Exorcism in the LDS Church?

[Jason]

It would be far more specific and helpful, for us struggling to understand the process, than the usual responses.

Apparently it wouldn't, at least in your case, since you didn't believe your father's experience.

I don't understand the whole, its too sacred to discuss claim.

There are two aspects to a refusal to discuss possessions or the other doings of evil spirits.

One is that, yes, the experiences of rebuking and dismissing these spirits are sacred experiences at which the Spirit of God was present and which involved the evoking of priesthood powers; and which would not be nearly as impressive to someone who was not there and could not experience what we experienced. Words, especially written words, are generally a poor substitute for actual spiritual experiences.

The second is that we are warned to not dwell overly much on Satan and his followers. Satan wants us to fear him and his followers, and he wants the curious to investigate possible ways of contacting or otherwise dealing with them in the hopes of ensnaring them. It's generally best to avoid doing what Satan wants.

[mbh26]

now if a person does not follow the lord in all things

That kind of means everyone right. Who can say that they follow the Lord in all things?

[Sky]

I was just watching a segment on ABC's Nightline on [Catholic] exorcism, perhaps catalyzed by the new movie "The Rite" (based on the book "The Rite: The Making of a Modern Exorcist" that describes the real life training and experiences of a Catholic exorcist).

How do LDS view such matters? Do LDS believe that demonic possession is possible? Does the LDS Church have a history of performing exorcisms? What is the LDS view on Satan and demonic influences in our world?

Satan and his angels are real, although demonic possession is not something that we tend to dwell on a lot as a Church (and for good reason). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that all beings that have bodies of flesh and blood have power over those that do not.

You might be interested to read about the First Miracle performed by Joseph Smith (sometimes considered the First Miracle done in the LDS Church):

In the same month in which the Church was organized, Newell Knight was possessed by an evil spirit. So severe and agonizing were the circumstances that the afflicted believer

[stYro]

It would be far more specific and helpful, for us struggling to understand the process, than the usual responses. I don't understand the whole, its too sacred to discuss claim.

I agree with you; this is hardly a "sacred" subject. If you want to hear my experiences, I can post 'em. Might be useful, might not.

stYro

[maupayman]

Satan and his angels are real, although demonic possession is not something that we tend to dwell on a lot as a Church (and for good reason). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that all beings that have bodies of flesh and blood have power over those that do not.

You might be interested to read about the First Miracle performed by Joseph Smith (sometimes considered the First Miracle done in the LDS Church):

For the full article, see here.

Apparently Joseph and others did not feel these experiences were too sacred to discuss. Jesus openly cast devils out and it was told to many people. The modern day secrecy of mormons on these subjects is unnecessary.

[maupayman]

I agree with you; this is hardly a "sacred" subject. If you want to hear my experiences, I can post 'em. Might be useful, might not.

stYro

That would be great, thank you. Then I can stop talking to Jason too.

[Jason]

Apparently Joseph and others did not feel these experiences were too sacred to discuss. Jesus openly cast devils out and it was told to many people. The modern day secrecy of mormons on these subjects is unnecessary.

The circumstances of Joseph's day are quite different from today. Still, I'm sure that if you look hard enough you will be able to find LDS accounts of exorcisms, if it's really that important to you.

[Rock_N_Roll]

- It always happened to someone someone else knew.

I had a first hand experience. It took place in the MTC while I was on my mission.

- It was accompanied by a dark 'feeling' and nothing tangible.

Yes, there was a very dark feeling. Also some very tangible events as well.

- It always seems to happen to gullible people, never skeptical ones.

I consider myself a skeptical person. I don't believe in aliens, moon landing or 9-11 hoaxes, magic, astrology, big foot, vampires, etc. etc...

- Details and witnesses are scant, but somehow it's still always very 'real'.

Three other missionaries and a Branch President were involved - and witnessed the event.

I personally think it's complete bunk more easily explained by mental illness and self-induced hysteria.

I will admit mental illness or self-induced hysteria are possibilities, but in the case I was involved with, I tend to think not. I recently saw the movie The Rite. It occurred to me throughout the movie that, through personal experience, I know that "this could have been taken care of in a matter of minutes."

[SilverKnight]

Curiously, when one searches for "demonic possession" or "exorcism" on LDS.org, this is the only talk that pops up aside from a few NT scriptural references:

Myths about Mental Illness

http://lds.org/ensign/2005/10/myths-about-mental-illness?lang=eng

Searching for "Casting Out Evil Spirits" yields nothing.

