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A hell within Celestial Glory?


LDS Guy 1986

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So tonight was our Stake Conference and we have Elder Andersen of the Second Quorum of the Seventy presiding. He decided that he wanted to open the floor for questions regarding salvation, the first question was what is paradise?

Elder Andersen invited the Temple President to give his perspective on the matter, and then offered his own. He talked about how Paradise in the spirit world is the place where those who have accepted the Gospel, at least had baptisms and the gift of the holy ghost, and endured to the end reside until the day of judgement. That he's people are there to serve the people in prison and help them accept the Gospel and through proxy work be able to enter into paradise as well.

He also went on to speak of exaltation and the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom, he said that for those who become the ministering angels in the Celestial Kingdom (those who were never sealed and/or endowed) that this level of Celestial Kingdom is hell for them, that having to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom without the ability to have spirit children is it own kind of hell.

I thought this was a very interesting perspective.

What do you think?

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I think we'll be surprised about a lot of things. It's tougher to find Church leaders willing to comment on things they don't know for sure about these days, especially if it's even remotely verifiable. Of course we'll never verify the truth of this question in this life so it's pretty safe for a Church leader to comment on it. If it ever did turn out that he was wrong, it will be in a time so far removed from the here and now that it will not be significant. One thing I do know now is that whatever I hear from the pulpit from a given GA is not necessarilly the empirical truth, but rather whatever they think is best that you hear at the time. And I would argue that the Lord does this as well, i.e. the scripture in the D&C that tackles the question if hell is endless or not.

Could one not argue that if someone feels like they are in hell while in a Celestial glory it doesn't have more to do with a faulty perspective including an inability to appreciate the good things they have while always seeking to want something that could have been. Just not experiencing the basic pains that come with living would elevate my happiness to levels I could not even imagine right now. We're commanded to be happy no matter what level we have achieved or what our current state is. And to think that because one failed a test that God will forever deny someone the oppurtunity to repent and improve himself if he later proves worthy seems to fall far short of the greater good in my view. Do people somehow lose the ability to change and improve themselves at some point? If that were so, we truly wouldn't have free will would we?

A lot of this stuff doesn't add up. There are lot of divine and eternal truths taught in Church. There are a lot of false ideas of men mingled in, even in the true Church when you start trying to find the answer to deeper questions like this. Perhaps that's why the Brethren refuse to address such questions. But I'm with you, it'd be very interesting if we could know all the whys behind some of these asserted truths.

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for those who become the ministering angels in the Celestial Kingdom (those who were never sealed and/or endowed) that this level of Celestial Kingdom is hell for them,

What do you think?

how can one never be sealed or endowed and be in the Celestial Kingdom. More so, how could one never be sealed or endowed; isn't Temple work eventually to be done for every mortal who ever was on the earth?

My position is that those who describe any part of post judgment Heaven as hell, do not know what they are talking about. A terrible unsupportable philosophy of man has crept into minds of the Membership, that philosophy being "Any but the CK is would be Hell to me" or "Eternity without my family would be Hell to me" or anything like unto it.

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how can one never be sealed or endowed and be in the Celestial Kingdom. More so, how could one never be sealed or endowed; isn't Temple work eventually to be done for every mortal who ever was on the earth?

My position is that those who describe any part of post judgment Heaven as hell, do not know what they are talking about. A terrible unsupportable philosophy of man has crept into minds of the Membership, that philosophy being "Any but the CK is would be Hell to me" or "Eternity without my family would be Hell to me" or anything like unto it.

1In the acelestial glory there are three bheavens or degrees;

2And in order to obtain the ahighest, a man must enter into this border of the cpriesthood [meaning the new anddeverlasting covenant of emarriage];

3And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an aincrease.

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this level of Celestial Kingdom is hell for them, that having to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom without the ability to have spirit children is it own kind of hell.

Not being able to progress by receiving all that God has is an aspect of damnation, which is one aspect of "hell."

