Brigham Young places Nephites in Central America

[SkepticTheist]

is it a separate group entirely from the CoC or do all the members have CoC membership and affiliation?

Are your leaders the CoC leaders, and you just happen to be out of harmony with their current stance, and you are more fundamentalist?

Or are your leaders entirely different leaders of an entirely separate sect now?

If we were to say hypothetically that the RLDS was the continuation of the true church originally rather than the "Brighamite/LDS", what then makes your branch the true branch rather than the CoC?

We can start a new thread for this if you want.

<br><br>Yes, well, you should, as I have stated various times I am Restorationist RLDS (not to be confused with Community of Christ). To say that I see the leaders of my church as infallible is laughable. We know they are fallible, and thus we have had to throw of the shackles of erring leaders at least twice in our history. Something the LDS faithful would never do no matter how egregious the errors of those who lead them. 

[Daniel Peterson]

We know they are fallible, and thus we have had to throw of the shackles of erring leaders at least twice in our history. Something the LDS faithful would never do no matter how egregious the errors of those who lead them.

That's right. We're slaves, robotic automatons, lesser humans, unconcerned with truth, unworthy to lick the soles of your shoes.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That's right. We're slaves, robotic automatons, lesser humans, unconcerned with truth, unworthy to lick the soles of your shoes.

Dr. Peterson, you should know better then to put words in someone's mouth.

Tell me, what would the leaders of the LDS church have to do for you to consider them in apostasy?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

is it a separate group entirely from the CoC or do all the members have CoC membership and affiliation?

Are your leaders the CoC leaders, and you just happen to be out of harmony with their current stance, and you are more fundamentalist?

Or are your leaders entirely different leaders of an entirely separate sect now?

If we were to say hypothetically that the RLDS was the continuation of the true church originally rather than the "Brighamite/LDS", what then makes your branch the true branch rather than the CoC?

We can start a new thread for this if you want.

Sounds good. I will start a new topic answering your above query.

[Daniel Peterson]

Dr. Peterson, you should know better then to put words in someone's mouth

So should you.

Tell me, what would the leaders of the LDS church have to do for you to consider them in apostasy?

They would have to apostatize.

[SkepticTheist]

Hey, I got it, lets start yet another thread on that subject too.

So should you.

They would have to apostatize.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

<br>So should you.<br><br><br>They would have to apostatize.<br>

<br><br>Thank you for that vague answer. It shows, at least to me, you cannot counter my original contention.

[LeSellers]

And he placed people dressd like Quakers on the Moon.

Huh?!? CFR.

Lehi

[Pahoran]

The maps were mentioned recently here:

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/19862/How-Moroni-and-the-plates-may-have-made-it-to-Hill-Cumorah?s_cid=newsline

"If the map is genuine and accurately reflects the thinking of early Latter-day Saints and/or Joseph Smith, it supports the theory that Moroni traveled Northward along what became the El Camino, continued traveling north-northwest to Arizona, and then worked his way north through Utah (where we learn that he dedicated the spot for the Manti Temple as well as other temple sites) and eventually found his way to upstate New York."

Obviously the maps are not genuine or accurate because of the Kinderhook. But they were mentioned as if they might be genuine. These maps need to be dropped because continued use is deception.

They were used recently here:

http://www.mygazines.com/issue/678/11

"the map that Joseph Smith drew of Moroni's travel..."

When items associated with a known fraud become props for support of a position, all integrity is lost. I am not trying to derail this thread, what I would like to know is if Brigham Young's thoughts in the quote were influenced by those maps.

"All integrity is lost?"

Really?

One incorrect detail is all it takes to lose all integrity?

Wow.

Is all your thinking so blissfully black and white?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Daniel Peterson]

<br><br>Thank you for that vague answer. It shows, at least to me, you cannot counter my original contention.<br><br><br>

<xyz><123>You mean, your original insult. Right. <goo goo g'joob> I'm powerless to respond.<987><abc>

[BookofMormonLuvr]

<xyz><123>You mean, your original insult. Right. <goo goo g'joob> I'm powerless to respond.<987><abc>

Perhaps you will join us in the topic started by ST on the subject?

[LeSellers]

And he placed people dressd like Quakers on the Moon.

Huh?!? CFR.

Lehi

[Bernard Gui]

Don't shoot the messenger. There is a bunch of stuff Brigham said that you all don't accept anymore- what makes this any more plausible?

Might want to take a peek at this:

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/moonhoax.html

Despite the intense public speculation about the moon story, the Sun never publicly conceded that it was a hoax. On September 16, 1835 the Sun did publish a column in which it discussed the possibility that the story was a hoax, but it never confessed to anything. Quite the contrary. It wrote that, "Certain correspondents have been urging us to come out and confess the whole to be a hoax; but this we can by no means do, until we have the testimony of the English or Scotch papers to corroborate such a declaration." This is the closest the Sun ever came to an admission of guilt.

Bernard

[LeSellers]

And he placed people dressd like Quakers on the Moon.

