A hell within Celestial Glory?

[mbh26]

Those in lesser glories will still feel some guilt for never entering the Celestial Kingdom but not nearly as much as those who attain Celestial Glory, yet fail to enter into exaltation and become a god.

So if you find yourself not married, best to fornicate so that you are better off in the telestial kingdom and not suffering as much guilt as if you found yourself in the Celestial kingdom.

[frankenstein]

In Mormonism, the standard works take precedence over what is taught elsewhere, including the Church's website. The meaning of the quotes I gave from the standard works are clear. No "interpretation" is required. If he disagrees with them, it is up to him to explain how and why.

what he posted is the Official interpretation of the LDS Church or rather he explained quite accurately the Official interpretation.

[Rob Osborn]

The doctrines of salvation are a lot different than meets the eye. There is no "hell" in heaven. Hell is a "place" reserved for wicked people. We must remember that "hell" as defined by the scriptures is a physical location, not a state of mind or a state of being. Some also speak of "damnation" as anything less than the highest degree in the celestial kingdom. This is a philosophy wholly unsupported in the scriptures. Damnation is the judgment or state of being of those condemned to the physical place called hell. One cannot experience damnation unless he is condemned to hell.

As for people being saved who reject the gospel, God has no power to save anyone who rejects the gospel and choose to remain in this rejection. There is a reason why even the wicked in hell are taught the gospel because that is their only ticket out of that condemnation. The gospel is for all regardless of if or even how many times they rejected it before.

There is also no doctrine stating how the righteous in the celestial kingdom perceive where they could have been had they been a little more diligent. For all we know everyone there will share alike in happiness and joy. We also do not know the eventual state of their status in eternity. For all we know everyone is eventually married and is a God. After all, is it not Gods work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man?

[frankenstein]

So if you find yourself not married, best to fornicate so that you are better off in the telestial kingdom and not suffering as much guilt as if you found yourself in the Celestial kingdom.

good point

[zerinus]

what he posted is the Official interpretation of the LDS Church or rather he explained quite accurately the Official interpretation.

You must be hard of hearing (or seeing). The standard works take precedence over what is taught elsewhere, including the Church's "official" website. Is that really that hard for you to understand?

[frankenstein]

You must be hard of hearing (or seeing). The standard works take precedence over what is taught elsewhere, including the Church's "official" website. Is that really that hard for you to understand?

like i originally said you have done nothing to show your interpretation is the ONLY correct choice. you can back up your opinion that scripture trump the living Prophet or you can't surely you can show that scriptures trump Official LDS Church statements.

[zerinus]

like i originally said you have done nothing to show your interpretation is the ONLY correct choice. you can back up your opinion that scripture trump the living Prophet or you can't surely you can show that scriptures trump Official LDS Church statements.

I believe that those scriptural references are self-explanatory, and do not require "clarification" or "interpretation;" and I am convinced that LDS Guy is perfectly capable of understanding that. If you feel you need for further clarification or interpretation of them, I am willing to provide that for you; but since I am addressing that post specifically to him, I do not feel the need to provide any further clarification or interpretation as I am convinced he does not need any.

Now if you really would like me to provide more clarification of those scriptural references for your benefit, let us know and I will do the best I can.

[frankenstein]

zerinus, it good to know you can not or are unwilling to back up your opinion that black letter reading/application of scripture trumps a living prophet or that black letter reading/application of scripture trumps the Church.

[zerinus]

zerinus, it good to know you can not or are unwilling to back up your opinion that black letter reading/application of scripture trumps a living prophet or that black letter reading/application of scripture trumps the Church.

That has already been done in this post. No need to repeat that all over again.

[frankenstein]

That has already been done in this post. No need to repeat that all over again.

I would say it is ironic that you claim the scriptures trump the living prophet and to back up your claim you use non-scripture statements which refer to the "standard works" as the basis to determining truth from opinion.

The statements from Harold B Lee can be dismissed simply based on standards He put forth.

In 69 he claims it must be in the "standard works" otherwise it is an opinion; he did not use any scripture to back up his claim, thus it is his opinion.

In 73 Lee states that new doctrine will come from the prophet stated as a revelation, sustained by the 12 and the body of the Church; was there such a sustaining to Lee's 73 comment?

Can you back up your claim with the Standard Works? Where in the Bible, BoM, PoC, D&C is it stated that scripture trumps the living Prophet or Church publications?

[zerinus]

I would say it is ironic that you claim the scriptures trump the living prophet and to back up your claim you use non-scripture statements which refer to the "standard works" as the basis to determining truth from opinion.

The statements from Harold B Lee can be dismissed simply based on standards He put forth.

In 69 he claims it must be in the "standard works" otherwise it is an opinion; he did not use any scripture to back up his claim, thus it is his opinion.

In 73 Lee states that new doctrine will come from the prophet stated as a revelation, sustained by the 12 and the body of the Church; was there such a sustaining to Lee's 73 comment?