Seems like this "deadly serious" topic is not worthy of much comment, aside from a common sense talk from a general authority telling us demonic possession is probably just symptoms of mental illness.

[mbh26]

I'm afraid it's just a topic where talking about it with other people doesn't really help the matter much. Thankfully I personally have not experienced any of it. I hope it stays that way.

[maupayman]

Curiously, when one searches for "demonic possession" or "exorcism" on LDS.org, this is the only talk that pops up aside from a few NT scriptural references:

Myths about Mental Illness

http://lds.org/ensign/2005/10/myths-about-mental-illness?lang=eng

Searching for "Casting Out Evil Spirits" yields nothing.

Seems like this "deadly serious" topic is not worthy of much comment, aside from a common sense talk from a general authority telling us demonic possession is probably just symptoms of mental illness.

This is a good point SilverKnight. I remember during my mission we had a number of Elders claiming that their apartments had evil spirits. I was the Asistant to the Pres. at the time and the Pres called a special meeting at the time, on how to address the issue. There was no official advice that he could find and he even contacted Elder Oaks about the matter, during his time over the Philippines area. We did nothing about it and the experiences just went away. It seemed odd to me at the time that there was nothing more official that we could do to help the elders.

I was also on exchanges with an elder once and he was convinced that his apartment had an evil spirit. We came home at night to hear noises in the attic and we had a terrible feeling as we entered the apartment. We both did the raise the arm to the square and command to depart in the name of Christ, as per LDS teaching, but nothing happened. The noises continued through the night and I left in the morning. Never heard him complain about it again though, I guess he just ignored it. So, i'm not totally ignorant of LDS possession claims, we had numerous members make similar claims as well. They would claim their kids were possessed or something similar. I just never saw them resolved in any meaningful way.

[SilverKnight]

This is a good point SilverKnight. I remember during my mission we had a number of Elders claiming that their apartments had evil spirits.

There's a reason why most "Evil Spirit" stories happen on missions and in the MTC.

It's because missionaries are young, gullible and naive to begin with. They are also in somewhat a state of continuous spiritual 'hysteria'. Every waking moment they are praying, preaching, reading the scriptures, and fervently believing. They are inclined to believe anything religious they hear, no matter how outlandish.

When missionaries get together, the conversation naturally gravitates to one-upping each other with spectacular faith promoting stories, mormon legends, miracles, and ultimately, spook stories with demons, evil spirits and the possessed.

Soon wild yarns are spun by the zealous youngsters. Tales of garment-defacing laundromats burning down, legs healed by false-priests re-breaking, the resurrected Christ strolling about the MTC in the wee hours of the night, and, of course, demon-possessed investigators, demon-haunted apartments, and the cautionary tale of foolish elder who entered his MTC dormroom closet and dared to spar with Satan himself.

In the telling of these spook stories the Elders have been known to get a little freaked out. Strange noises happen, shadows seem to move, darkness seems to gather.

Years later the stories have evolved into two directions: they are now fantastic mormon folk tales told and retold to bewildered deacons around dimming campfires, or they are so terrifying (or sacred) that they are only hinted at - leaving fertile imaginations to fill in the details.

[maupayman]

There's a reason why most "Evil Spirit" stories happen on missions and in the MTC.

It's because missionaries are young, gullible and naive to begin with. They are also in somewhat a state of continuous spiritual 'hysteria'. Every waking moment they are praying, preaching, reading the scriptures, and fervently believing. They are inclined to believe anything religious they hear, no matter how outlandish.

When missionaries get together, the conversation naturally gravitates to one-upping each other with spectacular faith promoting stories, mormon legends, miracles, and ultimately, spook stories with demons, evil spirits and the possessed.

Soon wild yarns are spun by the zealous youngsters. Tales of garment-defacing laundromats burning down, legs healed by false-priests re-breaking, the resurrected Christ strolling about the MTC in the wee hours of the night, and, of course, demon-possessed investigators, demon-haunted apartments, and the cautionary tale of foolish elder who entered his MTC dormroom closet and dared to spar with Satan himself.

In the telling of these spook stories the Elders have been known to get a little freaked out. Strange noises happen, shadows seem to move, darkness seems to gather.

Years later the stories have evolved into two directions: they are now fantastic mormon folk tales told and retold to bewildered deacons around dimming campfires, or they are so terrifying (or sacred) that they are only hinted at - leaving fertile imaginations to fill in the details.

