for a quick example, just do a google search of harlequin ichthyosis....but please be forewarned that it is a gruesome birth defect), be cared for by abusive and/or neglectful parents who end up killing their children through physical abuse, etc. Not to mention the numerous slaughters as presented in the Old Testament....I never considered vengeance a moral trait.

Do women have a moral right to abortion?

[bluebell]

Purposefully giving my son problems so he can 'become better' while overcoming them, is that moral?

If your son needed a painful procedure, which would require some down time and a lot of therapy to bounce back from, but which was the only way he would be able to grow to adulthood, would it be moral to withhold that from him because it was going to be painful and difficult in the short term?

[Deborah]

Yes, He does allow this. God sent us here. And before He did that He told us why we need to come on this earth.

That is the point that LDS understand that all the whiners about evil don't. We chose to come here, knowing what we would face.

Atheists look at the innocent child not understanding that inside is an adult spirit that was educated pre-mortally. We can weep for all the suffering innocents, as God I'm sure does, but we know their suffering shall be but a moment and they will be back home.

[Alla]

I voted that I do not see god as being moral (though to clarify, I don't believe in god),

Sorry, but I fail to see any good/morality in knowingly sending your children to a situation in which you are fully and completely aware that they will starve to death before they reach their fifth birthday (every single day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes, or about one death every five seconds), be born with debilitating and/or excruciatingly painful diseases/abnormalities (for a quick example, just do a google search of harlequin ichthyosis....but please be forewarned that it is a gruesome birth defect), be cared for by abusive and/or neglectful parents who end up killing their children through physical abuse, etc. Not to mention the numerous slaughters as presented in the Old Testament....I never considered vengeance a moral trait.

I understand what you are saying. We believed and believe now that to know evil(death, starve to death, be sick, be wronged...) is necessary thing.

Kind of like in army. Let's say I am a father and I am a general in army. My sons want to become like me. They want to be generals. I will tell them:"If you want to become like me, to be good generals, you have to go yo boot camp, to go to battle fields, you might be even captured and tortured, but this is THE ONLY WAY for you to become like me-general. I am general because I KNOW good and EVIL, I went trhough all those things and that is why I am who I am."

[3DOP]

I see God as very good, infinitely good. This informs all of my philosophy and theology. Would random nature make sure that the things that are necessary for my survival, such as good food, also give delight to my senses? Would random nature have taken care that getting ahead of itself, no organism developed that having sensory perception, had failed to develop at least some ability for locomotion. God loves a worm, and me not as a worm, but a man. I sense a Person of wonderful goodness giving an ability to appreciate what appears to me to be objectively beautiful in the created order. Could anybody argue rationally that a snow-covered mountain against a blue sky is an eyesore? Does anybody think that the scent of a rose is repulsive? I think He made these things and me to appreciate them just to let me know of His care for me. I see a wonderfully good God before I take a look at religion, and I am predisposed to find Him in any religion that claims to know that He has spoken and what He has said that I can't know from His creation alone.

The religion which I think has the best claims believes in things that can make one pause. The existence of Hell, the suffering in this world, and the cruelty which seems to go unpunished are problems that I admittedly place to one side. Being assured in countless other ways, natural and supernatural, of the loving motives of this wonderfully good God, I trust that He will be able to defend Himself against any accusations that are levelled against Him at that day when our own acts are called into account, and when, if any should so choose, they may speak out against such a Creator as we have discovered.

[Monster]

I didn't equate those things.

I responded to this question:

If a parent sends a child to school to get an education and the child is bullied, harrassed, and abused at school, was the parent's decision to educate immoral?

No the parents decision was certainly not immoral, but if they knew of the abuse and did noting would that not be immoral?

[Monster]

Yes, He does allow this. God sent us here. And before He did that He told us why we need to come on this earth. We are here to learn what we couldn't learn over there. We are here to learn not only good but also evil. What kind of choices we make here is very important. What we become in this life is very important. Some people make evil, bad choices.

We all have PRIVILEGE to make our own choices and He can not take it away from us.

God can not make all of us to be good people and make only good choices. WE have to do this. We have to decide ourselves what we want to be, or who we want to be. Then God will judge us, He will tell us who we became according to His judjment.

If God always stoped evil, or forced us to do only good when we don't want to, then what would be the point to be here?

