LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:But that isn't the claim of points 5,6, and 8. It is ETB's claim to infallibility of the prophet in nonspiritual areas that IS the problem.Please tell me where President Benson has ever claimed that that any prophet is infallible? This is prime example of looking for the negative that President Uchtdorf talked about in this months Ensign. You are looking for the genitive here and are drawing conclusions from the talk that are not there to support you.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:But that isn't the claim of points 5,6, and 8. It is ETB's claim to infallibility of the prophet in nonspiritual areas that IS the problem.If the Lord speaks to the prophet regarding non spiritual areas, then should there be a question of infallibility?I think the answer is more nuanced in when the prophet is speaking for the Lord or dispensing some very good (or bad) advice. We can see that the Lord has indeed acted through prophets in non spiritual matters before.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 One could argue that Polygamy and the Priesthood Ban were not blessings but a curse for following the prophet. I think that this is not the case, since in both cases the Church obeyed and was strengthened ultimately and continued to grow during and after these doctrine.I agree, sometimes its not obvious at the time, or even in that generation, but much more so later with hindsight. One could even call it counterintuitive.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K., on 28 March 2011 - 10:04 AM, said:I haven't seen that since inerrancy is not part of the list in regard to non doctrinal issues. Was there a time when we followed the prophet and were not blessed? Going to Utah territory for instance. is leaving the east for a relatively desolate region an obvious choice which following the prophet had dire consequences?The Zoramites were a properous people after leaving the Nephites, you don't accept their claims as being the chosen people of God- do you?See number 11
mercyngrace Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 But if the implication is that dead prophets can make mistakes, it must necessarily follow that living prophets can also make mistakes, which instantly undermines most of the list.I believe President Benson's list may be as internally self-contradictory as the Nicene Creed. All the Best!--ConsiglieriI absolutely agree with this.Why bother listening to the next dead prophet? Can I just skip ahead and pick an apostle that I like better? After all, his turn is coming...If we disregard dead prophets and apologize for their 'personal opinions' how can we trust that the living prophet isn't just uttering a personal opinion that will one day be recognized as such?Makes no sense to me.
Senator Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 Please tell me where President Benson has ever claimed that that any prophet is infallible? 1-The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.2-The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.4-The prophet will never lead the church astray.5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.6-The prophet does not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord", to give us scripture7-The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.8-The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.9-The prophet can recieve revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.10-The prophet may advise on civic matter.11-The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned, and the proud who are rich.12-The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.13-The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency-the highest quorum in the Church14-The prophet and the presidency - the living prophet and the First Presidency - follow them and be blessed - reject them and suffer.ETBI can't show you were he ever used the word "infallible", but the above list is a strong indication to me that he was headed in that direction.
thesometimesaint Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:Of course the prophet can personally speak to anything his heart desires. I'm not saying that he can't. But his opinions are just his opinions. We did go to the moon after all, and man made satellites have left this solar system. You might say he spoke presumptuously.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 I can't show you were he ever used the word "infallible", but the above list is a strong indication to me that he was headed in that direction.So what you are saying is that President Benson never said anything at all about infallible prophets, simply that your personal bias has led you to take the words of President Beson and twist them to say something they don't after the man has passed away so he cannot defend himself.The sad part is even with this load of baloney you can't even get what Pres. Benson said to support that junk. If he was implying that a prophet was infallible then why does the words of the current prophet are more important the dead prophets? If the previous prophets were infallible then the living prophet would have no need to change anything. Now what President Benson did say was that the Living Prophet is the most important person to us staying on the course to eternal life, that his council is more important than any previous council from the scriptures or the previous prophets. The reason for this is that the Living Prophet receives the will of the Lord for us in our day, not the will of the lord for our ancestors in their day. Since prophet's are men that can make mistakes the living prophet has the authority to change or disregard the council of previous prophets because he is the one who receives revelations for us at this time. Stop twisting truth to make this junk seem reasonable, ETB never said anything to the effect that any prophet living or dead (except Christ) was infallible. What he said is we need to put our faith in our living prophet instead of relying upon the words of the dead prophets, since those prophets are not here now to guide us anymore.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 I absolutely agree with this.Why bother listening to the next dead prophet? Can I just skip ahead and pick an apostle that I like better? After all, his turn is coming...If we disregard dead prophets and apologize for their 'personal opinions' how can we trust that the living prophet isn't just uttering a personal opinion that will one day be recognized as such?Makes no sense to me. You read what isn't there. No one said to disregard prophets from past times, rather that present prophets are the ones who lead us.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 1-The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.2-The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.4-The prophet will never lead the church astray.5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.6-The prophet does not have to say "Thus Saith the Lord", to give us scripture7-The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.8-The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.9-The prophet can recieve revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.10-The prophet may advise on civic matter.11-The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned, and the proud who are rich.12-The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.13-The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency-the highest quorum in the Church14-The prophet and the presidency - the living prophet and the First Presidency - follow them and be blessed - reject them and suffer.ETBI can't show you were he ever used the word "infallible", but the above list is a strong indication to me that he was headed in that direction.All you have shown is how you interpret listening to the prophet to be equal to infallible. It seems to me that you are projecting a desire to limit prophets to the level of advisors with no real authority to speak for God except in the most remote and abstract sense. It works for Catholics to a degree, but not for Mormons.
