Joseph Smith Today?

[Questing Beast]

Good morning all,

Over the weekend, I had an interesting converstaion with a few neighbors/friends concerning our perspective beliefs/opinions/thoughts about those who have passed (Polycarp, Hitler and Luther are a few examples of the many people that came up during this conversation)

This got me thinking about what your opinions/thoughts/perspectives are concerning Mr. Smith.

If you would like to share your views with me/us:

Where is Mr. Smith now?

What is he doing now?

Anthing else I should have asked?

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

Joseph Smith is just one persona of a particular "brother" of mine. How many times has "he" gone through this mortality thing? Nobody knows inside of mortality how many times any one of us has gone through this before. Some of us "get it" the first time and others are slow learners and must keep going "back in" again and again. But eternity is long enough for everyone to "get it" eventually

I have taken to the biggest "view" of Existence that is possible to conceive of. This does not allow that for everyone a SINGLE mortal life decides everything for the rest of eternity. That doctrine is just old-school fear mongering to make people behave (i.e. controlling them).

In my imagination (what else can I go on, being all alone "down here", after all?) everyone is created perfect. I imagine imperfect, even demoniacal beings from "conception" (i.e. from the moment that "God" causes them to be), but at least in this world that does not happen: and I entertain the notion that reality does not include anything less than perfection where immortality is concerned. So, being perfect, we have eternity to learn in. How to learn, if there is no contrast, no imperfection, no opposition? Not possible. So, a venue where less than perfection exists is provided, even essential, ergo unavoidable. We call this mortality: so-called because it is dogged by dying and death of everything "there". We inhabit this realm for brief periods of time (perhaps when we sleep and dream ourselves "there"). But the experience does nothing to our perfection; it is not affected by being mortal for a span of time. What we do get out of it is contrast, which without it would not be possible in a perfect state of existence: and contrast is the great teacher. By experiencing opposition we learn to distinguish between Joy and misery. And it is the purpose of "God" to create joyful beings.

Imagination comes up with all manner of "possibilities". Most of it we dismiss as "impossible", i.e. mere fancy. But I ascribe to the notion that our sapience is connected directly to "God's": and that the things we dismiss as "impossible" are actually revelatory of "God's" capacity: in other words: what "God" is capable of, but for reasons of self-imposed limits in this world, "God" does not do those things - and even promises not to. So things like a god that lies, and delights in torture, and creates demons, and inflicts all of this upon hapless beings (us) for eternity, are certainly possible, but do not happen because "God" has chosen not to be that kind of deity....

[Tribunal]

The same sources we have the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, if there was any additional resources then they couldn't convert. Conversion requires faith if the SW had any more evidence of the existence of Christ than morality then Baptisms for the Dead couldn't work properly.

That doesn't make sense. If Jesus is in the Spirit World, and all those prophets who wrote the Gospel are in the Spirit World, wouldn't all them spirits have more information about the Atonement than we do in our world? Surely Lehi is there and would know about the Book of Lehi? I haven't read that portion of the restored Gospel, have you?

[LDS Guy 1986]

That doesn't make sense. If Jesus is in the Spirit World, and all those prophets who wrote the Gospel are in the Spirit World, wouldn't all them spirits have more information about the Atonement than we do in our world? Surely Lehi is there and would know about the Book of Lehi? I haven't read that portion of the restored Gospel, have you?

That book is still part of the restored gospel, just part that we don't have revealed to us yet. Just because we do not have it on the Earth doesn't mean it isn't part of Christ restored Gospel.

[erichard]

Knowing that he claimed as a Bishop to receive prophesy for the entire world, and that this teachings of his is against the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, is all I need to reject and rebuke his teachings.

The fact that he was excommunicated from the Church for his "revelations" is all the evidence one needs against Mr. Koyle IMO.

Hi,

I still believe that Bishop Koyle had a spiritual gift to prepare a special Mine. That is all he ever claimed. He absolutely never claimed to receive "prophesy for the entire world". His dreams dealt with world events because the work he was engaged in related to those events. He never tried in the least to set the church in order.

Can you not see that by putting Koyle in a position that he never claimed himself you are simply giving yourself a reason to deny the spirit of revelation and prophecy? But how wise is that?

Deny not the spirit of revelation, nor the spirit of prophecy, for wo unto him that denieth these things; --D&C 11:25

Rather than automatically denying something one knows little about, would it not be wise to not be judgmental about the matter until one really studies and prays about it? Think of all those who deny the Book of Mormon without giving it a fair examination.

