Joseph Smith Today?

[TAO]

Hi Tao,

Remember when the disciples of Jesus told him about someone that was not part of them healing the sick in the name of Jesus? Jesus told them to leave the other one alone, and did not reject the other one.

Wanting to be the "only ones" who have revelation is not a scriptural idea.

Jesus also told his disciples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod. Not all bread, though it may look good, may be the same.

I don't think they are warning because they desire to be the only ones - I think they are warning because of tough times that are coming, that I do.

If John Koyle had revelations on how to change things in the church, etc-- then you would definitely have a point. But since the work that he was given was completely different than the work of the church, then there is no reason to reject Koyle's dreams in jealousy of the church leaders.

I am not rejecting it because of jealously of the church leaders. I am rejecting it because the church leaders have asked me to reject it.

Koyle's dreams should be judged on their own merits. Many on this board regularly claim that just because a church leader taught or did something in the past does not guarantee it is "church doctrine" or "church practice". So why cannot the church condemnations of John Koyle be given the same consideration?

Because until a GA says something along the lines that it can be considered, it cannot be considered.

By the way, I am certain than in virtually all large Christian religions you will find stories similar to what you told here. The story of itself does not conclusively prove the LDS church leaders have the same gift of revelation that the Prophet Joseph had.

Oh nah, I am certain they don't. I would say they all receive revelation differently, each and every one of them.

And their claim that because they are the legal successors of Joseph guarantees they have the gift does not prove it either. I accept that they are the legal successors of Joseph. I also accept D&C 107:81-84 and JST Mark 9:40-48 which clearly gives church members the right of legitimate dissent over them and all their claims.

D&C 28:2-7 says though, that all other speaking and teaching will be given of wisdom, not of commandment.

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, ^ano one shall be appointed to receive commandments and ^brevelations in this church excepting my servant ^cJoseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as ^dMoses.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as ^aAaron, to ^bdeclare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and ^cauthority unto the church.

4 And if thou art ^aled at any time by the Comforter to ^bspeak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not write by way of ^acommandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the ^akeys of the ^bmysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.

I remain convinced that when Joseph returns in our "Today" he will remove all the present LDS church general authorities.

Richard

Understand Richard, that I am not a closed revelation person - I believe it happens all over, it is a very open thing for me - but when the leaders of the church state that it is not revelation, I trust them so, that I do. I do not know much about John Koyle, nor about his circumstances, nor whether he was or was not excommunicated (there is some level of doubt upon that), but if the GA's tell me that he was not receiving revelation from God, I am going to trust them. Not that I'll bother believers about it - but I will maintain that reason as the one that I do not believe him if you know what I mean. Bothering other people is never good XD.

As for removing the current leadership - I don't think he will, but I think they will become much less necessary, and more emphasis will be place on local leadership so that way we can get all the temple work done and stuffs. If he does decide to remove them, it may be because he needs them to serve elsewhere, and he will be in their position. But yes... however he does it, it is good enough for me =).

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Ceeboo]

Where do you think Joseph Smith is currently?

My hope (like my hope with all others) is that he is with the Lord now, but I am never comfy casting my judgement where anyone who has passed is now.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Questing Beast]

I have to add, that "reincarnation" is a misleading term, almost devoid of definition anymore, so varied are the concepts entering into it.

So when we appeal to Eliza Roxy Snow, et al. the early Mormons who asserted a belief in reincarnation and said that Joseph Smith believed it as well, we are not saying anything definitive much less doctrinal.

My take on reincarnation is this: as we dream each night here as mortals, so too, as perfect immortals, we enter mortality in a virtual dream state. We really do have only one life, not many lives: just as we really do have countless dreams, yet only one dreaming mind. I do not believe in any sort of "wrath of God burning the wicked away until even their very identities are consumed and returned to their native elements, and begin again" (a paraphrase of BY). I believe that from the moment of my first awareness of the egocentric Self, I have always been and will always be a perfect being. But my understanding must grow with experience. And mortality provides everything requisite for gaining understanding/wisdom, without violating one iota of "God's" perfect creation. So there is no imperfection but there is our ignorance; which we are eternally eradicating through experience of a virtual opposition as we experience mortality in a virtual dream state; for many/most of us, over and over again. Perhaps those of us who already "get it" (know perfectly what Joy is), indulge in "reminder" or refresher courses in mortality: both to renew our appreciation of how joyful we really are as immortal beings, and/or to help those who are still gaining understanding: i.e. "we" take on roles to inject the opposition into the "the world" of mortals. It's just an idea....