Again, excellent points. I couldn't agree more

[Sky]

Curiously, when one searches for "demonic possession" or "exorcism" on LDS.org, this is the only talk that pops up aside from a few NT scriptural references:

Myths about Mental Illness

http://lds.org/ensign/2005/10/myths-about-mental-illness?lang=eng

Searching for "Casting Out Evil Spirits" yields nothing.

Seems like this "deadly serious" topic is not worthy of much comment, aside from a common sense talk from a general authority telling us demonic possession is probably just symptoms of mental illness.

I think it

[Sky]

There's a reason why most "Evil Spirit" stories happen on missions and in the MTC.

It's because missionaries are young, gullible and naive to begin with. They are also in somewhat a state of continuous spiritual 'hysteria'. Every waking moment they are praying, preaching, reading the scriptures, and fervently believing. They are inclined to believe anything religious they hear, no matter how outlandish.

When missionaries get together, the conversation naturally gravitates to one-upping each other with spectacular faith promoting stories, mormon legends, miracles, and ultimately, spook stories with demons, evil spirits and the possessed.

Soon wild yarns are spun by the zealous youngsters. Tales of garment-defacing laundromats burning down, legs healed by false-priests re-breaking, the resurrected Christ strolling about the MTC in the wee hours of the night, and, of course, demon-possessed investigators, demon-haunted apartments, and the cautionary tale of foolish elder who entered his MTC dormroom closet and dared to spar with Satan himself.

In the telling of these spook stories the Elders have been known to get a little freaked out. Strange noises happen, shadows seem to move, darkness seems to gather.

Years later the stories have evolved into two directions: they are now fantastic mormon folk tales told and retold to bewildered deacons around dimming campfires, or they are so terrifying (or sacred) that they are only hinted at - leaving fertile imaginations to fill in the details.

So tell me then

[stYro]

That would be great, thank you.

Previously in this thread I said that I was involved in two such incidents; well I remembered a third so I'll go with all three.

1: I was a missionary, and we were teaching this couple, showing them the old First Vision filmstrip. This usually made a strong positive impression on people; most said that they "felt the spirit' during it, and I usually did. So afterwards we asked the couple what they felt. The wife was almost catatonic; conscious but non-responsive. My companion and I both felt something cold & terrifying, and he whispered to me "it's Satan". I'm not sure it was the big guy himself, but I knew what he meant. We anointed her with consecrated oil and gave her a blessing, after which she was suddenly fine. My companion and I felt much better too, maybe as much out of relief as anything else.

She told us of the experience from her perspective. She said that right at the moment when the Father and Son appear to Joseph Smith - which is supposed to be the cue for the Holy Spirit to come in - she said "it entered me". She said something entered her mind and/or body and began laughing at her. She could see his face, and he was very handsome. His laughter was so loud that it drowned out the rest of the film, as well as all the questions we asked her afterward as we were trying to figure out what was going on. She said she could tell we were speaking to her, but she couldn't really hear us.

She went on to say that when we put the "water" on her head, "it was very afraid". She said that right in the middle of the prayer (blessing) it suddenly left.

To the best of my knowledge neither she nor her husband were ever baptized.

2: A young couple that I was well acquainted with was engaged, and the girl began exhibiting strange behavior. She would become uncharactaristically negative, then become withdrawn and semi-catatonic, and not remember much about it afterwards. The young man tried to give her a blessing, and she physically fought him off. So I tried to put my hands on her head, and she began fighting me off. Her grip was amazingly strong. I was curious just how strong she was, so I let her grab me by the upper torso with both hands, under my armpits. She picked me up and threw me backwards about eight feet. I wasn't a big guy and she wasn't a big girl, but outside of a major adrenaline rush that was abnormal. Didn't really hurt much (I had a background in judo and could fall safely), but I was really surprised by her strength. On the other hand, her coordination was poor, and it was easy to twist and break her grip if I wanted to.

This pushy-shovey-standup-wrestling match ensued, with one or another of the men present doing a "casting out" command from time to time. They only effect this had was to apparently enrage the girl, or whatever was controlling her. This continued for maybe five or ten minutes, and then she appeared to go to sleep. We were unable to awaken her. Well now was our opportunity to give her a blessing and we did so, but nothing happened. After sleeping for a couple of hours she awoke and seemed to be fine.

