A hell within Celestial Glory?

[LDS Guy 1986]

You are welcome to your views, but LDS doctrine is determined by the revealed word of God, not by somebody's declarative assertations. You can shout what you will, but it won't make it true LDS doctrine, or supplant what God has revealed in the standard works.

You are correct if I was making this stuff up I would have no leg to stand on, but this isn't my creation it is the revealed will of the Lord through his servants the Prophets. No where in the Church is it taught that people go to Outer Darkness for committing sins or that people who never had the proper ordinances performed are allowed into paradise.

Outer Darkness is reserved for Lucifer, his angels, and the Sons (and I assume Daughters) of Perdition, those who altogether rejected God by committing the unforgivable sins.

I presented official statements from lds.org to refute your position, you haven't addressed this yet.

So can you address how the official doctrine of the Church as retrieved from lds.org is incorrect in regards to Outer Darkness and Paradise?

[DH]

What do you think?

What do I think? I think it's a pile of horse droppings. The guy doesn't have the foggiest idea what he's talking about.

The degrees of glory are just that, degrees of GLORY. Not degrees of hell. God is good. He is kind, merciful, and full of lovingkindness. The Psalmist had it right: "I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness," "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand" (Ps. 84:10).

[LDS Guy 1986]

LDSguy, I read what you had posted from the GA wrong, about entering the Celestial Kingdom.

However, apart from who gets in and what conditions, I still think that people use the term "hell" in reference to a Kingdom of Glory, do not know what they are talking about; especially in reference to the Celestial Kingdom, where God and Christ dwell and a person is worthy to be there.

It seem utterly ridiculous to say that someone in the Celestial Kingdom is in "hell" experiencing "hell" or a "type of hell".

They way the Elder explained it, to be a ministering angel is to spend forever in the presence of God, serving God and knowing that you had the opportunity and ability to become a God. This guilt of knowing what you could of achieved is a state of hell, it is not a literal hell, it is not a punishment from God. He rewarded you justly according to his mercy and your works, but the knowledge that you could of been a God and had your own spirit children had you only had but a little more faith is in and of itself a great personal torment.

You are right there is no hell in any Kingdom of Heaven, there isn't any Hell in Outer Darkness either, there is no lake of fire or any such symbolic biblical reference taken way too literally by some doom and groomers. What there is though is personal guilt for a lack of progression due to a lack of trust in Heavenly Father's plans for us in pre mortal life.

Remember we all knew the plan of salvation before we passed into mortality and the veil was put over our memories of premortal life. To live with the knowledge of our potential and how we failed to achieve it because we lacked the faith and devotion to do what was needed is a great guilt to carry, it is not a punishment, it is not a physical hell, but it is a type of hell, to have to face for eternity what we could of became what God wanted for us to become, yet we failed to achieve through our lack of faith in the plan of salvation.

[LDS Guy 1986]

What do I think? I think it's a pile of horse droppings. The guy doesn't have the foggiest idea what he's talking about.

The degrees of glory are just that, degrees of GLORY. Not degrees of hell. God is good. He is kind, merciful, and full of lovingkindness. The Psalmist had it right: "I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness," "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand" (Ps. 84:10).

I believe he is right 1,000% I would much rather be a doorkeeper at the Temple (the house of my God) than to dwell in the tents of the wicked. For a day in thy courts (the temple) is better than a thousand (years) elsewhere.

I don't think this verse is talking about the celestial kingdom, it was David talking about the temple, IMO.

[CV75]

It seem utterly ridiculous to say that someone in the Celestial Kingdom is in "hell" experiencing "hell" or a "type of hell".

It does, on the surface, but I can see how someone in the lower degree of the Celestial Kingdom can regret not having sufficiently exercised sufficient faith to enter into the highest degree. Also, a stoppage of progression into the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is a form of damnation, and therefore a form of hell. Not in terms we typically think of it, but I think it is a reasonable way to look at things. In this case I think the preception is relative to where one is standing. While some see the Telestial Kingdom as so wonderful we would happily die now to get there; some might see that exaltation is so great that anything less is hell in comparison, holding far higher aspirations (faith) and expectations (hope) in being One with Christ (charity).