If the Lord calls a prophet independent of His Gentile church to dig a Mine and prepare it for a future use by the Lord, why cannot the Lord do such a thing? And if he guides that prophet with a gift of dreams that foresees future events, why would one be opposed to such a thing?

It reminds me of the Pharisees who hated Jesus because he had spiritual gifts and they didn't. Good heavens, they should have been happy that someone was being blessed with spiritual gifts.

Another question that should be asked about Joseph Smith is this:

In the spirit world most people die and go to spirit prison with others like themselves. Some, however, go to Paradise which is a separate part of the spirit world.

Those spirits who go to Paradise are with the Holy Ghost, and work directly under the Holy Ghost's direction. Christ is resurrected so I would not think he remains in paradise, but may come there.

Since I believe that Joseph was a true prophet, then I believe that Joseph went to paradise.

So the question is: Is Joseph there with all of the faithful Latter-day Saints, or are the majority of the Saints not in paradise but gathered together in the spirit world preparing to enter into paradise?

Richard

[LeSellers]

Ceeboo:

"Are you saying that Mr. Smith and Jesus are in the same place now doing the same things now?

Both are in Spirit world waiting, preparing fot the Second Coming?

Are they coming together (Jesus and Joseph?)".

Better?

"Better", yes, but why make extra work for yourself? Just click the "Reply" button at the bottom of the message and then type your response. It's not that hard.

Lehi

[TAO]

Another question that should be asked about Joseph Smith is this:

In the spirit world most people die and go to spirit prison with others like themselves. Some, however, go to Paradise which is a separate part of the spirit world.

Those spirits who go to Paradise are with the Holy Ghost, and work directly under the Holy Ghost's direction. Christ is resurrected so I would not think he remains in paradise, but may come there.

Since I believe that Joseph was a true prophet, then I believe that Joseph went to paradise.

So the question is: Is Joseph there with all of the faithful Latter-day Saints, or are the majority of the Saints not in paradise but gathered together in the spirit world preparing to enter into paradise?

Richard

There is a link between spirit paradise, and spirit prison, a gate so to say, only those who are free at that point, may travel the gate. The missionaries use that gate to go to spiritual prison to teach, I believe - it isn't a one-way-entrance, and people from spiritual paradise can go to spiritual prison to teach.

Whether the majority of the Saints are currently in paradise right now, or are rather close doesn't matter, I think, because either way we will be going the same way they did. We will have to earn spiritual paradise if we are not worthy, and if we are worthy, we will go there. Many will teach, But I think we need not be concerned about who's where, because who is worthy will be where he needs to be.

Best Wishes,

TAO =)

[LDS Guy 1986]

Can you not see that by putting Koyle in a position that he never claimed himself you are simply giving yourself a reason to deny the spirit of revelation and prophecy? But how wise is that?

Well his alleged dreams do give revelation for the world, and this cannot come from a Bishop, only from a Prophet as the scriptures tell us.

If his "revelations" were done properly and had the authority of God why was he excommunicated?

[zerinus]

Good morning all,

Over the weekend, I had an interesting converstaion with a few neighbors/friends concerning our perspective beliefs/opinions/thoughts about those who have passed (Polycarp, Hitler and Luther are a few examples of the many people that came up during this conversation)

This got me thinking about what your opinions/thoughts/perspectives are concerning Mr. Smith.

If you would like to share your views with me/us:

Where is Mr. Smith now?

What is he doing now?

I prefer to answer gospel related questions by quoting, where possible, directly from the scriptures; and here is one that answers your question:

D&C 136

:

37 . . . to Joseph Smith, whom I did call upon by mine angels, my ministering servants, and by mine own voice out of the heavens, to bring forth my work;

38 Which foundation he did lay, and

was faithful; and I took him to myself

.

39 Many have marveled because of his death; but it was needful that he should seal his testimony with his blood, that he might be honored and the wicked might be condemned.

It says that Jesus took him "unto myself," which means that he is now in heaven, where God and Christ are, and where all the prophets and saints who die go to.

Anthing else I should have asked?

Well, I have a question: What did you have in mind by asking that question? What kind of an answer did you really expect a Mormon to give?

[cinepro]

Good morning all,

Over the weekend, I had an interesting converstaion with a few neighbors/friends concerning our perspective beliefs/opinions/thoughts about those who have passed (Polycarp, Hitler and Luther are a few examples of the many people that came up during this conversation)

This got me thinking about what your opinions/thoughts/perspectives are concerning Mr. Smith.

