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Sympathy to New York Cumorah Possibility


SkepticTheist

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Hello. I am trying to find serious scholars who have sympathy towards the possibility of a New York Cumorah.

Anyone who is believes in Book of Mormon historicity who has the desire to see some pushback against the Mesoamerican Cumorah theory, and would possibly like to participate in scholarship on this subject, please contact me:

kokobim@gmail.com

And my website is http://edwingoble.com

thanks.

Ed Goble

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Hello. I am trying to find serious scholars who have sympathy towards the possibility of a New York Cumorah.

Anyone who is believes in Book of Mormon historicity who has the desire to see some pushback against the Mesoamerican Cumorah theory, and would possibly like to participate in scholarship on this subject, please contact me:

kokobim@gmail.com

And my website is http://edwingoble.com

thanks.

Ed Goble

I have sympathy towards the Great Lakes defenders, I myself was a fierce defender of the great lakes model for some time. The real problem though is that the Great Lakes model fails to fit into the limited geography, it fails to support the populations of the BoM, it fails to priduce the cities of the BoM, and it fails to produce the archeological evidence of massive battles at NY Cumorah.

I just don't see a narrow neck of land with a sea on each side coming form upstate New York. Mesoamerica seems to fit the culture, the populous, the technology, and the geography of the BoM.

I know that NY Cumorah is a vital part of the BoM, Moroni traveled for almost 40 years to get from Central America to New York to bury the plates so he could lead Joseph to them in 1823. I just don't see any realistic chance of the great battlefield of the Jaradites and Nephites being in Palmyra New York. If we could produce archeological evidence of massive battles then I could see a rebirth of the Great Lakes model, but without any evidence the theory seems dead in the water.

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I have sympathy towards the Great Lakes defenders, I myself was a fierce defender of the great lakes model for some time. The real problem though is that the Great Lakes model fails to fit into the limited geography, it fails to support the populations of the BoM, it fails to priduce the cities of the BoM, and it fails to produce the archeological evidence of massive battles at NY Cumorah.

FYI I don't think that ST believes in the great lake area as the place were the majority of the BoM took place.

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Yeah, I should clarify. I'm looking for is serious scholars who

(1) believe the book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica in a limited Geography, *NOT* the Great Lakes area, with a Narrow Neck of Land as Tehuantepec or some other neck down there.

(2) who believe in the New York Cumorah as part of a more extended geography only later in the book of Mormon story.

(3) who want to do research to build the case of the plausibility that the Nephites and Jaredites were destroyed in New York. Again this isn't about the Nephites and Jaredites living there as the core of their population centers.

I want to organize a site with research that counters the BMAF and other Mesoamericanist research, and I want contributors.

Ed Goble

I have sympathy towards the Great Lakes defenders, I myself was a fierce defender of the great lakes model for some time. The real problem though is that the Great Lakes model fails to fit into the limited geography, it fails to support the populations of the BoM, it fails to priduce the cities of the BoM, and it fails to produce the archeological evidence of massive battles at NY Cumorah.

I just don't see a narrow neck of land with a sea on each side coming form upstate New York. Mesoamerica seems to fit the culture, the populous, the technology, and the geography of the BoM.

I know that NY Cumorah is a vital part of the BoM, Moroni traveled for almost 40 years to get from Central America to New York to bury the plates so he could lead Joseph to them in 1823. I just don't see any realistic chance of the great battlefield of the Jaradites and Nephites being in Palmyra New York. If we could produce archeological evidence of massive battles then I could see a rebirth of the Great Lakes model, but without any evidence the theory seems dead in the water.

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From a previous conversation with Crockett, it is apparent that I'm not looking to quote him. I am not interested in people who just want to quote general authorities or testimony or other questionable secondary "evidences."

I want serious people who want to use serious evidence.

I didn't intend this thread to become a new thread on Cumorah and why it is or isn't Cumorah. I only wanted this to be a thread where I'm soliciting contributors for research.

Ed Goble

I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but you may want to consider Bob Crockett's critique of Matt Roper's critique of Rodney Meldrum's critique of Greg Smith's critique of Rodney Meldrum's critique of John Sorenson's BoM geography model.

http://randomrunner....2011/01/29/123/

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From a previous conversation with Crockett, it is apparent that I'm not looking to quote him. I am not interested in people who just want to quote general authorities or testimony or other questionable secondary "evidences."