I could buy into that concept if perhaps we could actually remember God telling us how we will be tested and how it is important we respond accordingly and why it is in our best interest. As it is this concept is just a philosophy of men to help explain bad things. You would never treat your child that way. Even if your child had to go through something bad like a difficult surgery you would try and explain it to them, why it was necessary and how it will all be good in the long run. Not drop them off at the hospital and pick them up a week latter.

I could also accept this philosophy if the purpose of this life was about the experience yet not so much of our eternal existence depended on it. Basically get the experience and then continue on on after this life and use that experience to progress. The problem with MOrmon theology is we can not remember anything and yet our entire eternal existence and what kingdom we end up in is dependent on how we react to a given situation that we are trust into.

It would have made much more sense if the plan had had more built in safe guards to keep us from going of the deep end or at least more first hand information to make the correct choice. It is like taking a test at school and being held accountable for the results yet never being allowed to have access to or study the subject matter that will be on the test.

I should add I personally think God is loving and cares for us. I just think the Mormon or even Christian construct of God is misguided and turns him into a petty and vindictive God, handing out punishment for infractions that you did not even know were wrong.

[mercyngrace]

No the parents decision was certainly not immoral, but if they knew of the abuse and did noting would that not be immoral?

He does something.

And it's a much bigger something than you seem to be requesting.

[mercyngrace]

I could also accept this philosophy if the purpose of this life was about the experience yet not so much of our eternal existence depended on it. Basically get the experience and then continue on on after this life and use that experience to progress. The problem with MOrmon theology is we can not remember anything and yet our entire eternal existence and what kingdom we end up in is dependent on how we react to a given situation that we are trust into.

It would have made much more sense if the plan had had more built in safe guards to keep us from going of the deep end or at least more first hand information to make the correct choice. It is like taking a test at school and being held accountable for the results yet never being allowed to have access to or study the subject matter that will be on the test.

I should add I personally think God is loving and cares for us. I just think the Mormon or even Christian construct of God is misguided and turns him into a petty and vindictive God, handing out punishment for infractions that you did not even know were wrong.

I actually agree with you to some degree. Where we part ways is that I don't believe the theology creates a petty and vindictive God. I think the aherents do that.

[Alla]

I could buy into that concept if perhaps we could actually remember God telling us how we will be tested and how it is important we respond accordingly and why it is in our best interest.

We can't remeber that is why He sends prophets to remind us. Prophets teach, we know.

As it is this concept is just a philosophy of men to help explain bad things.

We don't belive that it is philosophy of men. We believe that this is the true reason why bad things happen to good people' date=' or I would say to ALL people.

You would never treat your child that way. Even if your child had to go through something bad like a difficult surgery you would try and explain it to them, why it was necessary and how it will all be good in the long run. Not drop them off at the hospital and pick them up a week latter.

I agree. There is a reason why father wants us to forget about place where we came from. If we remembered we would have very strong temptation to go back to heaven. If we didn't have fear of death we would easily commit suicide.

But we have to be here as lon as Father thinks is good for us to learn.

I could also accept this philosophy if the purpose of this life was about the experience yet not so much of our eternal existence depended on it. Basically get the experience and then continue on on after this life and use that experience to progress. The problem with MOrmon theology is we can not remember anything and yet our entire eternal existence and what kingdom we end up in is dependent on how we react to a given situation that we are trust into.

I understand. That is why we have prophets who remind us. We trust them like we trust God. When prophets tell us that we lived before and we made our choice to come here to learn' date=' FOR ME it is the same as my Father in Heaven would talk to me.

I should add I personally think God is loving and cares for us. I just think the Mormon or even Christian

Mormons are Christians. We belive in Jesus Christ. All people who believe in Christ and try to keep His commandments are Christians.

construct of God is misguided and turns him into a petty and vindictive God' date=' handing out punishment for infractions that you did not even know were wrong.[/quote']

I don't belive that God punishes people for something that they don't even know is wrong. Do you have any examples where you think God did something like this?

[Monster]

I actually agree with you to some degree. Where we part ways is that I don't believe the theology creates a petty and vindictive God. I think the aherents do that.

I think I would agree with that. Very good observation

[Mordecai]

No the parents decision was certainly not immoral, but if they knew of the abuse and did noting would that not be immoral?

Parents? Of course. But if God sees the future and sees that, for the long term good of mankind, He has to step back and let bad things happen, He will do that. Humans don't see the future, so we can't see good coming out of torture. God can turn human suffering into something good, which is why He is God. Joseph Smith suffered tremendously in Liberty Jail (a nice paradoxical name), but God told Him, "This will be as a small moment... will give you experience and be for your good" (paraphrase).