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how can one never be sealed or endowed and be in the Celestial Kingdom. More so, how could one never be sealed or endowed; isn't Temple work eventually to be done for every mortal who ever was on the earth?

The only requirement to enter into the lowest degree of Celestial Kingdom is Baptism and Confirmation, the Temple Ordinances prepare us for Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom.

Temple Work will be done for all who have passed away before our time, but we will not force anyone who is living to have work done. Once they pass away there work can be done by proxy (after 1 year from there death) but proxy work MUST be accepted by the individual in the spirit world, it is not some forced or automatic thing.

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Not being able to progress by receiving all that God has is an aspect of damnation, which is one aspect of "hell."

Do you believe that if someone has an oppurtunity to marry in this life but rejects it that they will be judged and found unworthy of marriage henceforth and forever? Hence they can only enter a lower degree of the Celestial Kingdom?

How often do you think the Lord will render this judgment of permanent condemnation? How permanent is it? Do you think we'll see the Lord pass a judgment of condemnation for this sin of foregoing marriage on more people or less people than most Church members would expect? Maybe they were selfish people in this life but after death they repented and changed their attitude. So why would God continue to withhold the oppurtunity of marriage from them? What good purpose does this type of policy serve?

It brings up a deeper question. When you die, do you retain any knowledge of your life here on earth? Wouldn't just knowing that you still exist after death change peoples attitudes and views immensely? How could it not? They say their are no atheists in foxholes. Will there be atheists in the spirit world? If you don't retain any knowledge of earth life, what exactly is left? One replies, "A man's spirit." But what exactly does that mean? What does a spirit retain from the past if it's memory has been wiped? What exactly did we bring with us from our premortal existence?

I suppose you could clone a human being and basically control for genetics and evaluate how different environments would change the human being. If we were able to do that on a large scale we could potentially get a better idea what variables were left. But just from observing identical twin experiments they seem so similar that most religious people I've spoken with have concluded that their spirits must be identical twins as well. Are there spiritual identical twins?

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Once they pass away there work can be done by proxy (after 1 year from there death) but proxy work MUST be accepted by the individual in the spirit world, it is not some forced or automatic thing.

Will someone in the spirit world know that the only thing holding them back is having their baptism and temple work done and them accepting this work? Why would someone not accept this work in the spirit world? It seems even easier than going to the temple during life. You don't even have to pay tithing to get your recommend.

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Do you believe ...?

1. Do you believe that if someone has an oppurtunity to marry in this life but rejects it that they will be judged and found unworthy of marriage henceforth and forever? Only if in their set of circumstances (testing) this makes them unable to repent or progress.

2. How often do you think the Lord will render this judgment of permanent condemnation? How permanent is it? As permanent as their inability to repent or progress.

3. What good purpose does this type of policy serve? The preservation of agency, which is the full expression of existence.

4. When you die, do you retain any knowledge of your life here on earth? Yes.

5. Wouldn't just knowing that you still exist after death change peoples attitudes and views immensely? Yes.

6. Will there be atheists in the spirit world? Yes, atheists in practice, if no other kind.

7. Are there spiritual identical twins? This is a good argument for explaining why we are not in a position to judge anyone but ourselves.

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Do you believe that if someone has an oppurtunity to marry in this life but rejects it that they will be judged and found unworthy of marriage henceforth and forever? Only if in their set of circumstances (testing) this makes them unable to repent or progress.

What set of circumstances would make them unable to repent or progress?

2. How often do you think the Lord will render this judgment of permanent condemnation? How permanent is it? As permanent as their inability to repent or progress.

Can you describe for me a case where someone remains temple worthy but foregoes the oppurtunity to marry in this life for less than righteous reasons and will therefore be judged to only be worthy of the lower degree of the Celestial kingdom for all of eternity. Does such a case exist?

3. What good purpose does this type of policy serve? The preservation of agency, which is the full expression of existence.

I thought the purpose of separating the sinners from the reformed and repentant was to protect the standard of living in the kingdom of God. If one were able to reform and repent after the final judgment and proved himself capable of doing things right, what harm would this be causing? Why can't a person repent after the final judgment? Why does there even need be a final judgment if eternity is infinite?