I want serious people who want to use serious evidence.

I didn't intend this thread to become a new thread on Cumorah and why it is or isn't Cumorah. I only wanted this to be a thread where I'm soliciting contributors for research.

Ed Goble

Excellent. I have a good resource you might find interesting (if you haven't seen it already), though I tend to favor a Mesoamerican setting. When I get home tonight I'll send it to you (or post it here). I have a commitment to another board member that I need to get working on (as well as a video project, an audio project, and a three-hour media law test) that I need to finish up before tomorrow afternoon. Given your background, you're probably familiar with the accounts of the farmers who claimed to have found abnormal amounts of obsidian arrowheads and other materials in fields surrounding the NY Cumorah.

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Excellent. I have a good resource you might find interesting (if you haven't seen it already), though I tend to favor a Mesoamerican setting. When I get home tonight I'll send it to you (or post it here). I have a commitment to another board member that I need to get working on (as well as a video project, an audio project, and a three-hour media law test) that I need to finish up before tomorrow afternoon. Given your background, you're probably familiar with the accounts of the farmers who claimed to have found abnormal amounts of obsidian arrowheads and other materials in fields surrounding the NY Cumorah.

yeah, I'm familiar with them. I have some of them, but I don't have all the quotes. I want to amass them all to build a case for why a new dig must be done, but not for the sake of treating them as evidence of anything in and of themselves.

Anything else you have would be very appreciated.

Ed Goble

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From a previous conversation with Crockett, it is apparent that I'm not looking to quote him. I am not interested in people who just want to quote general authorities or testimony or other questionable secondary "evidences."

Well, I've long been on record for a better understanding of the Native American archaeology among LDS Scholars for the upper Ohio Valley. I have argued that that scholarship has been virtually ignored in favor of a Mesoamerican model. I don't expect you to hang your hat on every post I've ever made, but I've backed up my general authority views with some scientific studies.

I recommend Haywood, Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee (1823, reprinted in 1959). Heywood was a Tennessee Supreme Court justice and an amateur archeologist and anthropologist. (There was no such thing, really, as American professional archaeologists when his book was published.) He documents the type of weaponry and metal work found in burial mounds in the Ohio Valley, including iron, bronze, as well as stone boxes. The work is so significant that the Tanners claim that the Book of Mormon ripped it off.

George R. Milner, The Moundbuilders (2004) documents the state of the art for the mound cultures, although you won't find much solace because of the timetables he discusses.

The diffusionists (Dr. Sorenson is one of these) also publish various finds and statements about inter-continental trade and technology exchanges in the Great Lakes area which are very interesting. Patrick Huyghe, Columbus Was Last (1992) isn't really a man of science and is just a technical writer but he cites some significant works.

Another diffusionist, Charles Mann's 1491 points to some significant studies; he is a "high counter" and is part of growing group of academics who argue that low population estimates of North America are part of a politically correct but erroneous view to paint the Native Americans as "noble savages" and ecologists. As I recall, Mann is a technical writer as well but I've chased down some of his better cites.

If you immerse yourself in the writings of diffusionists (Cyrus Gordon being one key guy) you can get a lot of great ideas, although they are in a minority and are frequently disparaged by the mainstream.

A friend of mine published a book which FARMS savaged, Paul Hedengren, a BYU Professor. Paul is also a Maxwell Institute author. His work on Great Lakes geography is critiqued by FARMS here. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=8&num=2&id=219

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Ed,

In the early 19th century very little beyond anecdotal accounts were known about the nature and extent of the earthen constructions -- mounds and earthworks -- that lay mostly in the lands beyond the Appalachians. Caleb Atwater's 1820 account of Ohio earthworks was the first major account of them, and then Squier and Davis' 1848 compendium, with a wide distribution from the new Smithsonian Institution, really opened people's eyes. Indian Mounds of the Middle Ohio Valley by Woodward and McDonald is a very good book, it is a good guide, very reliable and well-researched.

On the boards Great Lake proponents like to refer much to the Hopewell and Adena traditions but also look into the Mississippian culture (late prehistoric) they also built thousands of mounds, and had what was probably the most politically-advanced culture in North America north of Mexico. Look at recent books on the Woodland cultures and archaeological sites. You may wish to consult the book "Ohio Archaeology" Bob Riordin is the principal author. It includes a chapter by the historian Terry Barnhart on the early history of research on the mounds. Keep in mind many of Haywood's claims cannot be substantiated with existing data.