Huh?!? CFR.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

I came across this quote on p. 382 of Leonard Arrington's "Brigham Young: American Moses". When Brigham Young was establishing colonies, he expressed his hopes for how far the work would expand. In the last year of his life he said:

I'm surprised I had never heard this quote before, but it very clearly demonstrates that Brother Brigham believed in a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon until the end of his life.

Yes, and like Joseph, he also believed in a N. America setting as well. He's on the record as stating the Nephites were in St. George, and the Gaddianton Robbers filled the mountains of S. Utah... as well as his statements about volumous amounts of records located in New York.

I think this statement sums up his view nicely.

"The land of Joseph is the land of Zion; and it takes North and South America to make the land of Joseph."

Journal of Discourses, 14:10-11

[Steadfast]

Huh?!? CFR.

Lehi

Finally, we consider a statement attributed to Joseph Smith that may prove to be the one most frequently cited by modern critics. An article in The Young Woman's Journal 3 (1892), 263-264, indicates that Joseph Smith, as early as 1837, had declared that there six-foot people living on the moon, who dressed like Quakers and lived nearly a thousand years. Because of its absurdity, some critics have included the article in their list of Joseph Smith's "false prophecies," though it is by no means prophetic in nature and despite the fact that the article does not attribute the belief to divine revelation. (Joseph may have been joking.) The statement regarding people on the moon is both second-hand and very late, and there are no known statements from Joseph Smith himself. The source is the Oliver B. Huntington Journal, Book 14, and is from a journal entry dated 1881, nearly forty years after Joseph Smith's death! It is hardly a reliable source. Nevertheless, Joseph Smith may have believed, as did Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 13:217), that the moon is inhabited. After all, it had been reported in the press in 1835 that Sir John Herschel, the most prominent astronomer of the day, had seen creatures on the moon who were human in form with bat-wings and wearing no clothing. During the century before, others had reported seeing moon people who were half-human and half-dog. Amazingly, a few astronomers even reported seeing people living on the sun! As it turned out, the Herschel story was a journalistic hoax, designed to increase circulation.<a href="http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html#en14">'>http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html#en14">¹⁴ But large numbers of people believed it, and it continues to appear occasionally in twentieth-century publications. Could we really fault Joseph for accepting as fact (if he did so) something that he thought prominent scientists of his day accepted? After all, he did not claim to have any divine source for this information.

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html

[rameumptom]

It could reasonably be interpreted either way, but I think that the most reasonable interpretation of the statement is that he was talking about Mesoamerica.

Sorry, two sentences does not make a reasonable argument on why yours is the "reasonable interpretation". When Brigham Young starts with North America in his statement and moves south through Central America "to" the place where Nephi was, THAT depicts a belief in Nephites in South America and a Hemispheric Model.

The only thing this shows is that a North American model does not fit with BY's belief. I personally am a Mesoamericanist. But I'm not interested in forcing quotes to fit anything. And that is what's being done here.

[Hashbaz]

I took a step back and reread the quote without my Mesoamericanist goggles on, and in the interest of honesty, I do agree that the wording is ambiguous and can be read either way. I read the quote to my wife, and she took the side that implied the Nephites were beyond Central America rather than in it. Since my wife is always right (I hold the dogma of spousal infallibility), I may have to reconsider my interpretation of the quote, though I still think the wording is ambiguous enough that it's reasonable to interpret it as saying the Nephites were in Central America (I think it's notable he explicitly mentions Arizona, Mexico City, and Central America, but South America is only left implicit).

As a side note, I'm still working on the dissertation and my participation here will be spotty as usual. I apologize for drive-by posts.

[LeSellers]

quotes FAIR

Sorry, that doesn't work. BookofMormonLuvr said Brigham Young put people on the moon.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

And he placed people dressd like Quakers on the Moon.

Huh?!? CFR.

Lehi

[Sevenbak]

Sorry, that doesn't work. BookofMormonLuvr said Brigham Young put people on the moon.

Lehi

You didn't know about the launching pad behind the Beehive House? They ripped it out to build the COB.

[sethpayne]

This sounds more to me like South America than Mesoamerica. BY seems to say that you continue going past Central America (which is Mesoamerica) and continuing TO the land where the Nephites flourished.

Agreed. "... through Central America to ..."

[LeSellers]

And he placed people dressd like Quakers on the Moon.

Huh?!? CFR.

Lehi

[erichard]

Agreed. "... through Central America to ..."

right, the famous horseshoe prophecy.

Benjamin F. Johnson:

Before this the Prophet had foreshadowed the close of his own earthly mission, and the near approach of the time when the Saints in tribulation would find a place of refuge in the far- off valleys of the Rocky Mountains, which has already taken place; and also relating still to the future, when a path will be opened for the Saints through Mexico, South America, and to the center Stake of Zion.

[erichard]

Huh?!? CFR.

Lehi

http://spamldsarchive.blogspot.com/2010/05/brigham-young-joseph-smith-and-quakers.html