If you would like to share your views with me/us:

Where is Mr. Smith now?

What is he doing now?

Anthing else I should have asked?

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

I don't know where the non-physical part of Joseph is right now.

[Sevenbak]

Hi,

I still believe that Bishop Koyle had a spiritual gift to prepare a special Mine. That is all he ever claimed. He absolutely never claimed to receive "prophesy for the entire world". His dreams dealt with world events because the work he was engaged in related to those events. He never tried in the least to set the church in order.

Can you not see that by putting Koyle in a position that he never claimed himself you are simply giving yourself a reason to deny the spirit of revelation and prophecy? But how wise is that?

Deny not the spirit of revelation, nor the spirit of prophecy, for wo unto him that denieth these things; --D&C 11:25

Rather than automatically denying something one knows little about, would it not be wise to not be judgmental about the matter until one really studies and prays about it? Think of all those who deny the Book of Mormon without giving it a fair examination.

If the Lord calls a prophet independent of His Gentile church to dig a Mine and prepare it for a future use by the Lord, why cannot the Lord do such a thing? And if he guides that prophet with a gift of dreams that foresees future events, why would one be opposed to such a thing?

It reminds me of the Pharisees who hated Jesus because he had spiritual gifts and they didn't. Good heavens, they should have been happy that someone was being blessed with spiritual gifts.

Danger, Danger Will Robinson!!

Harold B. Lee, knowing that even long after Bishop Koyle had died, many like yourself were still following his "dream", thought it important enough to bring it up again during the Priesthood Session of Conference, in 1972. What you do with his council is up to you, but I'd be really careful.

LDS General Conference 1972 October Priesthood Harold B. Lee

A Warning Voice

The next matter I would like to speak of, for just a moment, is set forth in a letter from the First Presidency, which was sent out in August 1913 as a warning to the members of the Church and which was repeated by some of the leaders nearer our time and could well be repeated today. I read this letter from the First Presidency [Pres. Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, Charles W. Penrose] in 1913. It has been entitled "A Warning Voice."

"To the Officers and Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:

"From the days of Hiram Page (D&C 28), at different periods there have been manifestations from delusive spirits to members of the Church. Sometimes these have come to men and women who because of transgression become easy prey to the Arch-Deceiver. At other times people who pride themselves on their strict observance of the rules and ordinances and ceremonies of the Church are led astray by false spirits, who exercise an influence so imitative of that which proceeds from a Divine source that even these persons, who think they are 'the very elect' ( Matt. 24:24), find it difficult to discern the essential difference. Satan himself has transformed himself to be apparently 'an angel of light.'( 2 Cor. 11:14)

"When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration conveys something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities, Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear. Also, they should understand that directions for the guidance of the Church will come, by revelation, through the head. All faithful members are entitled to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for themselves, their families, and for those over whom they are appointed and ordained to preside. But anything at discord with that which comes from God through the head of the Church is not to be received as authoritative or reliable. In secular as well as spiritual affairs, Saints may receive Divine guidance and revelation affecting themselves, but this does not convey authority to direct others, and is not to be accepted when contrary to Church covenants, doctrine or discipline, or to known facts, demonstrated truths, or good common sense. No person has the right to induce his fellow members of the Church to engage in speculations or take stock in ventures of any kind on the specious claim of Divine revelation or vision or dream, especially when it is in opposition to the voice of recognized authority, local or general. The Lord's Church 'is a house of order.'( D&C 132:) It is not governed by individual gifts or manifestations, but by the order and power of the Holy Priesthood as sustained by the voice and vote of the Church in its appointed conferences.

"The history of the Church records many pretended revelations by impostors or zealots who believed in the manifestations they sought to lead other persons to accept, and in every instance, disappointment, sorrow and disaster have resulted therefrom. Financial loss and sometimes utter ruin have followed. We feel it our duty to warn the Latter-day Saints against fake mining schemes which have no warrant for success beyond the professed spiritual manifestations of their projectors and the influence gained over the excited minds of their victims. We caution the Saints against investing money or property in shares of stock which bring no profit to anyone but those who issue and trade in them. Financial schemes to make money for the alleged purpose of 'redeeming Zion' or providing means for the 'salvation of the dead' or other seemingly worthy objects, should not deceive anyone acquainted with the order of the Church, and will result only in waste of time and labor, which might be devoted now to doing something tangible and worthy and of record on earth and in heaven." (Messages of the First Presidency, compiled by James R. Clark [bookcraft, 1970], Vol. 4, pp. 285-86.)

