Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet

[Jeff K.]

A talk given by Ezra Taft Benson he produced an interesting talk dealing with the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet. It was printed in the Liahona June 1981. The talk was given in 1980.

The 14 points are as follows:

1-The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2-The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4-The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.

6-The prophet does not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord", to give us scripture

7-The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8-The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

9-The prophet can recieve revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10-The prophet may advise on civic matter.

11-The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned, and the proud who are rich.

12-The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13-The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency-the highest quorum in the Church

14-The prophet and the presidency - the living prophet and the First Presidency - follow them and be blessed - reject them and suffer.

Each point is discussed Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet

Often when members complain about the chuch (often bitterly) they break a multiplicity of these rules. My question is should these rules apply? Which rules should not apply and why? I think if we applied these rules, there would be significantly few posts targeted at the church by members. The question of whether or not such is justified remains open.

[kolipoki09]

3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Until President Monson publicly endorses Benson's statements (which he never has, to my knowledge), I think principle three suggests that we shouldn't take the 14 Fundamentals as doctrine.

[Jeff K.]

It isn't a question of doctrine, nor am I saying it is doctrine. But I wonder why you believe we should "not" use them as guides when dealing with the church. I note in the talks by the way that he uses doctrine to support the ideas he presents, as well as anecdotes from prophets that support his position.

[cinepro]

Until President Monson publicly endorses Benson's statements (which he never has, to my knowledge), I think principle three suggests that we shouldn't take the 14 Fundamentals as doctrine.

You're misreading it (unless you're joking, but just in case).

Obviously, a Prophet's words don't expire upon his death. If that were the case, each new prophet would need to restate all previous doctrine immediately upon his assumption of the office. The point of Fundamental #3 is that if there is a contradiction between the words of a current living Prophet and the words of a dead Prophet, the words of the living one automatically trump the words of the dead prophet.

Until that time, the teachings of the dead Prophet stand.

[Ariarates]

A rerun of this talk made it through correlation last General Conference (or was it the one before that, can't remember exactly) so I guess the principles still apply.

[kolipoki09]

You're misreading it (unless you're joking, but just in case).

Obviously, a Prophet's words don't expire upon his death. If that were the case, each new prophet would need to restate all previous doctrine immediately upon his assumption of the office. The point of Fundamental #3 is that if there is a contradiction between the words of a current living Prophet and the words of a dead Prophet, the words of the living one automatically trump the words of the dead prophet.

Until that time, the teachings of the dead Prophet stand.

I'm joking. I saw someone bring it up a while back. I was hoping someone would remember.

[thesometimesaint]

Some have promulgated these ideas of ETB as doctrine. I disagree.

[daz2]

The fourteen points were repeated last conference in two talks by two members of the 70, Elders Costa and Duncan.

It is a mystery to me why so many people think Mormonism encourages members to unquestioningly obey its leaders. Or why others say that Catholicism teaches that the Pope can be infallible, but no Catholic believes that, and that Mormonism teaches that the Prophet can be fallible, but no true Mormon believes it.

[Senator]

My gut tells me, that it is very dangerous to endow any human being with such position, with such power.

[Jeff K.]

Your gut must be a cornucopia of faith in the Lord and his servants.

[Jeff K.]

I do not see anything that states we should believe every word unquestioningly. But I do believe we should pay additional and profound attention to what the prophet states.

Specifically which of the 14 points do you question and why?

[Senator]

Your gut must be a cornucopia of faith in the Lord and his servants.

You asked a question; I gave a simple and honest answer.

Did I mock your question?

Why do you mock my answer?

[LDS Guy 1986]

A talk given by Ezra Taft Benson he produced an interesting talk dealing with the 14 fundamentals of following the prophet. It was printed in the Liahona June 1981. The talk was given in 1980.

The 14 points are as follows:

1-The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2-The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4-The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.

6-The prophet does not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord", to give us scripture

7-The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8-The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

9-The prophet can recieve revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10-The prophet may advise on civic matter.

11-The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned, and the proud who are rich.

12-The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13-The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency-the highest quorum in the Church

14-The prophet and the presidency - the living prophet and the First Presidency - follow them and be blessed - reject them and suffer.

Each point is discussed Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet

Often when members complain about the chuch (often bitterly) they break a multiplicity of these rules. My question is should these rules apply? Which rules should not apply and why? I think if we applied these rules, there would be significantly few posts targeted at the church by members. The question of whether or not such is justified remains open.

