Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 The disingenuous abounding here astounds and disturbs me. What hold does Islam have on people? It is now no wonder to me that the world will accept th 12th Imam (anti-Christ) as their God.What are you talking about? I cetainly am one of the last that would be PC about the Islam faith. What I don;t like is mis-represneting someone's faith, as it happens to us quite a bit. If a Muslim was here what would he say? In some regards I am willing to bet that he would subscribe to something along the lines of Bill's post.
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 What are you talking about? I cetainly am one of the last that would be PC about the Islam faith. What I don;t like is mis-represneting someone's faith, as it happens to us quite a bit. If a Muslim was here what would he say? In some regards I am willing to bet that he would subscribe to something along the lines of Bill's post.Bill's post ssentially claims that the 12th Imam pays second fiddle to Jesus, which, from my understanding, that is the opposite of the truth. I am more then willing to be corrected.
Bill Hamblin Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 You clearly don't understand my post.I don't like being lied to. William Hamblin's post was clearly deceptive, because he understands the concept of Messiah from a Christian perspective. He was trying to do the ecumentical "Muslims are OK, they believe Jesus is the Messiah too. Don't worry about that 12th Imam stuff." I am fine hearing the Muslim perspective, if it is presented clearly that way. How does Jesus figure into the coming of the 12th Imam from a Muslim perspective? Let's examine that, and see if it jives with what Hamblin posted.It is rather annoying to be called a liar because you misunderstand my post, and misunderstand Islam. It may be true that your misunderstanding of my post doesn't correlate to your misunderstanding of Islam, but that is not my fault and doesn't make me a liar.Muslims believe (and the Qur'?n explicitly states, as has been noted) that Jesus in the biblical Messiah of the Jews, and fulfilled the biblical messianic prophecies. They do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, a God, or that he atoned for our sins. They are thus halfway between Christians (Messiah is the Son of God, Atoned for our sins) and the Jews (Jesus is not the Messiah in any way.)The Mahdi is not the Messiah. He is an eschatological figure who will fills a messiah-like role, destroying evil, fighting the anti-Christ, establishing the final perfect kingdom of God. He is to prepare the way for the second-coming of Jesus (who according to Muslims was not crucified or resurrected, but ascended into heaven). There are many different concepts of the Mahdi in Islam. The Twelfth Imam as occulted Mahdi is a peculiarly Twelver Shi'ite concept that is not accepted by Sunnis or non-Twelver Shi'ites.
Bill Hamblin Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Bill's post ssentially claims that the 12th Imam pays second fiddle to Jesus, which, from my understanding, that is the opposite of the truth. I am more then willing to be corrected.I said nothing of the sort. Here is what I said:Technically speaking, the Mahdi is not the Messiah, since Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah. The Mahdi could be considered messianic in the sense of an expected divinely sent eschatological agent, but this is in addition to Jesus the Messiah. I said nothing about "second fiddle" or the Twelfth Imam.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 There are many different concepts of the Mahdi in Islam. The Twelfth Imam as occulted Mahdi is a peculiarly Twelver Shi'ite concept that is not accepted by Sunnis or non-Twelver Shi'ites.Interesting. Thanks for the insight.
Bill Hamblin Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 The disingenuous abounding here astounds and disturbs me. What hold does Islam have on people? It is now no wonder to me that the world will accept th 12th Imam (anti-Christ) as their God.Islam has no hold on me, and I'm not being disingenuous. I'm simply trying to clarify what Muslims believe. Personally, I don't agree with them, but this does not justify misrepresenting their beliefs.At any rate, Twelver Shi'ites certainly don't believe the 12th Imam/Mahdi is the anti-Christ. For Muslims, the Mahdi comes to defeat the Muslim Anti-Christ (al-Dajj?l). The belief that 12th Imam/Mahdi is the Anti-Christ is an assumption by certain Evangelical eschatologists. There is nothing in the Bible to prove this claim. It is based on a complex web of assumptions, assertions, and flat-out misreadings of the Bible. The Evangelicals have for centuries been pointing to just about every conceivable world leader they dislike as the Anti-Christ (Popes, Muhammad, Russian leaders, etc.). So far, every one of their interpretations that can be tested have proven wrong. It's not a good track record. See McGinn, Antichrist, for a history of the idea.
bookofmormontruth Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Here is a scary example (in their own words and translated) of what some consider to be the Mahdi.