Can you back up your claim with the Standard Works? Where in the Bible, BoM, PoC, D&C is it stated that scripture trumps the living Prophet or Church publications?

Scripture references was given in the same post. You seem to be arguing for its own sake, and not interested in a serious discussion. Those statements from General Authorities define Church policy on the subject. No subsequent prophet has ever contradicted or disagreed with Harold B. Lee et. al.

[california boy]

I disagree, Elder Anderson only said that to be a ministering Angel in the Celestial Glory is a degree of hell because we are singular for eternity, meaning we have no children nor any family. To dwell for ever serving God in a place where families are eternal when you are a singular without children, without family, and without increase, is truly a form of guilt that can only be described as hell. To have to dwell in the presence of what you could of became but didn't become because you fell short, is a terrible burden of guilt.

Those in lesser glories will still feel some guilt for never entering the Celestial Kingdom but not nearly as much as those who attain Celestial Glory, yet fail to enter into exaltation and become a god.

So who is going to break the news to my dear sweet sister who has the most compassionate and forgiving spirit of anyone else in my family that she is going to suffer hell in the Celestial Kingdom becasuse she marrried a nice guy that was not a member of the church many years ago. She has remained faithful in the gospel and still attends even though her husband will have nothing to do with the church. Still a great guy, but no eternal marriage.

I. on the other hand. will be perfectly happy in the Celestial Kingdom just being the doorman since I have absolutely no desire to be married to a woman for eternity. Hell for me would be spending eternity married to a woman. But then, I don't really need to be in charge of things anyway. I am very happy just being a humble servant.

Maybe Elder Anderson and anyone else on earth DOESN'T KNOW what God's plans are for each one of us. And DOESN"T KNOW what our state of mind will be.

[TAO]

So who is going to break the news to my dear sweet sister who has the most compassionate and forgiving spirit of anyone else in my family that she is going to suffer hell in the Celestial Kingdom becasuse she marrried a nice guy that was not a member of the church many years ago. She has remained faithful in the gospel and still attends even though her husband will have nothing to do with the church. Still a great guy, but no eternal marriage.

I. on the other hand. will be perfectly happy in the Celestial Kingdom just being the doorman since I have absolutely no desire to be married to a woman for eternity. Hell for me would be spending eternity married to a woman. But then, I don't really need to be in charge of things anyway. I am very happy just being a humble servant.

Maybe Elder Anderson and anyone else on earth DOESN'T KNOW what God's plans are for each one of us. And DOESN"T KNOW what our state of mind will be.

California boy... though it may be that way, there is still time, and I wouldn't say for certain what is going to happen.

He may join the church some time. Perhaps even in the next life. If he doesn't, depending on her choices, she may be given to someone else or might not.

It's in God's sight that it is... we know not how things are going to turn out... well at least most of us don't very clearly ;-).

California Boy, also, I don't agree with your picture of what it may be like to be married in the celestial kingdom... what type of lifestyle it is and will be... to me, it's mostly different from the type of marriages that go here on earth mayhaps... it's something much more perfect and pure and... serviceful. Indeed, I hope you will open up to the possibility sometime in the future... mairrage was never meant to be something where you got more out of it then you put it... it's about serving others, that it is =). And in serving others may perfection be made possible. I think one will come to enjoy it... and I hope one day, one won't worry so much about whether the person is a women, as to that person is your covenanted partner ordained by God... I think that will make you more happy that I do... I hope it, that I do. Eternity will be much more joyful, I think, with someone to serve and sacrifice for =).

Either way, that path may be yours, and we will all do our best to help you bear it. In your trials and struggles you are not alone. =).

Best Wishes,

Your humble friend,

TAO

[CV75]

I disagree, Elder Anderson only said that to be a ministering Angel in the Celestial Glory is a degree of hell because we are singular for eternity, meaning we have no children nor any family. To dwell for ever serving God in a place where families are eternal when you are a singular without children, without family, and without increase, is truly a form of guilt that can only be described as hell. To have to dwell in the presence of what you could of became but didn't become because you fell short, is a terrible burden of guilt.

Those in lesser glories will still feel some guilt for never entering the Celestial Kingdom but not nearly as much as those who attain Celestial Glory, yet fail to enter into exaltation and become a god.

Actually, my remark was intended to support your OP. I tried to convey that accepting anything less than exaltation is the result of holding onto a precept of man, since God's will is that we pursue exaltation and not anything less.

[mercyngrace]

What is "less than exaltation"?

Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said,

[LDS Guy 1986]

So who is going to break the news to my dear sweet sister who has the most compassionate and forgiving spirit of anyone else in my family that she is going to suffer hell in the Celestial Kingdom becasuse she marrried a nice guy that was not a member of the church many years ago. She has remained faithful in the gospel and still attends even though her husband will have nothing to do with the church. Still a great guy, but no eternal marriage.

I. on the other hand. will be perfectly happy in the Celestial Kingdom just being the doorman since I have absolutely no desire to be married to a woman for eternity. Hell for me would be spending eternity married to a woman. But then, I don't really need to be in charge of things anyway. I am very happy just being a humble servant.