All the rules apply at all times, unless via the third rule the Living Prophet declares any or all of these rules obsolete or makes changes to them. When the Lord reveals his truth through his servants the prophets they are not temporary unless the Lord declares it so, until we are told otherwise the inspired words of the prophets are the commandments of God in full effect until changed or removed by the proper authority, which only lies with the Apostles.

[semlogo]

I think they represent a certain viewpoint, but I don't think they're the final word.

[consiglieri]

I think President Benson's list describes an extreme position of Mormonism that he sought to make mainstream.

To the extent it was repeated last Conference not once, but twice, I think he may be getting his wish.

I, however, remain resistant to the idea of giving one human being absolute power in all his utterances, and I remain skeptical that this is the way the Lord would have it.

I believe God is supreme, not his prophet.

When God speaks through his prophet, I should obey.

But it appears President Benson thinks a prophet is always a prophet, contra Joseph Smith.

If the list contained a Number 15--Prophets can make mistakes the same as anybody, I would wholeheartedly endorse the list in its entirety.

Until such time, the list smacks of a coup d'etat to rob Church members of the power God bestowed upon them in the revelations given through Joseph Smith.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think President Benson's list describes an extreme position of Mormonism that he sought to make mainstream.

To the extent it was repeated last Conference not once, but twice, I think he may be getting his wish.

I, however, remain resistant to the idea of giving one human being absolute power in all his utterances, and I remain skeptical that this is the way the Lord would have it.

I believe God is supreme, not his prophet.

When God speaks through his prophet, I should obey.

But it appears President Benson thinks a prophet is always a prophet, contra Joseph Smith.

If the list contained a Number 15--Prophets can make mistakes the same as anybody, I would wholeheartedly endorse the list in its entirety.

Until such time, the list smacks of a coup d'etat to rob Church members of the power God bestowed upon them in the revelations given through Joseph Smith.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Well seeing that he says that a living prophet is more important than a dead prophet, he makes that implication that prophets make mistakes hence the need for other prophets to come along and fix some of the mistakes.

One has to trust that the Lord will not allow his prophet to lead us into temptation, that even if he makes mistakes that he is still leading towards the Lord instead of away from the Lord.

It is one thing to know that all men are imperfect, but if one doubts every word that comes out of the prophets mouth and is critical of every doctrine, that is a much quicker way to spiritual darkness than to accept the doctrine of the prophet as inspired of God even with there flaws and imperfections and to have faith that the prophet will not lead us off the straight and narrow path.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

Number 5 is problematic for me.

Say you have a heart valve problem. Is the first thing you do is grab a sharp knife and tell Thomas S. Monson to operate on you. I wouldn't.

Say there is something wrong with your cars engine. Is the first thing you do is take your car to Thomas S. Monson for him to repair. I don't.

The list is endless of things that our beloved prophet is not trained to do. That doesn't mean he is not a good man, or that if I need spiritual advice I don't look to the prophets(Both ancient and modern) for that advice. But if I need to know about nuclear physics, to how to repair my car I go to people who know what they are doing and not necessarily to the Prophet of my Church.

Number 6 violates the "Common Consent" Church law that have been in place from the beginnings of the Church.

Number 8 Within his limited scope of knowledge he can(and should) speak to what he knows. Outside of that area his is just one man entitled to his own ideas and opinions. IE; Man will never be on the moon. Plus TTBOM no latter day prophets have directly contradicted the Bible claim that Pi does exactly equal 3.

Number 9 is covered in number 8.

Number 10. He is entitled to his own opinions just as I am entitled to my own opinions regarding civic matters. I vote for people whom I believe will best serve the interests of me, and my community. I really don't need ETB telling me how to vote.

Number 14 is as condescending as it is possible to get.

Number

[consiglieri]

Number 14 is as condescending as it is possible to get.

No kidding, man.

Church History is replete with instances of members who suffered precisely because they did follow the prophet.

There is also the unstated assertion that just because you might not believe something the living prophet says, you are "rejecting" him.

I do not agree this is necessarily so.

(But there I go "rejecting" the prophet by not believing something he said . . . )

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Well seeing that he says that a living prophet is more important than a dead prophet, he makes that implication that prophets make mistakes hence the need for other prophets to come along and fix some of the mistakes.