The only iron known to come from prehistoric mounds is cold-hammered meteoric iron. Brass, also, is unknown in ancient mounds, but cold-hammered copper was often mistaken for brass. As for inscriptions, no alphabetic inscriptions on tablets of any material are known for the prehistoric era. I know you are quite aware of the numerous fraudulent artifacts supposedly found in mounds over the years, usually crafted and placed to support someone's ideas about who peopled North American and when, avoid these (see Ken Feder's new "Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology" for many examples of forgeries of such things from the early historic period). One prominent example is the Newark "Holy Stones" see here: Another is the so-called Michigan Relics (here):

Finally, estimating the population size of a region in prehistory is fraught with difficulties and uncertainty but the Wiki article is pretty good in this regard(see here).

Best wishes,

Anijen

edited to add; I have a large bibliography on the mounds if you would like just pm me and I can send a copy to you.

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Yeah, I should clarify. I'm looking for is serious scholars who

(1) believe the book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica in a limited Geography, *NOT* the Great Lakes area, with a Narrow Neck of Land as Tehuantepec or some other neck down there.

(2) who believe in the New York Cumorah as part of a more extended geography only later in the book of Mormon story.

(3) who want to do research to build the case of the plausibility that the Nephites and Jaredites were destroyed in New York. Again this isn't about the Nephites and Jaredites living there as the core of their population centers.

I want to organize a site with research that counters the BMAF and other Mesoamericanist research, and I want contributors.

Ed Goble

Thanks for the clarification! :P

It sounds like an interesting idea, but that is one heck of a long walk for one battle. It is still a valid possibility though, how would you explain the lack of archeological evidence so far at Palmyra NY?

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Thanks for the clarification! :P

It sounds like an interesting idea, but that is one heck of a long walk for one battle. It is still a valid possibility though, how would you explain the lack of archeological evidence so far at Palmyra NY?

Two battles, The Jaredites fought at the same hill then made his (Ether) way down to Mesoamerica so that KIng Benjamine could have their record found and then many years later back up to NY for the final battle between the N and L at that same hill. Yes it is possible for all that to happen and yes nothing is too hard for the Lord, but is it likely? Again not to sound redundant (too late) I think it makes more sense if it all happened in Mesoamerica and then Moroni in his last thirty-six years made his way up to NY and buried the plates. But hey I could be wrong.

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Two battles, The Jaredites fought at the same hill then made his (Ether) way down to Mesoamerica so that KIng Benjamine could have their record found and then many years later back up to NY for the final battle between the N and L at that same hill. Yes it is possible for all that to happen and yes nothing is too hard for the Lord, but is it likely? Again not to sound redundant (too late) I think it makes more sense if it all happened in Mesoamerica and then Moroni in his last thirty-six years made his way up to NY and buried the plates. But hey I could be wrong.

Thanks for the correction it is two battles!

I'll call this theory plausible, since it is theoretically possible, but seems that Mesoamerica Cumorah for the battles and the NY Cumorah for the plates makes more sense to me.

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Thanks for the clarification! :P

It sounds like an interesting idea, but that is one heck of a long walk for one battle. It is still a valid possibility though, how would you explain the lack of archeological evidence so far at Palmyra NY?

Sorry, I'm editing this because of foot in mouth disorder, so now I proceed to remove the tantrum from my post, but its too late to edit it before it was seen. Nevertheless, here is the "calmed down" version of the post.

The idea that Mesoamerica had far flung networks into the great lakes region is absolutely supported from archaeology, and anything that is any semblance of "civilization" whatsoever in the Great Lakes region is entirely as a result of Mesoamerican influence, other wise there would be none. Olmecs are absolutely responsible for Poverty Point, as well as Poverty Point's far flung network into even New York and other parts of New England. So they extended their influence and blazed trails for trade, and were intimately familiar with the area during peace time. In desperate circumstances, they had wars in the area where they had extended their influence, being intimately familiar with it. Mesoamerica, being an archaeological monster colossus, reached its influence into a petty state area like this part of the land northward during desperate times in war, and the fact that they did it in peace time definitely means that they could in war.

If people don't personally like the idea, it still is rational regardless. Some people not espousing this idea doesn't mean that it isn't plausible.

