End of the world may 21 2011

[bluebell]

This is how I feel also, the scriptures say we will not know when Christ comes, and the opinion of Joseph Smith doesn't change that.

Well, I don't know that the scriptures mean that no one will ever know when He comes. The scriptures also say, as has been said already, that God will do nothing except He tell his prophets. I don't think we can ignore that scripture in this discussion.

I agree with JS that the verses mentioned earlier seem to be speaking in a present tense and don't necessarily mean that the information will never be known to any but Heavenly Father.

I would assume that Christ knows, for example, when He is coming again, though the scriptures imply that He didn't when He was mortal.

My question though is sincere. I'm not sure how to interpret the verses that speak of Him coming like a thief in the night if the prophet of His church is going to know about it beforehand, unless the prophet will not be allowed to tell anyone.

I just don't know how it all works.

[SeattleGrunge]

I think way too little is known by the members about what our leaders and scriptures have said on this subject

RE: thief in the night

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/106.4-5?lang=eng#3

4And again, verily I say unto you, the acoming of the Lord draweth nigh, and it overtaketh the world as a bthief in the night

[LDS Guy 1986]

Well, I don't know that the scriptures mean that no one will ever know when He comes. The scriptures also say, as has been said already, that God will do nothing except He tell his prophets. I don't think we can ignore that scripture in this discussion.

You are right, we cannot ignore you taking Amos 3:7 out of context!

Amos 3:7 does not require God to tell prophets everything he is doing, in fact Amos 3:7 has nothing to do with God even doing anything. Read Amos 3:2-3 it says " . . . therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

God is about to punish Israel because the people have broken there covenants with God by living in sin. Verses 4 - 6 poetically expounds on the lesson of verse 3.

Then we come to verse 7, (the most taken out of context verse in LDS, IMO) "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets"

So God just got done explaining that he will punish Israel for breaking there commandment's in verses 2-6, so now comes the how. How will God punish Israel? "Surely the Lord God will do nothing," this is there punishment as we are told throughout the OT, when Israel rejects God he does nothing for them. He no longer provides for them, he no longer protects them from there enemies. God's punishment for Israel has always been to do nothing to help them, he allows them to try and do it on there own, fail, get conquered, humble themselves and repent.

So look at the context here the doing nothing is referring to Go's punishment of Israel, not to this false idea that God cannot do something without telling a prophet.

Let's look at the second part of that verse though, after the comma it says, "but he revealeth his secret (not this is one secret not many) to his servants the prophets (not this is plural meaning many people have received this secret).

So the end days is not this secret, I can tell you that, God hasn't been telling all the prophets the date of the end of the world throughout all time. This makes no sense, so you can only assume this if you don't take read the verse in context.

Now let's look at what is going on, Israel has rejected God and turned to sinful ways, there is a term of this that we talk about in the Church, Great Apostasy!

So Amos is living in a time of Great Apostasy, or spiritual darkness, now what is the secret that God sends to his prophets when the world is in Apostasy or Spiritual darkness?

THE GOSPEL!!!!! He did it with, Moses, did it with Amos, did it with Christ, and did it with Joseph Smith. Whenever spiritual darkness or Great Apostasy covers the Earth God sends his secret to the prophets! The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This isn't some moratorium on God, this is God's mercy, he will no longer do anything for his chosen people who reject them, except send his secret (the Gospel) to his servants the prophets!

This is why you need to read the whole Bible not just a single verse, you can make the bible say anything with a single verse.

Example:

This is the words of Christ from Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" he goes on to say in verse 26 "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children

[LDS Guy 1986]

I think way too little is known by the members about what our leaders and scriptures have said on this subject

RE: thief in the night

http://lds.org/scrip....4-5?lang=eng#3

That to me and apparently the D&C student manual,

the thief in the night is only referring to those who are unprepared. Again, I'm shocked that LDS culture/basic doctrine is so naive on this subject of such great importance. A few years ago I started looking into it more and realized that what we as a culture believe and what our scripture and leaders teach are quite distinct. Very interesting and a little sad/scary too.