[erichard]

Well his alleged dreams do give revelation for the world, and this cannot come from a Bishop, only from a Prophet as the scriptures tell us.

If his "revelations" were done properly and had the authority of God why was he excommunicated?

Hi,

You are assuming that church leaders will never make serious mistakes. Maybe they were jealous of Bishop Koyle. The church is the gathering of Ephraim, and the major sin of Ephraim in the past was pride.

It is simply not scripturally a "done deal" that the leadership of the Lord's Gentile church are guaranteed to never get caught up in the world and lose the Celestial spirit.

In D&C 3, the first Word of the Lord oracle in the D&C, the Lord warned Joseph:

4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.

5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.

6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God,

and have gone on in the persuasions of men.

--D&C 3

It is the nature of us all to go on in the persuasions of men. Joseph is the head of this dispensation. He had more faith than any of his successors, yet he had problems with this. Surely one can believe that all the church leaders should liken this scripture to themselves.

Since the Lord promised to try the Saints in "all things" before bringing his people to Zion (D&C 136:31), why would one think the Saints will not be tried with leaders who, like Joseph, go on in the persuasions of men for a season, but unlike Joseph do not repent of it?

Richard

[Sevenbak]

Hi,

You are assuming that church leaders will never make serious mistakes. Maybe they were jealous of Bishop Koyle.

I'm going to give one more, and then I'll be still. I've said my peace.

When Shall These Things Be?

By Elder M. Russell Ballard

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Ensign, Dec. 1996

"Some Latter-day Saints may not be aware of it, but there are "false prophets" rising within and without the Church. They believe they have had revelations, that they know something the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles don't know. We need to be very careful of such people. Members who are ever approached by anyone claiming special authority or revelation from God outside the sustained priesthood authority should turn and run from them as fast as they can. The Savior said that in the last days even the very elect could be pulled away from the truth by such false prophets.

A few groups have drifted away from the gospel under the direction of those who claim to have received special instruction through personal revelation,... Sadly, there are those who have chosen to follow such individuals, who in turn lead them directly away from the principles of truth and righteousness. Perhaps that is why it is so interesting to me that when the Master was asked about the sign of His Second Coming and the end of the world, He first responded by warning His listeners to beware of false prophets.

Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot. Let me tell you why. Every week that I am in town, I attend a meeting of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve on the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple. If you could see the process by which decision and direction comes from that meeting, you would have a deep sense of confidence and comfort that the will of the Lord is being taught by the leaders of the Church.

So keep your eyes riveted on the leadership of the Church. While individuals may falter, the body of general Church leadership will remain steadfast and true. If someone tells you that they have received revelation that the First Presidency and the Twelve have not received, run away from them."

[kitmarlow]

Joseph Smith is just one persona of a particular "brother" of mine. How many times has "he" gone through this mortality thing? Nobody knows inside of mortality how many times any one of us has gone through this before. Some of us "get it" the first time and others are slow learners and must keep going "back in" again and again. But eternity is long enough for everyone to "get it" eventually

I have taken to the biggest "view" of Existence that is possible to conceive of. This does not allow that for everyone a SINGLE mortal life decides everything for the rest of eternity. That doctrine is just old-school fear mongering to make people behave (i.e. controlling them).

In my imagination (what else can I go on, being all alone "down here", after all?) everyone is created perfect. I imagine imperfect, even demoniacal beings from "conception" (i.e. from the moment that "God" causes them to be), but at least in this world that does not happen: and I entertain the notion that reality does not include anything less than perfection where immortality is concerned. So, being perfect, we have eternity to learn in. How to learn, if there is no contrast, no imperfection, no opposition? Not possible. So, a venue where less than perfection exists is provided, even essential, ergo unavoidable. We call this mortality: so-called because it is dogged by dying and death of everything "there". We inhabit this realm for brief periods of time (perhaps when we sleep and dream ourselves "there"). But the experience does nothing to our perfection; it is not affected by being mortal for a span of time. What we do get out of it is contrast, which without it would not be possible in a perfect state of existence: and contrast is the great teacher. By experiencing opposition we learn to distinguish between Joy and misery. And it is the purpose of "God" to create joyful beings.

Imagination comes up with all manner of "possibilities". Most of it we dismiss as "impossible", i.e. mere fancy. But I ascribe to the notion that our sapience is connected directly to "God's": and that the things we dismiss as "impossible" are actually revelatory of "God's" capacity: in other words: what "God" is capable of, but for reasons of self-imposed limits in this world, "God" does not do those things - and even promises not to. So things like a god that lies, and delights in torture, and creates demons, and inflicts all of this upon hapless beings (us) for eternity, are certainly possible, but do not happen because "God" has chosen not to be that kind of deity....