[Eldwynn]

No.

I can't believe that something of which we are "made in his/her image" would create something like Malaria. A virus that once infected, makes you MORE likely to get fed on by mosquitoes with malaria. It kills you slowly, and primarily kills children. I can't believe an all loving god would design a world with so much suffering, all to prove a point. It would be EASY to create a universe without it. And by "it" I mean incredibly painful, pointless, suffering. If it's someones time to die, then why not kill them in a painless way?

There is no lesson these tiny children are learning. When they are born just to be killed by an extremely painful developmental condition.

I am human, and if I wanted to teach a child to die, I would do it quickly and painless. I would not slowly torture them with the very many developmental diseases that biology has discovered. Only an immoral god would do that to an innocent child. Only an immoral god would command us NOT to abort children, and yet do so himself in the far more hideous ways.

Don't even get me started on neurological diseases.

If god does exist, then I don't want to meet him/her/it/whatever. I don't need children to understand that drowning them (many of them presumably unborn)is wrong. Many people respond to this responding "you just don't understand the mind of god [like I do]". If that is the case, then I never want to meet it.

[Hughes]

No.

I can't believe that something of which we are "made in his/her image" would create something like Malaria. A virus that once infected, makes you MORE likely to get fed on by mosquitoes with malaria. It kills you slowly, and primarily kills children. I can't believe an all loving god would design a world with so much suffering, all to prove a point. It would be EASY to create a universe without it. And by "it" I mean incredibly painful, pointless, suffering. If it's someones time to die, then why not kill them in a painless way?

There is no lesson these tiny children are learning. When they are born just to be killed by an extremely painful developmental condition.

I am human, and if I wanted to teach a child to die, I would do it quickly and painless. I would not slowly torture them with the very many developmental diseases that biology has discovered. Only an immoral god would do that to an innocent child. Only an immoral god would command us NOT to abort children, and yet do so himself in the far more hideous ways.

Don't even get me started on neurological diseases.

If god does exist, then I don't want to meet him/her/it/whatever. I don't need children to understand that drowning them (many of them presumably unborn)is wrong. Many people respond to this responding "you just don't understand the mind of god [like I do]". If that is the case, then I never want to meet it.

I asked Walden but got no response, I'll ask the same of you.

Do women have a moral right to abortion?

[zerinus]

Why or why not? (or explain "other")

Did you read the Lectures on Faith by Joseph Smith that I recommended you in another thread? If you did, you would find that it provides a clear and comprehensive answer to your question.

[Mordecai]

I can't believe that something of which we are "made in his/her image" would create something like Malaria. A virus that once infected, makes you MORE likely to get fed on by mosquitoes with malaria....

According to some ID advocates, there is good evidence that a number of major diseases became deadly to humans only after the parasites/bacteria mutated. That should be an interesting line of study for those interested in the debate.

[Jeff K.]

If I thought my children were going to be stunted or die, I would be horrified. Who wouldn't be horrified by such a thought? But what if there was a way out. A way in which I could overcome that very strong obstacle to their life. Among other things it would mean giving up a great deal of control over my children, allowing them to find their own way, and face the short term consequences of the path they chose. It would also mean that someone I loved would have to pay a terrible price, something much higher than any of us could imagine today. But my children would flourish, many would grow, and they would all have the opportunity to overcome the shortcoming in their progress and become complete and whole. None would be denied and all would offered the same opportunity.

Now from my perspective, a skinned knee is a small thing, because I know the child will eventually be made whole. To my child it is the end of the world, and they want it to stop. But I realize they have to learn what a skinned knee is, how the consequence of their actions or the actions of others affects them, and how to overcome skinned knees and see the bigger scheme of things. Perspective and allowing failure and enduring are part of the process.

If I am a mortal man, and understand these things in a limited way. Not fully knowing but having faith in the larger scheme of things, feeling empathy for those about me with skinned knees but having faith that they too will be made whole. How could I not believe in a moral and good set of parents who watch over me, cry with me, laugh with me, and when I fall, help pick me up because in the greater scheme of things they are helping me overcome that debilitating shortcoming that I had before.

Let us look at it from another angle. Is it a good and moral parent that keeps their child absolutely safe. Making all the decisions, allowing no skinned knees, no pain, and making life an idyllic pleasure for them so that they can never know sacrifice, deprivations, death, lonliness, and with that never appreciate birth, charity, success, and friendship, brotherhood, and love. You cannot have one without the other, and the deeper the cost, the greater the understanding and feeling and empathy.