WalkerW Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 What hold does Islam have on people? Ironically, I think it has much more of a hold on you than Bill or I. You start spitting rhetoric about deception due to the swaying influence of Islam when it turns out that you just happen to be wrong on this matter (apparently out of disdain for some "hold" that Islam has on people).
zerinus Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 There was an interesting article on Drudge, found HERE. Essentially, it says that Iran is pushing the notion of the coming Islamic Messiah - Mahdi - who is to come and defeat non-Muslims, etc. First, is the article accurate in its understanding of the Mahdi? Second, and assuming it is, do the Islamic and Judeo/Christian prophecies necessarily come to a head; i.e. Armageddon, the battle of Gog and Magog, etc.? Does anyone have anything to say about whether these battles may be self-fulfilling, in that they purport diametriacally opposed goals? Is the Middle-East fundamentally an unstopable ticking time-bomb?PacManThis article I believe has the most accurate scholarly information on the Mahdi doctrine in Islam:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah#Islam
zerinus Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 I am fine hearing the Muslim perspective, if it is presented clearly that way. How does Jesus figure into the coming of the 12th Imam from a Muslim perspective? Let's examine that, and see if it jives with what Hamblin posted.It is only the Shiite sect of Islam (a minority sect) that identifies the Mahdi with the 12th Imam. The rest don't.
Cold Steel Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Technically speaking, the Mahdi is not the Messiah, since Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah. The Mahdi could be considered messianic in the sense of an expected divinely sent eschatological agent, but this is in addition to Jesus the Messiah.Although Muslims view Jesus as the Messiah, he is considered inferior in rank to the Mahdi. And the Mahdi is, as far as I know, limited to Shiite eschatology. There are numerous hadiths that relate to the coming of the Mahdi, but only recently has a wave of expectation swept through Iranian and other Shiite factions.After reading Joel Richardson's Islamic Anti-Christ, I believe Richardson has made an excellent case that there is a strong link between Shiite Islam and the Christian Antichrist. The apostle John warned us not only of an antichrist, but of a false prophet. In Shiite eschatology, the Mahdi will appear with Jesus Christ, who will tell Christians that they got it all wrong. That while he is the Messiah, there is only ONE God, and he has no Son. Further, that he wasn't really crucified, but was taken up into heaven like Elijah. He will do great miracles, he will destroy all the crosses, and he will replace the Gospel with Islam. Those who refuse to convert will be killed.Being a former evangelical, I'm familiar with LDS and evangelical eschatology. Richardson's book is very compatible with LDS eschatology. There's no rapture, no tribulation (outside of what we believe), and Richardson recognizes that the Bible pretty much has Jerusalem at the center of its prophecies. We LDS believe that while the Antichrist will likely dominate Europe, the Middle East and Asia, the United States, Mexico and Canada will be on their own. Of course, the Book of Mormon and the D&C fill in that area. And to what extent persecution exists in this hemisphere has not been revealed. We know the saints will gather into communities for safety while vast civil wars rage across the nation. But that's another story.I think Richardson reveals more about the Mahdi than any other Christian source. Lawrence Pipella has written a Kindle-only book entitled The Mahdi and appears to offer a somewhat different view. The book's description is as follows:The Mahdi, "The Expected One" represents the accumulation of events that had their beginning around 2000 B.C. during the time of Abraham. It is from this time the story unfolds. It is the start of two great peoples who through to the present day have become bitter enemies. Two brothers in competition for God
Bill Hamblin Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Although Muslims view Jesus as the Messiah, he is considered inferior in rank to the Mahdi. And the Mahdi is, as far as I know, limited to Shiite eschatology. There are numerous hadiths that relate to the coming of the Mahdi, but only recently has a wave of expectation swept through Iranian and other Shiite factions.After reading Joel Richardson's Islamic Anti-Christ, I believe Richardson has made an excellent case that there is a strong link between Shiite Islam and the Christian Antichrist. The apostle John warned us not only of an antichrist, but of a false prophet. In Shiite eschatology, the Mahdi will appear with Jesus Christ, who will tell Christians that they got it all wrong. That while he is the Messiah, there is only ONE God, and he has no Son. Further, that he wasn't really crucified, but was taken up into heaven like Elijah. He will do great miracles, he will destroy all the crosses, and he will replace the Gospel with Islam. Those who refuse to convert will be killed.Being a former evangelical, I'm familiar with LDS and evangelical eschatology. Richardson's book is very compatible with LDS eschatology. There's no rapture, no tribulation (outside of what we believe), and Richardson recognizes that the Bible pretty much has Jerusalem at the center of its prophecies. We LDS believe that while the Antichrist will likely dominate Europe, the Middle East and Asia, the United States, Mexico and Canada will be on their own. Of course, the Book of Mormon and the D&C fill in that area. And to what extent persecution exists in this hemisphere has not been revealed. We know the saints will gather into communities for safety while vast civil wars rage across the nation. But that's another story.I think Richardson reveals more about the Mahdi than any other Christian source. Lawrence Pipella has written a Kindle-only book entitled The Mahdi and appears to offer a somewhat different view. The book's description is as follows:The Mahdi, "The Expected One" represents the accumulation of events that had their beginning around 2000 B.C. during the time of Abraham. It is from this time the story unfolds. It is the start of two great peoples who through to the present day have become bitter enemies. Two brothers in competition for God
David Bokovoy Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 I have lost a great deal of respect for him.So have I! Next thing you know Dr. Hamblin will be suggesting that Israelite priests were messiahs and from there, who know where he'll stop! Maybe even kings, and prophets were christs! Dang you Bill Hamblin! Will the madness ever cease!