[CV75]

The degrees of glory are just that, degrees of GLORY. Not degrees of hell.

I think this is why we spend so much time talking about they whys, whats and hows of exaltation; anything less is not a goal for the covenant-keeping Latter-day Saint. But my post immediately above shows how such a person might find a lower degree in the celestial Kingdom unappealing, and a kind of "hell."

[Alan]

So tonight was our Stake Conference and we have Elder Andersen of the Second Quorum of the Seventy presiding. He decided that he wanted to open the floor for questions regarding salvation, the first question was what is paradise?

Elder Andersen invited the Temple President to give his perspective on the matter, and then offered his own. He talked about how Paradise in the spirit world is the place where those who have accepted the Gospel, at least had baptisms and the gift of the holy ghost, and endured to the end reside until the day of judgement. That he's people are there to serve the people in prison and help them accept the Gospel and through proxy work be able to enter into paradise as well.

He also went on to speak of exaltation and the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom, he said that for those who become the ministering angels in the Celestial Kingdom (those who were never sealed and/or endowed) that this level of Celestial Kingdom is hell for them, that having to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom without the ability to have spirit children is it own kind of hell.

I thought this was a very interesting perspective.

What do you think?

I think Elder Andersen is talking nonsense.

[LDS Guy 1986]

We're all given the light of Christ. I think it's fair to hold people accountable to a lot of moral truths that are found outside of Mormonism as well as inside it.

But the light is not strong for everyone, there is various degrees of understanding, some have no light at all since they have no understanding of right and wrong.

God doesn't hold people accountable to man's morals but his own, we are taught in the church that those who lived without the law shall not be judged by the law. This is the doctrinal basis behind ordinances for the dead, that since the lived without the law there whole life they can accept the law (the Restored Gospel) in the after life and accept proxy ordinances done on there behalf just as they would of done in there life should they of been permitted to tarry longer.

With your idea that the light of Christ give's us sufficient understanding to be judged by the full weight of the Celestial Law and face eternal punishment for not meeting a law that someone had no knowledge of is not in compliance with the teachings of the Church.

All who walked this Earth (with the exception of those few Sons of Perdition who committed the unforgivable sins) will be saved by the atonement of Christ and inherit some Kingdom of Glory, what Kingdom is dependent of our works in this life and the spirit world.

[DH]

I think this is why we spend so much time talking about they whys, whats and hows of exaltation; anything less is not a goal for the covenant-keeping Latter-day Saint. But my post immediately above shows how such a person might find a lower degree in the celestial Kingdom unappealing, and a kind of "hell."

I still say it's hogwash. The CK is not hell. Period.

[zerinus]

You are correct if I was making this stuff up I would have no leg to stand on, but this isn't my creation it is the revealed will of the Lord through his servants the Prophets. No where in the Church is it taught that people go to Outer Darkness for committing sins or that people who never had the proper ordinances performed are allowed into paradise.

Whether you make stuff up yourself, or follow somebody else who has made stuff up, it is the same. Blindly following what you find in the Church

[mbh26]

But the light is not strong for everyone, there is various degrees of understanding, some have no light at all since they have no understanding of right and wrong.

None at all huh? Zero? I think even animals have more knowledge of right and wrong than zero. And I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that most people don't know right from wrong because they don't want to know. That carries an element of responsibility as well IMHO.

With your idea that the light of Christ give's us sufficient understanding to be judged by the full weight of the Celestial Law and face eternal punishment for not meeting a law that someone had no knowledge of is not in compliance with the teachings of the Church.

I didn't say to be judged with the full weight of the law. I'm just saying that nearly all people have more moral knowledge available to them than I've been lead to believe in the past.