We aren't talking about New York Natives being destroyed in New York, nor are we talking about settlements in New York. We are talking about a whole civilization being pushed and fleeing from its population centers into a rural area to be destroyed in a desperate battle that was not a long term habitation site. There is a difference between a battle site and a long term habitation site, and there definitely are reasons why we aren't going to find a city on the site of the Palmyra Cumorah. The reports that allege that all the stuff on the surface was carried away is a good enough reason to assume that there is a need to dig down, and to assume that the stuff on the surface is no longer there. I mean, the reports are not evidence, but they do give you the reasoning for why you must dig deeper than just doing a mere site survey.

Ed Goble

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Well, I get tired of repeating it over and over again, and this thread wasn't supposed to be a repeat of the other thread. But my book Resurrecting Cumorah explains my thinking and reasoning, so go familiarize yourself to the research. i'm tired of repeating myself. You guys should have to go do some work now, and use your own brains to absorb the arguments. I shouldn't have to sit here and spoon feed it to you over and over. For starters, the idea that Mesoamerica had far flung networks into the great lakes region is absolutely supported. Olmecs are absolutely responsible for Poverty Point, as well as Poverty Point's far flung network into even NEW YORK AND OTHER PARTS OF NEW ENGLAND. So they extended their influence and blazed trails for trade, and were intimately familiar with the area during peace time. So you are seriously going to tell me that in desperate circumstances, they could not have had wars in the area where they had extended their influence being intimately familiar with it? Are you seriously going to tell me like the rest of the Mesoamericanists that can't seem to follow the logic that an archaeological monster colossus like mesoamerica could not reach its influence into a petty state area like this part of the land northward during desperate times in war, when they definitely did it in peace time!!!

Come on now people. Just because you don't personally like the idea doesn't mean it isn't rational. Just because you don't espouse the reasoning as your own does not make it plausible.

Come on. We aren't talking about New York Natives being destroyed in New York, nor are we talking about settlements in New York. We are talking about a whole civilization being pushed and fleeing from its population centers into a rural area to be destroyed in a desperate battle that was not a long term habitation site! Get a grip on the difference between a battle site and a long term habitation site, and the reasons why we aren't going to find a city on the site of the Palmyra Cumorah. Get a grip on the fact that reports that allege that all the stuff on the surface was carried away is a good enough reason to assume why there is a need to dig down, and to assume that the stuff on the surface is no longer there. I mean, the reports are not evidence, but they do give you the reasoning for why you must dig deeper than just doing a mere site survey. I mean, I get real tired of repeating this stuff. I get real tired of people that haven't read the threads that have transpired in the last few weeks on here where I have explained this stuff over and over. I get real tired of people that expect you to repeat it over for them that won't exert themselves to read the research for themselves. This thread was not supposed to turn into another one of these.

Ed Goble

There is no need for such childish out lashes, I am sorry for asking a simple question. If I knew that you would throw a temper tantrum I wouldn't of asked in the first place.

I would also like to note that I never said it wasn't rational, I said it was plausible and theoretically possible, so your response is ridiculous.

I apologize for somehow offending you so deeply to in your mind to justify such a crude and uncivil response.

If this is how you plan to persuade people that your theories are correct, I would suggest that you quickly lose the poor sport attitude.

God Bless Ed!

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There is no need for such childish out lashes, I am sorry for asking a simple question. If I knew that you would throw a temper tantrum I wouldn't of asked in the first place.

I would also like to note that I never said it wasn't rational, I said it was plausible and theoretically possible, so your response is ridiculous.

I apologize for somehow offending you so deeply to in your mind to justify such a crude and uncivil response.

If this is how you plan to persuade people that your theories are correct, I would suggest that you quickly lose the poor sport attitude.

God Bless Ed!

I guess I should take some time off here and just go away for a while to cool down.

I did apologize if you notice, in the next post. I suppose I should have edited that other post.

Sure, I have no excuse for the attitude, but if you knew my life, at least you would understand it.

I have little hope of persuasion of anyone of the opposite ideology to mine. And just continual dismissal from those who are supposed to be open-minded, but are actually hard headed dogmatists. While I am openly admitting my hypocrisy, because I am pretty dogmatic in my beliefs, at least I will say that other people's points of view are reasonable and plausible.

I only have hopes of rallying whatever troops are left of my own ideology before they are swept away by the Mesoamericanist ideology, and try to train them in a more rational framework for this belief.

Alma 50:29

Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.