4. When you die, do you retain any knowledge of your life here on earth? Yes.

5. Wouldn't just knowing that you still exist after death change peoples attitudes and views immensely? Yes.

That would lead me to believe that it would be much easier to accept the gospel in the next life. Yet we're often told that it's more difficult to accept the gospel after death. How do you explain that?

Lastly what religious principle would stop someone from accepting the gospel in the next life? People aren't divided along denominational lines like they once were. Most people are defined by believers in the spiritual or nonbelievers. Your mere existence after death would clear up the biggest question of all. Wouldn't this invalidate the test we are taking in this life? I mean, if you are asked to pass a difficult test to keep your end of the covenant but fail, does it seem right that you then be given an easier test and granted the same result for passing it as you would have been granted for passing the more difficult test? Why was it necessary to take the more difficult test in the first place?

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Will someone in the spirit world know that the only thing holding them back is having their baptism and temple work done and them accepting this work?

Maybe, maybe not only God knows for sure (and those who have passed through the veil), from what the prophet's have told us nothing changes about our personalities from this life into the spirit world, but ultimatlely I doubt that anyone on this Earth completely understands the Spirit World.

Why would someone not accept this work in the spirit world?

For the same reason why some are never baptized or join the Church in this life also, because they choose not to. Nothing will ever make us do anything, we always have the right to choose or not choose.

It seems even easier than going to the temple during life. You don't even have to pay tithing to get your recommend.

Which is why the deceiver would want us to think to delay the day of our salvation, he wants us to do the easy way that condemns us instead of the way that our Heavenly Father planned for us.

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Why would you think that increase means having children? It is specifially talking about an increase in kingdoms.

Well it actually isn't talking about increasing kingdoms if you look at the footnotes, it specifically points out that increase refers to fatherhood, motherhood, and eternal marriage.

Here is the link so you can check out the footnote for yourself on lds.org : http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/131.1?lang=eng#

So ultimatly your interpretation is not correct, the increase does mean the ability to have spirit children, not an increase in eternal marriage.

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So tonight was our Stake Conference and we have Elder Andersen of the Second Quorum of the Seventy presiding. He decided that he wanted to open the floor for questions regarding salvation, the first question was what is paradise?

Elder Andersen invited the Temple President to give his perspective on the matter, and then offered his own. He talked about how Paradise in the spirit world is the place where those who have accepted the Gospel, at least had baptisms and the gift of the holy ghost, and endured to the end reside until the day of judgement. That he's people are there to serve the people in prison and help them accept the Gospel and through proxy work be able to enter into paradise as well.

I do not agree with that answer (assuming you have reported it correctly). "Paradise" in the spirit world is the destination for anybody who has lived decent, honorable, and virtuous lives, regardless of what religion they belonged to, or whether they had been "baptized" or not. "Outer darkness" is the place for people who had been wicked and evil in this life, regardless of whether they had known anything about the gospel or not.

He also went on to speak of exaltation and the three degrees of the Celestial Kingdom, he said that for those who become the ministering angels in the Celestial Kingdom (those who were never sealed and/or endowed) that this level of Celestial Kingdom is hell for them, that having to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom without the ability to have spirit children is it own kind of hell.

I thought this was a very interesting perspective.

What do you think?

Is he suggesting that the people who go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms will be happier in their various stations than people who go to the lower degrees of the celestial kingdoms? I don't think so!

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Them choosing not to repent and follow the plan of there heavenly father.

That takes care of pretty much everybody than doesn't it?

Secondly my question was hitting more on the idea of, "Can the devil repent assuming that he would?" And if he cannot, why not? Would that not be a good thing if the devil decided to repent? Why would God choose to not allow it? What harm would there be in fellowshipping with Adoph Hitler if he had truly repented. In fact, are we not commanded to forgive and do so? He could possibly be easier to get along with then a lot of the people we have to live with right now.