[SkepticTheist]

There is no reason that atheists in the spirit world would believe in God just because they are dead. Just having a spirit means that they are forced to admit the existence of an afterlife. They would formulate their own rationalist theories there to account for it, and then they would still deny a God. Then if they can't deny a God, they would just deny his authority. It all comes down to a fundamental denialism of whatever they can get away with dening until they are forced to admit something.

1. Do you believe that if someone has an oppurtunity to marry in this life but rejects it that they will be judged and found unworthy of marriage henceforth and forever? Only if in their set of circumstances (testing) this makes them unable to repent or progress.

2. How often do you think the Lord will render this judgment of permanent condemnation? How permanent is it? As permanent as their inability to repent or progress.

3. What good purpose does this type of policy serve? The preservation of agency, which is the full expression of existence.

4. When you die, do you retain any knowledge of your life here on earth? Yes.

5. Wouldn't just knowing that you still exist after death change peoples attitudes and views immensely? Yes.

6. Will there be atheists in the spirit world? Yes, atheists in practice, if no other kind.

7. Are there spiritual identical twins? This is a good argument for explaining why we are not in a position to judge anyone but ourselves.

[SkepticTheist]

While I agree with the doctrine you present here, just because a seventy says it and you can give authoritative quotes means it is "authoritative" as far as that goes, but it is far from being "official Church doctrine."

You are correct if I was making this stuff up I would have no leg to stand on, but this isn't my creation it is the revealed will of the Lord through his servants the Prophets. No where in the Church is it taught that people go to Outer Darkness for committing sins or that people who never had the proper ordinances performed are allowed into paradise.

Outer Darkness is reserved for Lucifer, his angels, and the Sons (and I assume Daughters) of Perdition, those who altogether rejected God by committing the unforgivable sins.

I presented official statements from lds.org to refute your position, you haven't addressed this yet.

So can you address how the official doctrine of the Church as retrieved from lds.org is incorrect in regards to Outer Darkness and Paradise?

[CV75]

There is no reason that atheists in the spirit world would believe in God just because they are dead. Just having a spirit means that they are forced to admit the existence of an afterlife. They would formulate their own rationalist theories there to account for it, and then they would still deny a God. Then if they can't deny a God, they would just deny his authority. It all comes down to a fundamental denialism of whatever they can get away with dening until they are forced to admit something.

I invite you to read what I put in post #20.

[LDSToronto]

He also went on to speak of exaltation and the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom, he said that for those who become the ministering angels in the Celestial Kingdom (those who were never sealed and/or endowed) that this level of Celestial Kingdom is hell for them, that having to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom without the ability to have spirit children is it own kind of hell.

What do you think?

I think this is a stretch.

H.

[LDS Guy 1986]

While I agree with the doctrine you present here, just because a seventy says it and you can give authoritative quotes means it is "authoritative" as far as that goes, but it is far from being "official Church doctrine."

What!?!?!?!

That discussion had nothing to do with the matter I asked the member of the Seventy at all the Paradise and Outer Darkness thing was completely separate and it didn't come from any seventy's remarks but it came from the LDS.org website, which is the official doctrine of the Church. If you look back to post number 18, you will see the sources from lds.org I quoted in regards to this seperate issue about paradise and outer darkness.

[zerinus]

Whether you make stuff up yourself, or follow somebody else who has made stuff up, it is the same. Blindly following what you find in the Church

[frankenstein]

While some see the Telestial Kingdom as so wonderful we would happily die now to get there; ...

I have been told Joseph Smith said as much, did he say that if someone knew its glory they would kill themself to get there?

some might see that exaltation is so great that anything less is hell in comparison, holding far higher aspirations (faith) and expectations (hope) in being One with Christ (charity).

A most horrid philosophy of man. No part of Heaven is hell, and any who think, deserve no piece of Heaven.