I see what you are saying, LDS Guy.

But if the implication is that dead prophets can make mistakes, it must necessarily follow that living prophets can also make mistakes, which instantly undermines most of the list.

I believe President Benson's list may be as internally self-contradictory as the Nicene Creed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jeff K.]

I think President Benson's list describes an extreme position of Mormonism that he sought to make mainstream.

To the extent it was repeated last Conference not once, but twice, I think he may be getting his wish.

I, however, remain resistant to the idea of giving one human being absolute power in all his utterances, and I remain skeptical that this is the way the Lord would have it.

I believe God is supreme, not his prophet.

When God speaks through his prophet, I should obey.

But it appears President Benson thinks a prophet is always a prophet, contra Joseph Smith.

If the list contained a Number 15--Prophets can make mistakes the same as anybody, I would wholeheartedly endorse the list in its entirety.

Until such time, the list smacks of a coup d'etat to rob Church members of the power God bestowed upon them in the revelations given through Joseph Smith.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The question then appears to be whether or not the 14 points give a prophet absolute power. Which ones would give such power to a prophet?

1-The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Is there something in which the prophet cannot speak for the Lord?

2-The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

This would seem obvious given the failure of say the Bible in uniting Christianity. Also the standard works do not give authority for baptism, or temple work. A prophet and the apostles hold those keys.

3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Again, it appears obvious, is there doubt about that?

4-The prophet will never lead the church astray.

From the Doctrine and Covenants, OD1...

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

This appears to be doctrine if I am not mistaken.

5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.

Now that is encouraging if you ask me though some who may take their degrees too seriously may view it as allowing the unwashed to counter their claims based on their logic, of course no one does that here. .

Skipping a bit

8-The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

This seems obvious. There was a time when the Word of Wisdom was counterintuitive, so too for other moving to the Salt Lake Basin instead of CA, and so on... Reasoning of man alone is not really something God cares about. It makes us great tool users, but doesn't necessarily increase out spirituality.

9-The prophet can recieve revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10-The prophet may advise on civic matter.

In my view these two should be together. They are obvious and those who want the church to "shut up" in regard to gay marriage and/or immigration (depending on which side of the aisle you are on) and other issues should note that prophets have always spoken on temporal issues, even as Samual annointed Saul and then later David.

11-The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned, and the proud who are rich.

We see that alot here in the forum in different manifestations.

12-The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly

Or with members sometimes.

There is nothing here that says the prophet cannot be wrong in policy, but certainly something that reflects the prophet cannot be wrong in doctrine.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I believe President Benson's list may be as internally self-contradictory as the Nicene Creed.

Just about everything done by the hands of man though can be seen as self-contradicting if you seek to find it so.

I think this month's First Presidency Message comments on this very well: http://lds.org/liahona/2011/03/looking-for-the-good?lang=eng

[Jeff K.]

I see what you are saying, LDS Guy.

But if the implication is that dead prophets can make mistakes, it must necessarily follow that living prophets can also make mistakes, which instantly undermines most of the list.

I believe President Benson's list may be as internally self-contradictory as the Nicene Creed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I haven't seen that since inerrancy is not part of the list in regard to non doctrinal issues. Was there a time when we followed the prophet and were not blessed? Going to Utah territory for instance. is leaving the east for a relatively desolate region an obvious choice which following the prophet had dire consequences?

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

But that isn't the claim of points 5,6, and 8. It is ETB's claim to infallibility of the prophet in nonspiritual areas that IS the problem.

[LDS Guy 1986]

I haven't seen that since inerrancy is not part of the list in regard to non doctrinal issues. Was there a time when we followed the prophet and were not blessed? Going to Utah territory for instance. is leaving the east for a relatively desolate region an obvious choice which following the prophet had dire consequences?

One could argue that Polygamy and the Priesthood Ban were not blessings but a curse for following the prophet.

I think that this is not the case, since in both cases the Church obeyed and was strengthened ultimately and continued to grow during and after these doctrine.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I haven't seen that since inerrancy is not part of the list in regard to non doctrinal issues. Was there a time when we followed the prophet and were not blessed? Going to Utah territory for instance. is leaving the east for a relatively desolate region an obvious choice which following the prophet had dire consequences?

The Zoramites were a properous people after leaving the Nephites, you don't accept their claims as being the chosen people of God- do you?