Such a parent to me offers a beautiful package, but the gift holds the greatest evil, it keeps us in our stunted state, it retains us in an incomplete and unhealed state.

Given that, the great and terrible price paid for our opportunity to grow. I can think of a more wonderful beautiful parentage that is both moral and loving beyond anything we can possibly imagine. Perhaps because it is so hard to imagine, many of us dismiss it as we see the hurt done to our brothers and sisters by brothers and sisters or sometimes just situations we find ourselves in. For those with a difficult imagining such love I can only suggest patience and attempting to understand. Such an attitude is something that only develops once you have skinned your knee a time or two. And of course, having children adds to that.

[rameumptom]

The LDS God provides a way for all mankind to hear and accept his teachings. Only those who fully and forever reject Christ, becoming his eternal enemy, are not heirs of spiritual salvation. This means that salvation is near universal. All that is required is belief and repentance. And then, for those who are also obedient, there is extra glory added upon them, until they achieve a fullness of God's glory.

This is much more good, moral and merciful than Calvin's TULIP or any other offering now available. God is moral because he requires repentance and obedience. He is good and merciful because he does not severely limit salvation to only those who have heard his gospel and accepted it. All are invited. All are given the opportunity to hear. All are saved, except for complete enemies.

[Eldwynn]

Let us look at it from another angle. Is it a good and moral parent that keeps their child absolutely safe. Making all the decisions, allowing no skinned knees, no pain, and making life an idyllic pleasure for them so that they can never know sacrifice, deprivations, death, lonliness, and with that never appreciate birth, charity, success, and friendship, brotherhood, and love. You cannot have one without the other, and the deeper the cost, the greater the understanding and feeling and empathy.

I can understand what you are saying. Pain is a great way to get people to learn something (then again... assuming intelligent design... that is only because we are designed to learn through pain). Sometimes you have to let your child skin his knees to get something. Sometimes it's a lot more painful (circumcision anyone?).

But I am not talking about anything remotely close. I am talking about something like cholera or Ebola.

Someone proposed that these viruses evolved to affect humans only after they were created. Fine, but that still doesn't answer mutational developmental diseases. Diseases such as Progeria, Ondines curse (being born having to consciously breathe, as in it's not automatic), Androgen insensitivity (being born looking like a beautiful woman, but in reality you are a man, with no sex organs) etc. etc. The list goes on and on.

If I wanted to teach my child a lesson, and I gave him fatal familial insomnia, you would not call me moral, by any definition. You would not say "Oh well, he is the father and he knows best. Who am I to judge?" You would call the act immoral, and throw me in prison. Under any definition of morality that applies to humans, god either turns up immoral, or is just not responsible for ANYTHING in the universe.

[Eldwynn]

The LDS God provides a way for all mankind to hear and accept his teachings. Only those who fully and forever reject Christ, becoming his eternal enemy, are not heirs of spiritual salvation. This means that salvation is near universal. All that is required is belief and repentance. And then, for those who are also obedient, there is extra glory added upon them, until they achieve a fullness of God's glory.

This is much more good, moral and merciful than Calvin's TULIP or any other offering now available. God is moral because he requires repentance and obedience. He is good and merciful because he does not severely limit salvation to only those who have heard his gospel and accepted it. All are invited. All are given the opportunity to hear. All are saved, except for complete enemies.

So your definition of morality is "requiring repentance and obedience?". So I am moral as long as I require people to be obedient and apologize to me? Makes sense to me

[Eldwynn]

I asked Walden but got no response, I'll ask the same of you.

Do women have a moral right to abortion?

I do not see how this is relevant. Whether I say yes or no, what does it have to say about the morality of "god" performing the abortions for us- even against our will?

[Walden]

Do women have a moral right to abortion?

Women have a right to abortion as determined by the US Supreme Court. Not sure what you are asking about a "moral right." This gets into things such as when does life begin, rights of the fetus, etc. which is a whole other topic.

If you are hoping to draw some type of comparison between "moral rights" as practiced by a human versus "moral rights" as practiced by god, then you are woefully off the mark. God is perfect, humans are imperfect. Evil cannot exist in god's presence, yet "evil" surrounds us humans. With regard to morality, yes, I would expect more from a perfect being such as god.