I think there were several subsequent episodes, and never anything that might be called a successful casting out. I do not know what her perception of these events was. The couple intepreted it as Satan trying to keep them from getting married, so they proceeded to get married and never had any recurrence during their marrige, which lasted about ten years. They remain friends.

3. I was called by a concerned young wife (a different woman) about her husband, who seemed to be badly depressed.. okay, suicidal. This was uncharacteristic of him. So I arranged to meet him at his place of business after hours. I tried to assess the situation by asking a bunch of questions, but got only short answers like "i don't know". There seemed to be a void-like feeling, I coiuldn't feel anything one way or another, and usually I could at least get a reading, so to speak. So this was unusual. I told him that I suspected it might be an evil spirit and that I would like to give him a blessing. He said "I don't care", which I took to be permission (and it was). I went into the next room to pray first, and asked for ministering angels to assist me, as attributed to the Aaronic priesthood. I believed in such things (still do), and figured I needed all the help I could get.

I went back into the room where he was, and asked him to come into the big room where I had gone to pray. I had a chair in the middle of the room with plenty of space around it for any angels that decided to show up. I told him that I had asked for angels to assist. I asked him if he thought I should anoint him with oil first.. He said "I don't know. I just don't know." Still figuring I could use all the help I could get, I anointed him and then sealed the anointing and gave him a blessing and used the word "we" when I commanded the evil spirit to depart. Apparently it did so.

After the blessing he was quite animated. He told me that he'd had this fog in his mind that made it very difficult for him to folllow what I was saying. He had wanted to give specific answers to my questions, but for some reason he was unable to force himself to do so against the fog. When I asked him about using the oil, the voice in his head said, "Great, you're letting me choose my own bullet." And then he said to himself , "Where did THAT come from??" That was the first time he realized there was something inside of him substituting its inner voice and its thoughts for his own. He felt it leave early in the blessing as I recall, before I got to the command. To the best of my knowledge, he had no recurrence. He and his wife split up a year or two later, which I was glad of, because she was very demeaning towards him. He is remarried and happy, and I don't know where she is.

So my record is 2 wins and 1 loss. I can comment on what I think "works" and what doesn't if anyone is interested, but I'm no expert.

stYro

[stYro]

It has now been slightly over a week since I posted my experiences above. I am curious why that apparently killed this previously rather active thread. Was my post too far outside of people's comfort zones?

Maupayman, I thought you at least would comment. I'd like to know your reaction, if you don't mind.

Thanks,

stYro

[LDS Guy 1986]

Does anybody see any contradiction in the idea that 'evil forces' may posses someone and the belief in free agency?

I can wrap my head around the concept that some people believe there is an adversary to goodness that would set traps of temptation externally so mankind would follow a 'wrong path' (by choosing to do so). But the idea that this adversary could affect a person's actions from within his or her own soul seem to contradict the idea that 'God' gave man free-agency. I would think that this free-agency would be absolute and not interruptible by outside influences internally.

Does this imply that 'Satan' can take away your free agency?

Not really, Satan can only posses those people who live wickedly. He cannot posses the righteous, ever.

When the Holy Ghost come upon the prophets and the reveal the will of God is that taking away free agency as well?

If you live for God and have faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior the Holy Ghost can use you (if you are willing) to do the work of the Lord.

The same is for Satan, if you follow after him by sinning and rejecting Christ or God, he can use you to do his will.

Do you think that there wasn't any influence from Satan on the men who murdered the Prophet and Hyrum in Carthage Jail?

Do you think that Satan had no hand in the many terrible persecutions of the Early Church?

We know for a fact that people can be possessed by evil spirits because the Bible clearly tells us that such things happen and that Christ cast out demons from the possessed.

[LDS Guy 1986]

Previously in this thread I said that I was involved in two such incidents; well I remembered a third so I'll go with all three.

1: I was a missionary, and we were teaching this couple, showing them the old First Vision filmstrip. This usually made a strong positive impression on people; most said that they "felt the spirit' during it, and I usually did. So afterwards we asked the couple what they felt. The wife was almost catatonic; conscious but non-responsive. My companion and I both felt something cold & terrifying, and he whispered to me "it's Satan". I'm not sure it was the big guy himself, but I knew what he meant. We anointed her with consecrated oil and gave her a blessing, after which she was suddenly fine. My companion and I felt much better too, maybe as much out of relief as anything else.