Maybe Elder Anderson and anyone else on earth DOESN'T KNOW what God's plans are for each one of us. And DOESN"T KNOW what our state of mind will be.

Well seeing that today isn't judgement day she still has plenty of time to work on getting a temple marriage and she will have the opportunity to have this ordinance if she so desires it and maintains her faith in the Lord. Why do you feel to take away from Christ and God there power to continue to work on man while we continue to progress towards eternity, you do not know if here husband will join the church in this life or the next, so your statement is completly false. To make such a bold and unsupported statement bothers me and you go on to say that nobody knows God plan for someone, yet you seem to think that you know God's plan for your Sister even though there is still time before the day of judgement. I guess only you are worthy enough to tell people what God has planned for them.

Also you seem to think you know God's plan for your life so well that you know what is better for yourself than God does, that's amazing! I didn't know you were that perfect that you could pierced through the veil and discerned not only your sister and her husband's eternal state but your own!

[Nathair/|\]

Why would you think that increase means having children? It is specifially talking about an increase in kingdoms.

When did I indicate that I thought "increase means having children?" I was specifically referring to the question of how someone could be in the CK without being sealed or endowed.

[CV75]

What is "less than exaltation"?

In this discussion, it refers to D&C 131:1-4 where there is a "highest" and the other degrees are less than the highest in terms of priesthood order, obtaining, ad having an "end" and not having "an increase." When the eye is single to God's glory, salvation and exaltation (as the term is used in D&C 132 and the header in 131) are synonymous.

[california boy]

Well seeing that today isn't judgement day she still has plenty of time to work on getting a temple marriage and she will have the opportunity to have this ordinance if she so desires it and maintains her faith in the Lord. Why do you feel to take away from Christ and God there power to continue to work on man while we continue to progress towards eternity, you do not know if here husband will join the church in this life or the next, so your statement is completly false. To make such a bold and unsupported statement bothers me and you go on to say that nobody knows God plan for someone, yet you seem to think that you know God's plan for your Sister even though there is still time before the day of judgement. I guess only you are worthy enough to tell people what God has planned for them.

Also you seem to think you know God's plan for your life so well that you know what is better for yourself than God does, that's amazing! I didn't know you were that perfect that you could pierced through the veil and discerned not only your sister and her husband's eternal state but your own!

I don't know what God's plan for my sister is. I do know what the church doctrine is concerning my sister. Your suggestion that her husband could have a change of heart means that her exaltation is dependent on what HE chooses to do, The only other option is for her to get a divorce and hope that she finds someone who will marry her in the temple so that she will fit what Mormon doctrine teaches her about her own exaltation. I guess I am not so hung up on dogma. I am more comfortable with trusting in God.

[TAO]

Your suggestion that her husband could have a change of heart means that her exaltation is dependent on what HE chooses to do,

Nah, this is incorrect, you can see D&C 132. It states that people who have undeserving spouses will be given to others.

The only other option is for her to get a divorce and hope that she finds someone who will marry her in the temple so that she will fit what Mormon doctrine teaches her about her own exaltation.

She may need to get a divorce for other reasons. But if she doesn't, it won't necessarily effect her exaltation. It might though, based on her own personal choices, and not his. We should leave that up to God that we should =).

[Brade]

So tonight was our Stake Conference and we have Elder Andersen of the Second Quorum of the Seventy presiding. He decided that he wanted to open the floor for questions regarding salvation, the first question was what is paradise?

Elder Andersen invited the Temple President to give his perspective on the matter, and then offered his own. He talked about how Paradise in the spirit world is the place where those who have accepted the Gospel, at least had baptisms and the gift of the holy ghost, and endured to the end reside until the day of judgement. That he's people are there to serve the people in prison and help them accept the Gospel and through proxy work be able to enter into paradise as well.

He also went on to speak of exaltation and the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom, he said that for those who become the ministering angels in the Celestial Kingdom (those who were never sealed and/or endowed) that this level of Celestial Kingdom is hell for them, that having to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom without the ability to have spirit children is it own kind of hell.

I thought this was a very interesting perspective.

What do you think?

I think it's a silly and shortsighted view that completely ignores the plausible possibility that some people might sincerely not want to have spiritual children, and therefore that being in God's presence, but nevertheless choosing to live such as to not have the ability to have spiritual children would not be a hell for such people; rather, such a life would be exactly what they want.

[Calm]

I think it's a silly and shortsighted view that completely ignores the plausible possibility that some people might sincerely not want to have spiritual children, and therefore that being in God's presence, but nevertheless choosing to live such as to not have the ability to have spiritual children would not be a hell for such people; rather, such a life would be exactly what they want.

If someone wants children so badly that not to have them would make eternal life a hell then it is unlikely, imo, that they will be making decisions that will rob them of that chance.

Man is that he might have joy....according to God.

I don't see God setting things up so this can't actually happen after all except for only the chosen few.