[ELF1024]

Where is Mr. Smith now?

What is he doing now?

Anthing else I should have asked?

Moses and Joseph Smith are sneaking up behind Pope Leo IX and giving him an atomic wedgie.

Kidding, on a serious note, I assume that Joseph Smith is on a mission to those people in the Spirit World who didn't have a chance to accept the Gospel in Life. I expect that all of the Prophets are on such a mission to those who didn't have a chance to accept Christ.

[SilverKnight]

My hope (like my hope with all others) is that he is with the Lord now, but I am never comfy casting my judgement where anyone who has passed is now.

Peace,

Ceeboo

For a JS non-believer and Christian, that is a very generous opinion to have. Kudos.

The posters at CARM and CAF have no doubts where Joseph Smith currently resides.

[kitmarlow]

I have to add, that "reincarnation" is a misleading term, almost devoid of definition anymore, so varied are the concepts entering into it.

So when we appeal to Eliza Roxy Snow, et al. the early Mormons who asserted a belief in reincarnation and said that Joseph Smith believed it as well, we are not saying anything definitive much less doctrinal.

My take on reincarnation is this: as we dream each night here as mortals, so too, as perfect immortals, we enter mortality in a virtual dream state. We really do have only one life, not many lives: just as we really do have countless dreams, yet only one dreaming mind. I do not believe in any sort of "wrath of God burning the wicked away until even their very identities are consumed and returned to their native elements, and begin again" (a paraphrase of BY). I believe that from the moment of my first awareness of the egocentric Self, I have always been and will always be a perfect being. But my understanding must grow with experience. And mortality provides everything requisite for gaining understanding/wisdom, without violating one iota of "God's" perfect creation. So there is no imperfection but there is our ignorance; which we are eternally eradicating through experience of a virtual opposition as we experience mortality in a virtual dream state; for many/most of us, over and over again. Perhaps those of us who already "get it" (know perfectly what Joy is), indulge in "reminder" or refresher courses in mortality: both to renew our appreciation of how joyful we really are as immortal beings, and/or to help those who are still gaining understanding: i.e. "we" take on roles to inject the opposition into the "the world" of mortals. It's just an idea....

Interesting ideas. I have often had the feeling that I've done this before, either in this world or some other. And I have a family member who is very active devout LDS who believes in what he calls "multiple probations". But for some the idea is "freaky", it can be frightening.

[3DOP]

(I was going to not ask this but I am so very curious that I decided to go for it) (Respect intended, promise)

Are you all cool/comfy with this hymn?

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

Ceeboo...Hey...Hi...Good seeing you as always

Hey. I don't like the hymn either. But maybe I would if I were Mormon. Instead, being Catholic, I like...

Hail Hail Queen enthroned above, O Maria

Hail Mother of Mercy and of Love, O Maria

Triumph all ye Cherubim

Sing with us ye Seraphim

Heaven and Earth resound the hymn,

Ave, Ave, Ave Maria

I truly think the Restored Gospel is wrong. I think they assumed too much Protestant historical propaganda against our faith was true. They strike out when they try to prove apostasy to me. I am not in the least drawn to the Restored Gospel...no closet doubts I promise. But I think it is okay for them to have a song lauding Joseph Smith. They know he isn't God just like we know Mary isn't God, no matter how much anti-Catholic or anti-LDS detractors try to assert otherwise.

3DOP

[ELF1024]

Ceeboo...Hey...Hi...Good seeing you as always

Hey. I don't like the hymn either. But maybe I would if I were Mormon. Instead, being Catholic, I like...

Hail Hail Queen enthroned above, O Maria

Hail Mother of Mercy and of Love, O Maria

Triumph all ye Cherubim

Sing with us ye Seraphim

Heaven and Earth resound the hymn,

Ave, Ave, Ave Maria

I truly think the Restored Gospel is wrong. I think they assumed too much Protestant historical propaganda against our faith was true. They strike out when they try to prove apostasy to me. I am not in the least drawn to the Restored Gospel...no closet doubts I promise. But I think it is okay for them to have a song lauding Joseph Smith. They know he isn't God just like we know Mary isn't God, no matter how much anti-Catholic or anti-LDS detractors try to assert otherwise.

3DOP

I would assume there is a Jewish Hymn praising Moses for rescue-ing them from Egypt...

[SilverKnight]

Are you all cool/comfy with this hymn?

Absolutely!

Mostly because it use Scotland The Brave as its melody, but also because I know of the hymn's nifty historic origin.

[zerinus]

BTW, your thoughts/view (Joseph is in Heaven with Jesus) seems to be at odds with your LDS brethren in this thread.