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. "Paradise" in the spirit world is the destination for anybody who has lived decent, honorable, and virtuous lives, regardless of what religion they belonged to, or whether they had been "baptized" or not. "Outer darkness" is the place for people who had been wicked and evil in this life, regardless of whether they had known anything about the gospel or not.

You are completely wrong here 110% at least if you are trying to proclaim you are LDS.

Paradise in the Spirit World is only for the righteous who have had the ordinances of salvation performed for them while they lived, or by proxy if they died without a knowledge of the Gospel, or rejected the Gospel in this life. You cannot enter into paradise without baptism and conformation by the proper priesthood authority. All who do not meet this standard are stuck in spirit prision, until there proxy work is done, and they accept the ordinances and the Restored Gospel. Source:

http://lds.org/study/topics/paradise?lang=eng&query=paradise

Outer Darkness is the second death the spiritual death, where Lucifer and the Sons of Perdition spend all eternity wailing and gnashing there teeth. Only those who have committed an unforgivable sin can be in Outer Darkness. Source: http://lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng&query=sons+perdition

Outer Darkness is not for petty criminals and those who did evil in this life, it is for those who rebelled against God and committed the unforgivable sins. All who can be saved will be, throwing people who committed terrible sins and were wicked while never knowing of the laws and standards of the Restored Gospel into Outer Darkness is the actions of a unjust and wicked God, not of a loving and merciful God.

Is he suggesting that the people who go to the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms will be happier in their various stations than people who go to the lower degrees of the celestial kingdoms? I don't think so!

That is less certain, but also realize that those in a lower kingdom didn't start the process of exaltation and not fulfill the requirements. In this aspect to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom knowing what you could of obtained with more faith and devotion to Heavenly Father's plan for us, is it's own kind of personal hell.

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This is just my own take on it and not any official doctrine-

Personally i believe that in the end there will not be anyone who is both "saved" and "single". I am coming to the conclusion that salvation is wholly dependent upon being sealed to a spouse- that it is through marriage that one finds true salvation in Christ. I interpret the entire endowment in the temple to revolve around covenants made with a spouse and that it is through that obedience that we find salvation. There is much we do not understand about our creation and purpose. If one could imagine for a moment a boat without oars. In similar fashion, a man is like a boat with no oars. If oars are what makes the boat operate, then I also believe that it is through our completeion of being "paired up" that we find out who we are and why we were created. Our body parts have purposes. Both the Female and the Male body compliment and complete each other. Without this coupling, the purpose or function of the parts are incomplete. As we push forwards towards salvation- towards perfection we shall realize the importance of our creation and thus know the need of being complete.

Sometimes I think our scriptures are worded in such a manner that perhaps isn't always correct but still achieves the best scenerio of bringing to pass God's will. This is one of those cases. I couldn't imagine anyone serving all of eternity in happiness without fulfilling the measure of their creation. At some point, anyone reaching godliness will want to be just that- "godly" and as such will desire completeion.

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You are completely wrong here 110% at least if you are trying to proclaim you are LDS.

I think you are 111% wrong! I am starting to have doubts about your membership of the Church; you needn't worry about mine.

Paradise in the Spirit World is only for the righteous who have had the ordinances of salvation performed for them while they lived, or by proxy if they died without a knowledge of the Gospel, or rejected the Gospel in this life. You cannot enter into paradise without baptism and conformation by the proper priesthood authority. All who do not meet this standard are stuck in spirit prision, until there proxy work is done, and they accept the ordinances and the Restored Gospel. Source:

http://lds.org/study/topics/paradise?lang=eng&query=paradise

You might have figured by now that I extract my doctrine directly from the standard works in the first instance, and secondarily from other Church literature; and if there is a discrepancy between the two, the standard works takes precedence over the rest. Here is what the scriptures teach about who goes to paradise:

Luke 23
:

43 And Jesus said unto him [
thief on the cross
], Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Nephi 9
:

13 O how great the plan of our God! For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the
righteous,
and the grave deliver up the body of the
righteous;
and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again, and all men become incorruptible, and immortal, and they are living souls, having a perfect knowledge like unto us in the flesh, save it be that our knowledge shall be perfect.