She told us of the experience from her perspective. She said that right at the moment when the Father and Son appear to Joseph Smith - which is supposed to be the cue for the Holy Spirit to come in - she said "it entered me". She said something entered her mind and/or body and began laughing at her. She could see his face, and he was very handsome. His laughter was so loud that it drowned out the rest of the film, as well as all the questions we asked her afterward as we were trying to figure out what was going on. She said she could tell we were speaking to her, but she couldn't really hear us.

She went on to say that when we put the "water" on her head, "it was very afraid". She said that right in the middle of the prayer (blessing) it suddenly left.

To the best of my knowledge neither she nor her husband were ever baptized.

2: A young couple that I was well acquainted with was engaged, and the girl began exhibiting strange behavior. She would become uncharactaristically negative, then become withdrawn and semi-catatonic, and not remember much about it afterwards. The young man tried to give her a blessing, and she physically fought him off. So I tried to put my hands on her head, and she began fighting me off. Her grip was amazingly strong. I was curious just how strong she was, so I let her grab me by the upper torso with both hands, under my armpits. She picked me up and threw me backwards about eight feet. I wasn't a big guy and she wasn't a big girl, but outside of a major adrenaline rush that was abnormal. Didn't really hurt much (I had a background in judo and could fall safely), but I was really surprised by her strength. On the other hand, her coordination was poor, and it was easy to twist and break her grip if I wanted to.

This pushy-shovey-standup-wrestling match ensued, with one or another of the men present doing a "casting out" command from time to time. They only effect this had was to apparently enrage the girl, or whatever was controlling her. This continued for maybe five or ten minutes, and then she appeared to go to sleep. We were unable to awaken her. Well now was our opportunity to give her a blessing and we did so, but nothing happened. After sleeping for a couple of hours she awoke and seemed to be fine.

I think there were several subsequent episodes, and never anything that might be called a successful casting out. I do not know what her perception of these events was. The couple intepreted it as Satan trying to keep them from getting married, so they proceeded to get married and never had any recurrence during their marrige, which lasted about ten years. They remain friends.

3. I was called by a concerned young wife (a different woman) about her husband, who seemed to be badly depressed.. okay, suicidal. This was uncharacteristic of him. So I arranged to meet him at his place of business after hours. I tried to assess the situation by asking a bunch of questions, but got only short answers like "i don't know". There seemed to be a void-like feeling, I coiuldn't feel anything one way or another, and usually I could at least get a reading, so to speak. So this was unusual. I told him that I suspected it might be an evil spirit and that I would like to give him a blessing. He said "I don't care", which I took to be permission (and it was). I went into the next room to pray first, and asked for ministering angels to assist me, as attributed to the Aaronic priesthood. I believed in such things (still do), and figured I needed all the help I could get.

I went back into the room where he was, and asked him to come into the big room where I had gone to pray. I had a chair in the middle of the room with plenty of space around it for any angels that decided to show up. I told him that I had asked for angels to assist. I asked him if he thought I should anoint him with oil first.. He said "I don't know. I just don't know." Still figuring I could use all the help I could get, I anointed him and then sealed the anointing and gave him a blessing and used the word "we" when I commanded the evil spirit to depart. Apparently it did so.

After the blessing he was quite animated. He told me that he'd had this fog in his mind that made it very difficult for him to folllow what I was saying. He had wanted to give specific answers to my questions, but for some reason he was unable to force himself to do so against the fog. When I asked him about using the oil, the voice in his head said, "Great, you're letting me choose my own bullet." And then he said to himself , "Where did THAT come from??" That was the first time he realized there was something inside of him substituting its inner voice and its thoughts for his own. He felt it leave early in the blessing as I recall, before I got to the command. To the best of my knowledge, he had no recurrence. He and his wife split up a year or two later, which I was glad of, because she was very demeaning towards him. He is remarried and happy, and I don't know where she is.

So my record is 2 wins and 1 loss. I can comment on what I think "works" and what doesn't if anyone is interested, but I'm no expert.

stYro

Amazing testimonies! Thank you for sharing them with us!

We know that there is evil and fallen spirits out there! I deeply believe that they can take possession of those who are not protected by the power of the Holy Ghost. I know that they want to take possession of people because they themselves will never have a body of flesh and bones like we do and they envy our wonderful gift from our Father in Heaven! Remember that when Christ was about to cast out one demon it begged him to be cast into a herd of swine. They would rather be in swine (an unclean animal at that time) instead of have no body to posses)!

I thank you again for sharing!