So what are they saying then? Are they saying Joseph is in hell, or what?

[LDS Guy 1986]

(I was going to not ask this but I am so very curious that I decided to go for it) (Respect intended, promise)

Are you all cool/comfy with this hymn?

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

Yes, I think it is a wonderful hymn in memory of the Prophet of the Restoration.

[erichard]

Hi Richard,

Please forgive my never-Mo ignorance.

Are you saying that Joseph is the one who will return at the Second Coming? (With Jesus? Alone?)

Peace,

Ceeboo

Hi you never-Mo Ceeboo.

You need an explanation.

When the Prophet Joseph came, even though he was an Israelite of the tribe of Ephraim, the church which he set up was set up among the Gentiles. That is because at the time of Christ the Lord turned against the house of Israel (read the OT and see why) and gave a dispensation to the Gentiles.

And it was still the "time of the Gentiles" when Joseph restored the church. This is regular Mormon doctrine, by the way.

But in the Book of Mormon and other places it was made very clear that eventually in the last days the Lord would finally forgive his ancient covenant people Israel and restore to them ALL their former blessings. This would come at a time when the Gentiles had fully rejected the fulness of the Gospel.

To prepare for that, the Lord set up Patriarchs in the church so that members of the tribes of Israel could be identified by tribe. And how could Israel be restored into twelve tribes unless the members of the tribes are identified?

This latter-day SHIFT from Gentile to Israel is clearly predicted in 1 Nephi 13:42 and 3 Nephi 16:7-13.

It only makes sense that the John Koyle dream in which Joseph returns and removes all the General Authorities will come about at the time of this SHIFT.

The GAs which are removed are the Gentiles that have had their chance and failed. They will be replaced with Israelites who will do the Lord's will, and eventually bring in Zion and its laws.

This SHIFT will take place before the second coming of Christ.

Richard

[Ceeboo]

Hey again Silver.

For a JS non-believer and Christian, that is a very generous opinion to have. Kudos.

Thanks Bro, but it is not really an opinion, it is indeed a hope.

The posters at CARM and CAF have no doubts where Joseph Smith currently resides.

Yes, I have noticed this enormous need/desire for many of us to freely and wildly cast our personal judgement upon one another (Perhaps CARM and CAF are not alone in this odd human dilema?)

Anywho, I do really hope that Joseph is with the Lord now (who knows, maybe Joseph, like many others including Ceeboo, will get/have already received one heck of a scolding from Almighty?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Ceeboo]

Hi you never-Mo Ceeboo.

You need an explanation.

When the Prophet Joseph came, even though he was an Israelite of the tribe of Ephraim, the church which he set up was set up among the Gentiles. That is because at the time of Christ the Lord turned against the house of Israel (read the OT and see why) and gave a dispensation to the Gentiles.

And it was still the "time of the Gentiles" when Joseph restored the church. This is regular Mormon doctrine, by the way.

But in the Book of Mormon and other places it was made very clear that eventually in the last days the Lord would finally forgive his ancient covenant people Israel and restore to them ALL their former blessings. This would come at a time when the Gentiles had fully rejected the fulness of the Gospel.

To prepare for that, the Lord set up Patriarchs in the church so that members of the tribes of Israel could be identified by tribe. And how could Israel be restored into twelve tribes unless the members of the tribes are identified?

This latter-day SHIFT from Gentile to Israel is clearly predicted in 1 Nephi 13:42 and 3 Nephi 16:7-13.

It only makes sense that the John Koyle dream in which Joseph returns and removes all the General Authorities will come about at the time of this SHIFT.

The GAs which are removed are the Gentiles that have had their chance and failed. They will be replaced with Israelites who will do the Lord's will, and eventually bring in Zion and its laws.

This SHIFT will take place before the second coming of Christ.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Got it (Thanks for the reply)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Sevenbak]

Hi Richard,

Got it (Thanks for the reply)

Peace,

Ceeboo

Ceeboo, while you got it, please don't think that is what you get.

His viewpoint is from a small apostate group that doesn't believe the living prophets are doing the Lord's will and that they will get the boot and be replaced with like believers in the future.

Cheers

[Ceeboo]

Ceeboo, while you got it, please don't think that is what you get.

His viewpoint is from a small apostate group that doesn't believe the living prophets are doing the Lord's will and that they will get the boot and be replaced with like believers in the future.

Cheers

Hi Seven,

Yes, I understood this

Thanks for the clarity added.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Sevenbak]

I figured you did, just wanted to go on record.