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Official Church Logo . . .


consiglieri

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Only to the expensive and ultimately useless copyright attorneys, everyone else has the two brain cells to rub together and figure out that a logo doesn't equal official Church statement. Anyone can make a logo, if you want something official go to an official site, not a public forum.

Then I assume you are OK with the following non-commercial logo uses:

1. Anti-mormons dressed as missionaries, complete with name-tags bearing the logo (they do this outside of the Sacred Grove today, only without the logo)

2. mormon*****.*** (AKA the Trailer Park) posting the logo on it's home page

H.

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what consig did not publish was the phone number to the IP department of the Church, the phone number is in the Handbook, in the same section.

It should be expected then that someone must due their duty and call the number to report the violation.

CHI:

The logotype may not be used as a decorative element or a computer screen saver. Nor may it be used in any personal, commercial, or promotional way, such as on family history books, T-shirts, buttons, or banners. Questions may be directed to:

Intellectual Property Office 50 East North Temple Street, Room 1888 Salt Lake City, UT 84150-0018 Telephone: 1-801-240-3959 or 1-800-453-3860, extension 2-3959 Fax: 1-801-240-1187 E-mail: cor-intellectualproperty@ldschurch.org

I'm calling right now to report LDS Guy's use of the logo in his avatar.

H.

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Somewhere along the way, the LDS Church seems to have forgotten we are the LDS Church.

The Church is its Head, the membership, the key-holders, the corporation, and whatever other construct the Lord uses to give His servants access to various parts of the world in terms through which the Gospel can best be proclaimed and received. I do not think He or His authorized servants have forgotten this.

The use of a logo is part of a bigger mission to ensure the best interests of the entire, collective Church membership in various forms of visual communications. My understanding is that, because it is registered as the legally-protected identifier of the Church, it may only be properly used on official Church stationery, missionary name tags, signs, items published by Church headquarters, etc. So it makes sense that individuals and units are not authorized to use the logo on anything they create, any more than they are authorized by any other corporate body to use any other similarly-protected logo on anything they create.

It has more to do with controlling corporate (not in a bad way) representation of the Church by using what the corporation creates than with controlling individual representation of the Church where members do whatever they wish with their own resources. But once we give our money to the Church its corporation may create a logo and control its use.

In practice, members are free to do what they wish with the logo, consequences aside--the handbook lays out the correct principle. I think it would require a significantly egregious misuse of the logo against corporate interests to make enforcement worth the expense.

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Then I assume you are OK with the following non-commercial logo uses:

1. Anti-mormons dressed as missionaries, complete with name-tags bearing the logo (they do this outside of the Sacred Grove today, only without the logo)

2. mormon*****.*** (AKA the Trailer Park) posting the logo on it's home page

H.

This is not private non commercial use so I am not ok with this being used, in fact this use is criminal in many states since it is an impersonation mean to intentional mislead.

I am not falling under any of the about mentioned situations as it has been said, I am an active member of the Church and have never presented any personal opinions as the teachings or doctrine of the Church.

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I will cease and desist when one of three things happen, I am official asked to stop by the Church, counciled by ward or stake leadership to stop, or when every Stake President and Ward Bishop world wide ceases and desists to violate this copyright on a weekly basis.

Until then I leave the outhouse laws to the outhouse lawyers.

If you feel you're on solid ground here, then you ought to feel confident about making the Church aware of your intentions and reasoning, again as a matter of integrity. I'm only suggesting that you do so and then report back to us what they say.

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This strikes me as offensive on a number of levels.

Somewhere along the way, the LDS Church seems to have forgotten we are the LDS Church.

Any thoughts?

While I have sympathy for your position, it seems a bit naive for you to think that the church is somehow owned by the members

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If you feel you're on solid ground here, then you ought to feel confident about making the Church aware of your intentions and reasoning, again as a matter of integrity. I'm only suggesting that you do so and then report back to us what they say.

I didn't say anything about solid ground or to that effect, what I said is there is not infringement for a private non commercial use, so I am not going to bother the Church Headquarters with such useless inquires they are dealing with delivering humanitarian add to several disaster areas right now, there efforts are best devoted to that no idiotic outhouse lawyer antics.

If you feel that you are so correct and I so wrong why not contact them about me and tell us what they tell you?

You the one that has there underpants in a bind here not me.

I don't see a problem and I think your full of hot air like all outhouse lawyers.

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Here's a thought: As a matter of integrity, why don't you write to the president of the Church or somebody else at Church headquarters. Tell whomever that you think the Church's policy regarding use of the logo is silly and useless and you intend to defy it by continuing to use the logo as your personal Internet avatar. Then, if you please, report their response to us. I'd be curious to hear what it is.

The legal entity owning the Church's intellectual properties is called Intellectual Reserve Inc. They can be reached via this Web page. If you asked them they would most likely say no; but in reality they probably don't care for such a use.

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Not my stake president, and not the bishops in my stake. They all abide by this rule, having read it in the manual.

H.

We all now that your stake and ward are as helplessly bound to the handbooks and disregard the scriptures as the ancient pharisees were helplessly bound to there rules instead of following the Torah.

You have made this clear in previous threads, so it's redundant.

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This is not private non commercial use so I am not ok with this being used, in fact this use is criminal in many states since it is an impersonation mean to intentional mislead.

No commercial gain. Therefore, non-commercial.