Being prepared for a thief to come DOES NOT mean that you know the hour he his coming, being prepared means to be always ready and on constant alert for his arrival!

To be a child of the light means that you are constantly prepared for the return of Christ, so when he returns at the unknown hour we are not shocked (or unprepared) by his return (like the wicked will be) but ready for his return!

THE SCRIPTURES NEVER EVER SAY THAT WE WILL BE FOREWARNED OF THE HOUR OF THE RETURN OF CHRIST!

[Hughes]

The coming for the saints as a thief in the night refers to the rapture. The second coming of Christ in power with all his angels will not be a surprise, as the tribulation will have started at that point already.

[LDS Guy 1986]

The coming for the saints as a thief in the night refers to the rapture. The second coming of Christ in power with all his angels will not be a surprise, as the tribulation will have started at that point already.

The rapture is not in the Bible, so the coming like a thief in the night cannot refer to man made doctrine that is against the teachings of the Bible.

[bluebell]

You are right, we cannot ignore you taking Amos 3:7 out of context!

No, i don't believe i am.

And, there's no need for the exclamation mark. It makes the post come off sounding hysterical.

[bluebell]

The coming for the saints as a thief in the night refers to the rapture. The second coming of Christ in power with all his angels will not be a surprise, as the tribulation will have started at that point already.

Are there biblical references that support this idea?

[LDS Guy 1986]

No, i don't believe i am.

And, there's no need for the exclamation mark. It makes the post come off sounding hysterical.

Did you read anything I said, or do you just think discussion means to say no and that's it!

Your out of context and I showed it, you can't just say no, where is your references, your evidence?

This is a discussion forum not a denial forum.

[bluebell]

Did you read anything I said, or do you just think discussion means to say no and that's it!

Your out of context and I showed it, you can't just say no, where is your references, your evidence?

This is a discussion forum not a denial forum.

I don't see the point of discussing it with you LDS guy. It wouldn't be a positive discussion for either of us so it seems best just to let it be.

[Hughes]

The rapture is not in the Bible, so the coming like a thief in the night cannot refer to man made doctrine that is against the teachings of the Bible.

Indeed it is. See below.

Are there biblical references that support this idea?

1 Thess. 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Matt. 24:40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Luke 17:34 "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Indeed it is. See below.

1 Thess. 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Matt. 24:40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Luke 17:34 "I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

[Hughes]

Where in any of these scriptures does it say Christ will have a secret second coming before the tribulation to save the "elect Christians"?

The rapture is a made up thing (made during the protestant reformations), 1 Thess and Luke refer to the morning of the First Resurrection AFTER the tribulation, the righteous dead and living meet Christ in the AIR (note 1 thess 4:17 says air not heaven) and descend down with him as he comes to cleans the Earth and establish his throne on Earth!

Your pastor lied to you when he said you will be whisked before the tribulation, that is not taught in the Bible anywhere. If it was don't you think it would say that Christ came 3 times?

I invite you to read revelations, it says Christ comes one time AFTER the tribulation, there is no mention by John any pre-tribulation rapture, don't you think he would of added that little tidbit when he was shown the end days?

But John didn't write that down because it WILL NOT happen, the Saints will experience the tribulation like everyone else. God is not a respecter of persons, ever.

I know it is hard to accept such things, it took me some time to figure this out for myself. I too had listened to the clever words of protestant pastors instead of reading the Bible myself but if you read the Bible you know the truth the Saints are present in the tribulation proclaiming the Gospel in hopes of saving the few who will repent and follow Christ during the reign of the Anti-Christ.

First, the rapture isn't the second coming. Meeting Jesus in the clouds doesn't equal Jesus coming to earth.