The Nehor Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 About this guy:"He's not the Messiah; he's a very naughty boy."
Bill Hamblin Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Dang you Bill Hamblin! Will the madness ever cease!NEVER!!
Bill Hamblin Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 ARTHUR: Hail Messiah!BRIAN: I'm not the Messiah!ARTHUR: I say You are, Lord, and I should know. I've followed a few.FOLLOWERS: Hail Messiah!BRIAN: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand?! Honestly!GIRL: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.BRIAN: What?! Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!FOLLOWERS: He is! He is the Messiah!
David Bokovoy Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 ARTHUR: Hail Messiah!BRIAN: I'm not the Messiah!ARTHUR: I say You are, Lord, and I should know. I've followed a few.FOLLOWERS: Hail Messiah!BRIAN: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand?! Honestly!GIRL: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.BRIAN: What?! Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!FOLLOWERS: He is! He is the Messiah!That may be the funniest thing I have ever read.
volgadon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 That may be the funniest thing I have ever read.At one point I had most of the movie memorised. Eminently quotable. -@!#%&$#!^* off! -How shall we @!#%&$#!^* off, lord?
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 So have I! Next thing you know Dr. Hamblin will be suggesting that Israelite priests were messiahs and from there, who know where he'll stop! Maybe even kings, and prophets were christs! Dang you Bill Hamblin! Will the madness ever cease!Fools mock. When Hamblin suggests that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not a Messiah he is committing a fraud. All this effort to hold Islam in high-esteem will backfire to your own detriment...Isaiah 5:2020
BookofMormonLuvr Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Oh, and comparing Mohammed to God's ancient High Priests is revoluting.Fin.
volgadon Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Fools mock. When Hamblin suggests that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not a Messiah he is committing a fraud. All this effort to hold Islam in high-esteem will backfire to your own detriment...In Islam Jesus is THE Messiah, what the title messiah means in Islam is not the same as what it means to Christians of an evangelical bent.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 In Islam Jesus is THE Messiah, what the title messiah means in Islam is not the same as what it means to Christians of an evangelical bent.You would think that some people could pick up on this.
Bill Hamblin Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Fools mock. When Hamblin suggests that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah, not a Messiah he is committing a fraud. All this effort to hold Islam in high-esteem will backfire to your own detriment...Well, I can tell this is getting nowhere. At any rate, the Qur'?n calls Jesus al-Mas?h = the Messiah. This is the same term Arab Christians use for Jesus the Messiah. (One of my Arabic teachers, a Coptic Christian, was named Abdelmasih = Worshipper of the Messiah. It is a common Egyptian Christian name.) As far as I am aware, no other person in the Islamic tradition is called Mas?h. Mentioning is not an effort on my part to "hold Islam in high-esteem." It is simply an attempt to provide an accurate explanation of what Muslims believe. It is by no means clear to me why this seems problematic to you. But there is obviously no point in further discussion.
kolipoki09 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 In Islam Jesus is THE Messiah, what the title messiah means in Islam is not the same as what it means to Christians of an evangelical bent.Or evidently, to Christians of the ex-Mormon fundamentalist RLDS bent.
TAO Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 BoML, you should talk with a moderate Muslim here from the US before making statements like that, that you should.I can assure you my friend Mumin believes that Jesus is the Messiah. As well as many other things. Indeed, I think it is better to ask someone of the religion then it is to presuppose, that I do. And it is also good to ask someone who is rather moderate in terms of it imo.Best Wishes,TAO
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