Alma 50:31

And it came to pass that she fled, and came over to the camp of Moroni, and told Moroni all things concerning the matter, and also concerning their intentions to flee into the land northward.

Alma 22:34

Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites

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Ed, I never heard of any connection with Poverty Point and the Olmec's, others in the Ohio and Tennessee valleys but not the Olmec's. Could you possibly give me a source to look at for this? I hope things get better for you.

Not to be a hard-nose but seriously the only large bodies of water North of Tehuantepec is the Great Lakes? I would have to strongly disagree (the gulf of Mexico comes to mind) but even the many bodies of waters rivers and cenotes etc in Venezuela could also qualify. If one is asked to walk an exceedingly great distance, could not one hundred miles qualify? I think we in our presentism with our planes/trains and automobiles naturally think that an exceedingly great distance is thousands of miles, something we can travel in a matter of hours. But in Mormon and Moroni's time with all their people gathered and must walk, I think a hundred miles easily meets that definition.

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I'll get back to you with some sources, but I'm not sure whether I should get into that publicly. Perhaps I should send them to you in a private message, because they happen to be source material that I wasn't ready to put out much about, because I am currently in collaboration with Tyler Livingston writing a paper that perhaps will be published, ironically by either the Maxwell Institute or the BMAF, that is, if they don't turn and run, or heave from nausia, because I happen to be one of the authors.

So I thought the Gulf of Mexico was the East Sea, so now you are going to conflate it with Ripliancum?

You can read the text any way you like. My reading happens to be a traditional one that I assert is perfectly rational. Sorry, those certainly do qualify, plausibly in your setting, but not "to exceed all." If the phase "to exceed all" was written by a Mesoamerican who knew what constituted "all" according to what is "everything" in the Mesoamerican sphere of influence, then the Great Lakes constitute part of what "everything" would mean to a Mesoamerican who wrote the phrase "to exceed all". Therefore, the only thing that "exceeds all" in the Mesoamerican Sphere of influence happens to be the Great Lakes, if we exclude the Gulf of Mexico and other oceans, because I thought it was generally understood by Mesoamerican theorists in most popular Mesoamerican setting models that Ripliancum and the large bodies of water are not the same as the East Sea, West Sea and so forth.

If you think a hundred miles meets that definition, what type of language then was used to describe a far flung network into the Great Lakes region by a Mesoamerican who was concious of the extent of that network if it far exceeded exceedingly, if exceedingly was a mere 100 miles?

LOL. I feel like my tongue is going to get tied up in knots after all that.

Ed

Ed, I never heard of any connection with Poverty Point and the Olmec's, others in the Ohio and Tennessee valleys but not the Olmec's. Could you possibly give me a source to look at for this? I hope things get better for you.

Not to be a hard-nose but seriously the only large bodies of water North of Tehuantepec is the Great Lakes? I would have to strongly disagree (the gulf of Mexico comes to mind) but even the many bodies of waters rivers and cenotes etc in Venezuela could also qualify. If one is asked to walk an exceedingly great distance, could not one hundred miles qualify? I think we in our presentism with our planes/trains and automobiles naturally think that an exceedingly great distance is thousands of miles, something we can travel in a matter of hours. But in Mormon and Moroni's time with all their people gathered and must walk, I think a hundred miles easily meets that definition.

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I guess I should take some time off here and just go away for a while to cool down.

I did apologize if you notice, in the next post. I suppose I should have edited that other post.

Sure, I have no excuse for the attitude, but if you knew my life, at least you would understand it.

I have little hope of persuasion of anyone of the opposite ideology to mine. And just continual dismissal from those who are supposed to be open-minded, but are actually hard headed dogmatists. While I am openly admitting my hypocrisy, because I am pretty dogmatic in my beliefs, at least I will say that other people's points of view are reasonable and plausible.

I only have hopes of rallying whatever troops are left of my own ideology before they are swept away by the Mesoamericanist ideology, and try to train them in a more rational framework for this belief.

Alma 50:29

Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.

Alma 50:31

And it came to pass that she fled, and came over to the camp of Moroni, and told Moroni all things concerning the matter, and also concerning their intentions to flee into the land northward.

Alma 22:34

Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites

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I understand that you were upset, and I am thankful that you did apologize. If I had saw that I wouldn't of commented. There was no apology up when I commented. I appreciate that you did apologize most on forums don't, I don't seek to contend here I only seek to learn more, so I can understand better. I am not saying that I am going to believe what you believe but how can I know what to believe without information.