Very interesting, Questing Beast. Where did you get this? Is there a source, or is it all your own? I like the idea. I have heard similar ideas/suggestions from Heber C. Kimball quotes, also Eliza Snow (I think, I can't really remember).

[erichard]

I'm going to give one more, and then I'll be still. I've said my peace.

...

I appreciate your efforts Sevenbak. I do not doubt your sincerity.

However, even though you believe you and brother Ballard (who I am sure is a very good person) are defending the church and the gospel, I am afraid there is something much more human going on. The politics of men. You must not realize it.

When men in the flesh with blood in their veins (the only kind of men that are in the world) seek to place themselves not only above some criticism and controversy, but above ANY POSSIBLE criticism and controversy-- then it is certain that what is really going on is politics.

None of us are above failing. There is simply no guarantee that the church leadership cannot lose the true spirit and go on-- like all the other churches-- doing many good works but not on the Rock of Revelation.

Good luck.

Richard

[TAO]

Richard, I would not be so sure that this is the politics of men - there have been other prophets, who have stated similar comments... this morning, I read a story from President Monson's book, about a time in which Preisdent Monson was in the Naval Reserve. Then in a matter of weeks, he was given a promotion and called to be a second counselor. Unsure of what he was to do, he went to Elder Harold B. Lee, and asked his advice... Elder Harold told him to turn down the promotion, and send a letter to the Naval Reserve asking them to release him. He did so... and things turned out okay... he was one of the last releases processed before the start of the Korean War. A few weeks after that, he was called to be a bishop of his ward. Shortly after, Harold B. Lee told him, something, that I think applies to this conversation... "There is safety, Tom, in following the servants of the Lord. Had you not followed the counsel I provided, difficult as it may have appeared to you at the time, you would not have been called by the Lord to be bishop of your ward."

I think there will be safety in following the servants of the Lord... and they have asked me not to go after others revelators... in them, I must trust, that I must, for I know they are safety and true.

Yours from an office chair, stuck sick in his room

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Sevenbak]

I appreciate your efforts Sevenbak. I do not doubt your sincerity.

However, even though you believe you and brother Ballard (who I am sure is a very good person) are defending the church and the gospel, I am afraid there is something much more human going on. The politics of men. You must not realize it.

When men in the flesh with blood in their veins (the only kind of men that are in the world) seek to place themselves not only above some criticism and controversy, but above ANY POSSIBLE criticism and controversy-- then it is certain that what is really going on is politics.

None of us are above failing. There is simply no guarantee that the church leadership cannot lose the true spirit and go on-- like all the other churches-- doing many good works but not on the Rock of Revelation.

Good luck.

Richard

erichard, It's not just "Brother" Ballard. (Is there a reason you don't call him Elder Ballard?), it's Presidents Lee, JSF, Heber J, Grant and others. They have all spoken against Bishop Koyle and his pitch man Kraut. It's apparently we're not going to agree on this. I strongly hold to Amos 3:7. The Lord does NOTHING without revealing his secrets to his servants the prophets. I believe even the very elect can be deceived. I also choose to follow the prophets, and the keys of authority that they hold. The warnings against Koyle have been clear. His excommunication, notwithstanding his second anointing, was the only option the Church had left when he continued his actions. They have been clear time and time again in warning the saints about him and his efforts.

If you don't believe in the church authority, why bother with the Church?

[Sevenbak]

Richard, I would not be so sure that this is the politics of men - there have been other prophets, who have stated similar comments... this morning, I read a story from President Monson's book, about a time in which Preisdent Monson was in the Naval Reserve. Then in a matter of weeks, he was given a promotion and called to be a second counselor. Unsure of what he was to do, he went to Elder Harold B. Lee, and asked his advice... Elder Harold told him to turn down the promotion, and send a letter to the Naval Reserve asking them to release him. He did so... and things turned out okay... he was one of the last releases processed before the start of the Korean War. A few weeks after that, he was called to be a bishop of his ward. Shortly after, Harold B. Lee told him, something, that I think applies to this conversation... "There is safety, Tom, in following the servants of the Lord. Had you not followed the counsel I provided, difficult as it may have appeared to you at the time, you would not have been called by the Lord to be bishop of your ward."

I think there will be safety in following the servants of the Lord... and they have asked me not to go after others revelators... in them, I must trust, that I must, for I know they are safety and true.