zelder Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:Of course the prophet can personally speak to anything his heart desires. I'm not saying that he can't. But his opinions are just his opinions. We did go to the moon after all, and man made satellites have left this solar system. You might say he spoke presumptuously.When a prophet says its just his opinion then you take it as such but when he is speaking from the pulpit then maybe its not just his opinion. We didn't go to the moon after all. The apollo moon landings were all fraud. If you had more faith in the prophet maybe you would wake up to a sense of our awful situation. Maybe you could begin to see things as they really are.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:Of course the prophet can personally speak to anything his heart desires. I'm not saying that he can't. But his opinions are just his opinions. We did go to the moon after all, and man made satellites have left this solar system. You might say he spoke presumptuously.And none of those things are doctrine either. Nor do I think there was any real effect in the church regarding those items. Wouldn't that make it non sequitur?
thesometimesaint Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:Unfortunately ETB did not limit to just matters of the Spirit, or of Church doctrine. 5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.
thesometimesaint Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 zelder:I don't know if you are being serious or not?
mercyngrace Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 You read what isn't there. No one said to disregard prophets from past times, rather that present prophets are the ones who lead us.3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.In what case would this matter? To my understanding, the only time this is relevant is if a current prophet contradicts a past prophet as in "I don't know that we really teach it" or "
consiglieri Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 You read what isn't there. No one said to disregard prophets from past times, rather that present prophets are the ones who lead us.If that is what President Benson meant, why isn't that what President Benson said?All the Best!--Consiglieri
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:Unfortunately ETB did not limit to just matters of the Spirit, or of Church doctrine. 5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.I guess the question is, why should he?What earthly credentials did Joseph Smith have to start Nauvoo or Kirtland, or the church for that matter. Or Brigham Young in regards to Salt Lake? Or perhpas Samuel in choosing Saul to be King?
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff K.:Unfortunately ETB did not limit to just matters of the Spirit, or of Church doctrine. 5-The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act in any matter in any time.Why does the idea that id God can reveal spiritual things to a prophet not get you upset, do you suddenly take offense at God revealing scientific things to a prophet?This section about not needing earthly training to speak on a temporal subject, is still subject to the revisions of latter prophets. At one time Brigham Young taught that the moon and sun was inhabited, later prophets disregarded that because they understood that the prophet didn't have sufficient understanding at that time and they had received better knowledge through God. What boggles my mind is that you appear to only have a problem with God revealing scientific things to his prophets. What do you feel that God needs to limit his revelations to his prophets only to spiritual matters?Can't God reveal what he desires, and allow his prophets to reveal what he desires about any subject?If thing are not the most correct (priesthood ban for example) God will have his prophet change that thing when the time is right.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 If that is what President Benson meant, why isn't that what President Benson said?All the Best!--ConsiglieriHe did say it. It is imbedded in who we are as Latter-Day Saints, and generally Saints are aware of it. Some though may quibble and state he wasn't clear enough, but then there will always be that group whose intellectual prowess and credentials make them far superior in interpreting scripture and gospel knowledge than the mere uncredentialed.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 If that is what President Benson meant, why isn't that what President Benson said?All the Best!--ConsiglieriNo he said that the living prophets were more important to us that dead prophets. If they are still using the teachings of the previous prophets than those prophets have become there teachings also and are still important to us.Pres. Benson never said nor did he ever imply that as soon a prophet dies all his teachings were useless, if this was the case then why do we have the Standard Works at all, those are all the teachings of dead prophets. But the Church does still have the Standard Works because the absurd and extreme interpretation some make about a simple and clear statement is completely wrong.
Jeff K. Posted March 28, 2011 Author Posted March 28, 2011 3-The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.In what case would this matter? To my understanding, the only time this is relevant is if a current prophet contradicts a past prophet as in "I don't know that we really teach it" or "
Senator Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 So what you are saying is that President Benson never said anything at all about infallible prophets, simply that your personal bias has led you to take the words of President Beson and twist them to say something they don't after the man has passed away so he cannot defend himself.The sad part is even with this load of baloney you can't even get what Pres. Benson said to support that junk. If he was implying that a prophet was infallible then why does the words of the current prophet are more important the dead prophets? If the previous prophets were infallible then the living prophet would have no need to change anything. You sure get defensive quickly.Frankly, upon further thought; given the ultimatum drawn in the sand with final point #14, I think the question of infallibility is rendered rather moot. I doesn't matter if he's fallible or not!
Senator Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 All you have shown is how you interpret listening to the prophet to be equal to infallible. It seems to me that you are projecting a desire to limit prophets to the level of advisors with no real authority to speak for God except in the most remote and abstract sense. It works for Catholics to a degree, but not for Mormons.Ok...How you extracted that from what I said is beyond me.
thesometimesaint Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 LDS Guy 1986:I personally don't believe in the infallibility of any mortal, and mortals like us have been making claims about the earth/universe for a long time now. Some have been shown to be correct, a great many have been shown to be incorrect or at least unsubstantiated. I have no problem with God or science. I do have a great many problems with mortals, like ourselves, making claims about the physical world that are incorrect. I have a huge problem with claims that God told some Prophet/Pope/Minister that "X" is fact and that gives them the right to make me suffer.
LDS Guy 1986 Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 LDS Guy 1986:I personally don't believe in the infallibility of any mortal, and mortals like us have been making claims about the earth/universe for a long time now. Some have been shown to be correct, a great many have been shown to be incorrect or at least unsubstantiated. I have no problem with God or science. I do have a great many problems with mortals, like ourselves, making claims about the physical world that are incorrect. I have a huge problem with claims that God told some Prophet/Pope/Minister that "X" is fact and that gives them the right make me suffer.How is President Benson making you suffer he passed away years ago?How is President Thomas S. Monson making you suffer?Your statements make absolutely no sense to me at all, who is making you suffer?
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