If someone could provide links to the other discussion or research that would be great.

All I was doing was trying to find out more information!

Had I read the other forums I would of not been asking questions!

I'm not here to argue only to learn! :P

Sounds great. I love to learn too, but I do have strong beliefs, so I guess I should warn everyone that I have become hard headed myself about those particular beliefs. I need to somehow not let the emotions of the past bleed into the current situation.

Ed

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Sounds great. I love to learn too, but I do have strong beliefs, so I guess I should warn everyone that I have become hard headed myself about those particular beliefs. I need to somehow not let the emotions of the past bleed into the current situation.

Ed

I know how you feel! I too have beliefs that are attacked without mercy when I present them. Like your situation I too know that many will act like what they believe is revelation from God and anyone who disagrees is some idiot or apostate.

I feel your pain man!

Like I said I meant no offense only seeking to understand more about your position!

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I just don't see a narrow neck of land with a sea on each side coming form upstate New York.

Uh, ever been to Niagara Falls? You know, like between lake Erie and Lake Ontario?

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Uh, ever been to Niagara Falls? You know, like between lake Erie and Lake Ontario?

I think that is a too limited geography, it appears that this stretch of land is only 20 to 30 miles by 20 miles it seems a lot to say that the entire BoM geography took place in an area of approx 400 to 600sq miles.

Also if it was in Niagara Falls area, why are the falls never mentioned?

One would think that such a huge landmark would be mentioned, or the massive lake effect snow would be mentioned someone in the BoM?

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I think that is a too limited geography, it appears that this stretch of land is only 20 to 30 miles by 20 miles it seems a lot to say that the entire BoM geography took place in an area of approx 400 to 600sq miles.

Also if it was in Niagara Falls area, why are the falls never mentioned?

One would think that such a huge landmark would be mentioned, or the massive lake effect snow would be mentioned someone in the BoM?

Well, see, here is a problem. Because I am also a pioneer in the US Heartland Geography model that I retracted. Meldrum based his stuff off my first book. But I wouldn't have believed it at one point in time if there weren't significant Trojan Horse things that led me to bet enough on it that I thought it was correct at the time.

One of those unfortunate trojan horses is the meaning of the word Niagara, meaning "neck of land" or "bisected bottomland" or "point of land cut in two" in the Iroquoian languages. Therefore, this is significant enough of a trojan horse to realize that this is actually a Book of Mormon connection, because in the one word, we have all the significant meanings in the Book of Mormon ascribed to the neck of land, that (1) it is a narrow neck of land, by (2) where the sea DIVIDES the land. Not only do we have the meaning "neck of Land" in the word, but also the fact that it is "bisected" or "cut in two". In other words "where the sea divides the land." The falls and the Niagara river do indeed divide the land, and they come from the "sea" or Lake Erie to go into Lake Ontario. So there the sea divides the land. Pretty significant trojan horse. The problem is, this word was applied to this landmark because it is obviously a TRANSPLANT, because Niagara is actually the original name for TEHUANTEPEC! And the Mesoamericans that brought the name with them saw a neck of land where the "sea" divides the land, and wala! Another neck of land named after the Mesoamerican neck of land.

This is another obvious book of Mormon connection to the Land Northward, once again showing the fact that Mesoamericans inhabited the region. And the poor Great Lakes theorists are left to be the fools to buy into Mesoamerican names applied to Great Lakes landmarks as if they are significant for the Great Lakes region. What this really shows is that ironically some of the Book of Mormon place names are preserved OUTSIDE Mesoamerica where things were named after the original in Mesoamerica. Another similar thing is the word Toron-to, (from which we get the name of the city). This means Abundance or Bountiful. But of course, it is also a Trojan horse, because the original for this name is Tulan or Tullan, from Mesoamerica, the cognate to Toron-to, meaning Bountiful. Another unfortunate Trojan Horse for the Great Lakes theorists. But for the Book of Mormon, both of these place names are bullseyes, proving that Native Americans indeed had places that were named the same names as Book of Mormon place names that pre-date the writing of the Book of Mormon, things that Joseph Smith would not have known about, as it is not likely that he spoke these Indian languages, or had significant access to place-name dictionaries. It is very doubtful that place-name dictionaries existed in any Palmyra library or something.

Ed

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