Yours from an office chair, stuck sick in his room

Best Wishes,

TAO

Thanks, you said it a lot more delicately than I did. I tend to come off a bit harsh.

[Questing Beast]

Very interesting, Questing Beast. Where did you get this? Is there a source, or is it all your own? I like the idea. I have heard similar ideas/suggestions from Heber C. Kimball quotes, also Eliza Snow (I think, I can't really remember).

Nothing is "all your own". None of us exists without a direct connection to "God"; and that connection/communication is to all sapient awareness, a "genetic memory", if you will.

The expression of this cosmology is "original" with me. But I am never surprised to discover the similarity, or even complete agreement in particular details, that I see in other cosmologies and theologies. I believe that this kind of bigger cosmology lies behind all personal religion. We should be thinking of "God" and Existence in the biggest way possible....

[Ceeboo]

Hi Zerinus,

Well, I have a question: What did you have in mind by asking that question?

I am not sure I had anything in mind, just curious as to what my LDS friends believed/thought regarding where/what Mr. Smith was/is doing now.

What kind of an answer did you really expect a Mormon to give?

I didn't expect to get any kind of answers (that is why I asked the question)

BTW, your thoughts/view (Joseph is in Heaven with Jesus) seems to be at odds with your LDS brethren in this thread.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[erichard]

...I think there will be safety in following the servants of the Lord... and they have asked me not to go after others revelators... in them, I must trust, that I must, for I know they are safety and true.

...

Hi Tao,

Remember when the disciples of Jesus told him about someone that was not part of them healing the sick in the name of Jesus? Jesus told them to leave the other one alone, and did not reject the other one.

Wanting to be the "only ones" who have revelation is not a scriptural idea.

If John Koyle had revelations on how to change things in the church, etc-- then you would definitely have a point. But since the work that he was given was completely different than the work of the church, then there is no reason to reject Koyle's dreams in jealousy of the church leaders.

Koyle's dreams should be judged on their own merits. Many on this board regularly claim that just because a church leader taught or did something in the past does not guarantee it is "church doctrine" or "church practice". So why cannot the church condemnations of John Koyle be given the same consideration?

By the way, I am certain than in virtually all large Christian religions you will find stories similar to what you told here. The story of itself does not conclusively prove the LDS church leaders have the same gift of revelation that the Prophet Joseph had.

And their claim that because they are the legal successors of Joseph guarantees they have the gift does not prove it either. I accept that they are the legal successors of Joseph. I also accept D&C 107:81-84 and JST Mark 9:40-48 which clearly gives church members the right of legitimate dissent over them and all their claims.

I remain convinced that when Joseph returns in our "Today" he will remove all the present LDS church general authorities.

Richard

[Ceeboo]

1. Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah.

Jesus' anointed, "that Prophet and Seer,"

Blessed to open the last dispensation;

Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

CHORUS.

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven,

Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain,

Mingling with God's he can plan for his brethren,

Death cannot conquer the hero again.

2. Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;

Honored and blest is his ever great name;

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,

Stain Illinois^[4], while the earth lauds his fame.

Hail to the Prophet, &c.

3. Great is his glory, and endless his priesthood,

Ever and ever the keys he will hold;

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,

Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Hail to the Prophet, &c.

4. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;

Earth must atone for the blood of that man!

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice,

Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.

Hail to the Prophet, &c.

(I was going to not ask this but I am so very curious that I decided to go for it) (Respect intended, promise)

Are you all cool/comfy with this hymn?

Thanks and peace,

Ceeboo

[Ceeboo]

I remain convinced that when Joseph returns in our "Today" he will remove all the present LDS church general authorities.

Richard

Hi Richard,

Please forgive my never-Mo ignorance.

Are you saying that Joseph is the one who will return at the Second Coming? (With Jesus? Alone?)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[LeSellers]

Hi Richard,

Please forgive my never-Mo ignorance.

Are you saying that Joseph is the one who will return at the Second Coming? (With Jesus? Alone?)

Richard's not a Saint, either.

Lehi

[SilverKnight]

I cant say for sure - this is a wildly speculative topic.

Perhaps right now Joseph Smith is numbered among other earthly religious leaders like Martin Luther, Muhammad, Ghandi, Pope John Paul, Confucius and Siddhartha ministering to the departed souls of men - under the leadership of the risen Christ.

Where do you think Joseph Smith is currently?

[consiglieri]

Where is Mr. Smith now?

Mingling with gods?