I am not falling under any of the about mentioned situations as it has been said, I am an active member of the Church and have never presented any personal opinions as the teachings or doctrine of the Church.

AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh STOP IT!!!!!!! I'm going to wet myself! You've NEVER presented your personal opinions as teaching or doctrines of the church?!?!?! What about all that nonsense concerning the unpardonable laundry list of sins?

HeeeHeeeeHeeeHeee... you should send THAT posting to the church and tell them you are an active member and will be using the logo to represent yourself on internet message boards...

Oh I'm sore from all the laughter.

H.

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We all now that your stake and ward are as helplessly bound to the handbooks and disregard the scriptures as the ancient pharisees were helplessly bound to there rules instead of following the Torah.

You have made this clear in previous threads, so it's redundant.

Just so I'm clear, did you just call my stake president a pharisee? I didn't even know that you knew him.

H.

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At the same time though, who IS the LDS church if it is not the LDS people? It seems more like a business practice than a worshipful one. (No offense meant, honestly. Just reminds me of trademark logos)

I could be wrong here - but I think this is an "Ameri-centric" view. And I think it is incorrect. It is my understanding that the United States of America is an entity that was formed by "We the people" and that we ARE the country, with the government selected by and serving us. As the country, we can alter or even abolish it according to our declaration.

And it is my understanding that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an entity that was formed by Jesus Christ, and, by commandment, incorporated and maintained according to US law by men. When invited, we sustain by common consent certain actions and callings, but it is still the Lord's church. We may constitute the membership of the church, but we are not the church. And as members of the Lord's church we cannot alter or abolish it other than with His permission or at His direction...

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I am honestly sad that you cowarded to a false demand. All too often copyright holders and their thugs, through out the law, fair use (17 USC 107) means nothing to them, it really is a shame to see the Church using such tactics.

I feel the same way. I really felt like a coward after an attorney from "The Free Expression Policy Project" contacted me for her project in documenting large corporations who use copyright law to bully individuals and surpress free speech. According to her, I clearly had a good case.

http://www.fepproject.org/commentaries/ceaseanddesist2.html#1

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AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh STOP IT!!!!!!! I'm going to wet myself! You've NEVER presented your personal opinions as teaching or doctrines of the church?!?!?! What about all that nonsense concerning the unpardonable laundry list of sins?

HeeeHeeeeHeeeHeee... you should send THAT posting to the church and tell them you are an active member and will be using the logo to represent yourself on internet message boards...

Oh I'm sore from all the laughter.

H.

Well this is where you will learn that your refusal to read and look at anything objectively, that I never stated anything about Church policy that wasn't referenced throughly, unlike you who made several statement without any reference or support besides anecdotal evidence without reference.

The only one presenting personal views as doctrine are you but unfortunately you still fail to see this.

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Great, another misuse of my tithing money. I wonder if the logo will appear outside the mall?

And, yes, I agree, LDS Guy is putting this entire website at risk, given your experience.

H.

Well your opinion has no weight here since you are not only unqualified vocationally to make the statement but even you were a qualified lawyer you can only make expert opinion of Canadian law not US copyright law.

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You know I made no such statement, I have only commented on your posts as you present them.

I though you finally understood that as you said you did earlier?

So when you said:

"We all now that your stake and ward are as helplessly bound to the handbooks and disregard the scriptures as the ancient pharisees were helplessly bound to there rules instead of following the Torah."

...you were inferring that my stake and ward are Pharisaical because I said that in over 20 disciplinary councils I've attended, the stake president followed the handbook?

Just want to be sure that someone who represents the church using the official logo is clearly understood.

H.

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I feel the same way. I really felt like a coward after an attorney from "The Free Expression Policy Project" contacted me for her project in documenting large corporations who use copyright law to bully individuals and surpress free speech. According to her, I clearly had a good case.

http://www.fepproject.org/commentaries/ceaseanddesist2.html#1

Still, I hate to say it, but you made the right choice. You don't want to risk the chance of a loss and potential financial ruin.

H.

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It seems from the letter that you had posted the entire discussions - did you post entire discussions, did you provide commentary of some sort?

If you are familiar with those old pastel discussions, what I quoted was the left-hand column of the left page, where each principle of each discussion had the verbiage of what the missionaries were supposed to teach. The website was probably about 10% quotations of missionary discussions and 90% commentary on what they said. It was non-profit, and clearly was fair use.

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Well your opinion has no weight here since you are not only unqualified vocationally to make the statement but even you were a qualified lawyer you can only make expert opinion of Canadian law not US copyright law.

Sorry, when did I show you my resume? You do know that we have attorneys in Canada that are ranked Band 1 through 5 in The Chambers Review, Intellectual Property Law division? This division covers domestic, US, and international jurisdictions.

H.

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I will cease and desist when one of three things happen, I am official asked to stop by the Church, counciled by ward or stake leadership to stop, or when every Stake President and Ward Bishop world wide ceases and desists to violate this copyright on a weekly basis.

Until then I leave the outhouse laws to the outhouse lawyers.

Just seems like a weak cause to champion here. Another note the acrimonious words such as "outhouse" and the absolute knowledge that every Stake President and every Bishop violates the copyright seems a bit on the immature side.

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To take an extreme example as an illustration, were the perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre "the LDS Church" when they undertook to murder those travelers? I maintain they were not, since they were acting in violation of Church teachings.

But did you get a load of their t-shirts?

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