If God does not cast pearls before swine, why would God allow someone into His presence who will consider that most wonderful gift hell?

[frankenstein]

Bump for LDS Guy.

zerinus, you have done nothing to show that your interpretation of the scriptures is correct.

Concerning paradise and SoP, LDS Guy, posted LDS Church Statements from Official LDS Church publications.

[CV75]

A most horrid philosophy of man.

From the perspective being shared in the OP, accepting anything less than exaltation is to some degree an extension of precisely that, and for this reason I defend the idea that it is in our best interest to pursue exaltation and not anything less.

[LDS Guy 1986]

A most horrid philosophy of man. No part of Heaven is hell, and any who think, deserve no piece of Heaven.

Of all the statement's made in this thread (and possibly in the forums as I have seen) this is the most incredible! What authority on Earth or in Heaven makes you fit to set the conditions for who is deserving or undeserving of Celestial Glory?

This is a mighty sinful thing you just did to assume you know better than God and can judge who is worthy of a certain reward. I hope you either got a mountain of support from the scripture to back that up, or a quick apology followed by some mighty repentance for such blasphemy.

If God does not cast pearls before swine, why would God allow someone into His presence who will consider that most wonderful gift hell?

CFR, where in the Bible does it say God does not cast his pearls before the swine?

We are counciled by Christ to to cast the pearls of the gospel before the swine, lest they trample on it. But you stretch this way out of what was said and put mighty restrictions on Heavenly Father with no justification unless you can once again provide a mountain of scriptures to support this idea of yours.

So far your response is not so hot or theologically sound, you have taken the role of Christ unto yourself and decided to declare who deserves what in the Celestial Kingdom, and then on top of that told God what he can and can't do with his secrets!

[LDS Guy 1986]

From the perspective being shared in the OP, accepting anything less than exaltation is to some degree an extension of precisely that, and for this reason I defend the idea that it is in our best interest to pursue exaltation and not anything less.

I disagree, Elder Anderson only said that to be a ministering Angel in the Celestial Glory is a degree of hell because we are singular for eternity, meaning we have no children nor any family. To dwell for ever serving God in a place where families are eternal when you are a singular without children, without family, and without increase, is truly a form of guilt that can only be described as hell. To have to dwell in the presence of what you could of became but didn't become because you fell short, is a terrible burden of guilt.

Those in lesser glories will still feel some guilt for never entering the Celestial Kingdom but not nearly as much as those who attain Celestial Glory, yet fail to enter into exaltation and become a god.

[frankenstein]

So far your response is not so hot or theologically sound,..

no one can provide scriptural support that ANY part of Heaven - Heaven being comprised of 3 main degrees of GLORY - is hell or any type of Hell.

you have taken the role of Christ unto yourself and decided to declare who deserves what in the Celestial Kingdom, and then on top of that told God what he can and can't do with his secrets!

I have not commanded God.

To be clear, It is my OPINION that those who consider ANY PART OF HEAVEN to be hell are not deserving of any piece of heaven - meaning not even the lowest Kingdom of Heaven; which leaves only one option for them in my opinion.

[zerinus]

zerinus, you have done nothing to show that your interpretation of the scriptures is correct.

Concerning paradise and SoP, LDS Guy, posted LDS Church Statements from Official LDS Church publications.

In Mormonism, the standard works take precedence over what is taught elsewhere, including the Church's website. The meaning of the quotes I gave from the standard works are clear. No "interpretation" is required. If he disagrees with them, it is up to him to explain how and why.

[frankenstein]

If Heaven is ONLY the 3 level of the CK with an eternal family and having worlds without end and everything else is Hell, then the LDS have been dupped big time and teach falsehood in missionary discussions? It is more doctrinally sound, then, to teach ONE HEAVEN where God dwells (formerly know as the 3 level of the CK), and if you don't make there you are in Hell; and thus we have the apostasy from one most precious truths of the true and ever lasting gospel.