Second, there are some who believe as you do, that the rapture (catching away) doesn't occur until the end of the tribulation period. I don't agree with that position, as it says, it will be like the days of Noah. People will be doing things like they always did, marrying etc. If it was after or during the tribulation period, people wouldn't be doing that. They'd be hunkered down defending themselves or looking for a place to hide. And it wouldn't be like a thief in the night, because the battle of Armageddon isn't hidden or a surprise at that point.

[LDS Guy 1986]

First, the rapture isn't the second coming. Meeting Jesus in the clouds doesn't equal Jesus coming to earth.

Second, there are some who believe as you do, that the rapture (catching away) doesn't occur until the end of the tribulation period. I don't agree with that position, as it says, it will be like the days of Noah. People will be doing things like they always did, marrying etc. If it was after or during the tribulation period, people wouldn't be doing that. They'd be hunkered down defending themselves or looking for a place to hide. And it wouldn't be like a thief in the night, because the battle of Armageddon isn't hidden or a surprise at that point.

Wow, well best to you, it's not biblical at all, unless you wish to add to the Book of Revelations! Heard according to Rev 18:22 that's not so hot an idea, but hats off to you if that's your thing!

[Hughes]

Wow, well best to you, it's not biblical at all, unless you wish to add to the Book of Revelations! Heard according to Rev 18:22 that's not so hot an idea, but hats off to you if that's your thing!

Thanks. Since I didn't add anything, only quoted scripture and mentioned two different views of the rapture.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Thanks. Since I didn't add anything, only quoted scripture and mentioned two different views of the rapture.

Yeah but your scriptures do not mention a rapture, only a gathering of the Saints when Christ returns to destroy the wicked, and like I said the only way you can believe in a pre-tribulation rapture is to add to the Book of Revelation, if you want to add the curse of the Book of Revelation to you name by doing so go ahead.

Other wise show me the contextual pre tribulation rapture in revelations.

You do know that before 1748 there was no such teaching as a rapture, that it is made up by men, it is not a teaching of Jesus Christ, or any of his Apostle.

Look at the doctrinal history section of the Rapture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

It's added to the scriptures by men over 1000 years after Christ and it is only accomplished through ignoring the prophesies of the Book of Revelations and taking other verses out of context.

[Hughes]

Yeah but your scriptures do not mention a rapture, only a gathering of the Saints when Christ returns to destroy the wicked, and like I said the only way you can believe in a pre-tribulation rapture is to add to the Book of Revelation, if you want to add the curse of the Book of Revelation to you name by doing so go ahead.

Other wise show me the contextual pre tribulation rapture in revelations.

You do know that before 1748 there was no such teaching as a rapture, that it is made up by men, it is not a teaching of Jesus Christ, or any of his Apostle.

Look at the doctrinal history section of the Rapture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

It's added to the scriptures by men over 1000 years after Christ and it is only accomplished through ignoring the prophesies of the Book of Revelations and taking other verses out of context.

You'll notice in the book of Revelation that the church isn't mentioned once the judgements start hitting. Why is that I wonder?

Call it meeting Jesus in the clouds if you don't like the word Rapture. It's in there.

[LDS Guy 1986]

You'll notice in the book of Revelation that the church isn't mentioned once the judgements start hitting. Why is that I wonder?

Call it meeting Jesus in the clouds if you don't like the word Rapture. It's in there.

actually it's meeting in the air according the scriptures not the clouds.

Also if the Church isn't mentioned after the start of the tribulation why are the people of God being called out of Babylon AFTER the tribulation has begun in Revelations 18:4?

I guess only some of the worthy Christians get taken in the unmentioned rapture of Revelations?

Or maybe it never happened, and the gathering refers to the miraculous gathering of the righteous from all over the world to Zion in anticipation of the imminent return of Jesus Christ and the Bible tells us will happen!

Added by Edit:

Here is a new thread so this one isn't clogged up by us! http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/53642-is-the-doctrine-of-the-rapture-biblical/

I will be more than glad to continue this discussion there.