Alma 40
:

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are
righteous
are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

* * *

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the
righteous
in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

Outer Darkness is the second death the spiritual death, where Lucifer and the Sons of Perdition spend all eternity wailing and gnashing there teeth. Only those who have committed an unforgivable sin can be in Outer Darkness. Source: http://lds.org/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng&query=sons+perdition

Outer Darkness is not for petty criminals and those who did evil in this life, it is for those who rebelled against God and committed the unforgivable sins. All who can be saved will be, throwing people who committed terrible sins and were wicked while never knowing of the laws and standards of the Restored Gospel into Outer Darkness is the actions of a unjust and wicked God, not of a loving and merciful God.

Not according to Alma. Scriptures previously cited. If you "wrest" them, you do so to "your own destruction," say Peter and Alma! (2 Peter 3:16; Alma 13:20) :P

That is less certain, but also realize that those in a lower kingdom didn't start the process of exaltation and not fulfill the requirements. In this aspect to spend eternity in the Celestial Kingdom knowing what you could of obtained with more faith and devotion to Heavenly Father's plan for us, is it's own kind of personal hell.

LOL! ;)

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I am starting to have doubts about your membership of the Church;

Seeing that I am teaching the doctrine of the Church have no fear about my membership, I am more than glad to give you my name, ward, and stake info if you feel that I am falsely presenting the doctrine of the Church and my Priesthood Leadership needs to be notified, through PM as long as my personal information isn't used for any other manner besides contacting my leadership.

Paradise is only available to those who have the appropriate ordinances performed in this life or through proxy if they died without a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel. If the ordinances are not performed one cannot enter into paradise until there proxy ordinances are preformed, this is why we put such a huge emphasis on getting ordinances for our deceased relatives.

Outer Darkness is reserved for those who rebel against God like Lucifer, all except for the Sons of Perdition those who committed an unforgivable sin, are saved through the atonement of Christ to one of the three kingdoms in Heaven, Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial.

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throwing people who committed terrible sins and were wicked while never knowing of the laws and standards of the Restored Gospel into Outer Darkness is the actions of a unjust and wicked God, not of a loving and merciful God.

We're all given the light of Christ. I think it's fair to hold people accountable to a lot of moral truths that are found outside of Mormonism as well as inside it.

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Seeing that I am teaching the doctrine of the Church have no fear about my membership, I am more than glad to give you my name, ward, and stake info if you feel that I am falsely presenting the doctrine of the Church and my Priesthood Leadership needs to be notified, through PM as long as my personal information isn't used for any other manner besides contacting my leadership.

Thank you, but not interested.

Paradise is only available to those who have the appropriate ordinances performed in this life or through proxy if they died without a knowledge of the fullness of the Gospel. If the ordinances are not performed one cannot enter into paradise until there proxy ordinances are preformed, this is why we put such a huge emphasis on getting ordinances for our deceased relatives.

Outer Darkness is reserved for those who rebel against God like Lucifer, all except for the Sons of Perdition those who committed an unforgivable sin, are saved through the atonement of Christ to one of the three kingdoms in Heaven, Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial.

You are welcome to your views, but LDS doctrine is determined by the revealed word of God, not by somebody's declarative assertations. You can shout what you will, but it won't make it true LDS doctrine, or supplant what God has revealed in the standard works.

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LDSguy, I read what you had posted from the GA wrong, about entering the Celestial Kingdom.

However, apart from who gets in and what conditions, I still think that people use the term "hell" in reference to a Kingdom of Glory, do not know what they are talking about; especially in reference to the Celestial Kingdom, where God and Christ dwell and a person is worthy to be there.

It seem utterly ridiculous to say that someone in the Celestial Kingdom is in "hell" experiencing "hell" or a "type of hell".

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