[Calm]

But the idea that this adversary could affect a person's actions from within his or her own soul seem to contradict the idea that 'God' gave man free-agency. I would think that this free-agency would be absolute and not interruptible by outside influences internally.

Addictions certainly seem to interfere with full exercise of agency as do many emotional and mental states such as depression, these last can be caused by external influences such as drugs or injuries.

[maupayman]

Previously in this thread I said that I was involved in two such incidents; well I remembered a third so I'll go with all three.

1: I was a missionary, and we were teaching this couple, showing them the old First Vision filmstrip. This usually made a strong positive impression on people; most said that they "felt the spirit' during it, and I usually did. So afterwards we asked the couple what they felt. The wife was almost catatonic; conscious but non-responsive. My companion and I both felt something cold & terrifying, and he whispered to me "it's Satan". I'm not sure it was the big guy himself, but I knew what he meant. We anointed her with consecrated oil and gave her a blessing, after which she was suddenly fine. My companion and I felt much better too, maybe as much out of relief as anything else.

She told us of the experience from her perspective. She said that right at the moment when the Father and Son appear to Joseph Smith - which is supposed to be the cue for the Holy Spirit to come in - she said "it entered me". She said something entered her mind and/or body and began laughing at her. She could see his face, and he was very handsome. His laughter was so loud that it drowned out the rest of the film, as well as all the questions we asked her afterward as we were trying to figure out what was going on. She said she could tell we were speaking to her, but she couldn't really hear us.

She went on to say that when we put the "water" on her head, "it was very afraid". She said that right in the middle of the prayer (blessing) it suddenly left.

To the best of my knowledge neither she nor her husband were ever baptized.

2: A young couple that I was well acquainted with was engaged, and the girl began exhibiting strange behavior. She would become uncharactaristically negative, then become withdrawn and semi-catatonic, and not remember much about it afterwards. The young man tried to give her a blessing, and she physically fought him off. So I tried to put my hands on her head, and she began fighting me off. Her grip was amazingly strong. I was curious just how strong she was, so I let her grab me by the upper torso with both hands, under my armpits. She picked me up and threw me backwards about eight feet. I wasn't a big guy and she wasn't a big girl, but outside of a major adrenaline rush that was abnormal. Didn't really hurt much (I had a background in judo and could fall safely), but I was really surprised by her strength. On the other hand, her coordination was poor, and it was easy to twist and break her grip if I wanted to.

This pushy-shovey-standup-wrestling match ensued, with one or another of the men present doing a "casting out" command from time to time. They only effect this had was to apparently enrage the girl, or whatever was controlling her. This continued for maybe five or ten minutes, and then she appeared to go to sleep. We were unable to awaken her. Well now was our opportunity to give her a blessing and we did so, but nothing happened. After sleeping for a couple of hours she awoke and seemed to be fine.

I think there were several subsequent episodes, and never anything that might be called a successful casting out. I do not know what her perception of these events was. The couple intepreted it as Satan trying to keep them from getting married, so they proceeded to get married and never had any recurrence during their marrige, which lasted about ten years. They remain friends.

3. I was called by a concerned young wife (a different woman) about her husband, who seemed to be badly depressed.. okay, suicidal. This was uncharacteristic of him. So I arranged to meet him at his place of business after hours. I tried to assess the situation by asking a bunch of questions, but got only short answers like "i don't know". There seemed to be a void-like feeling, I coiuldn't feel anything one way or another, and usually I could at least get a reading, so to speak. So this was unusual. I told him that I suspected it might be an evil spirit and that I would like to give him a blessing. He said "I don't care", which I took to be permission (and it was). I went into the next room to pray first, and asked for ministering angels to assist me, as attributed to the Aaronic priesthood. I believed in such things (still do), and figured I needed all the help I could get.

I went back into the room where he was, and asked him to come into the big room where I had gone to pray. I had a chair in the middle of the room with plenty of space around it for any angels that decided to show up. I told him that I had asked for angels to assist. I asked him if he thought I should anoint him with oil first.. He said "I don't know. I just don't know." Still figuring I could use all the help I could get, I anointed him and then sealed the anointing and gave him a blessing and used the word "we" when I commanded the evil spirit to depart. Apparently it did so.

After the blessing he was quite animated. He told me that he'd had this fog in his mind that made it very difficult for him to folllow what I was saying. He had wanted to give specific answers to my questions, but for some reason he was unable to force himself to do so against the fog. When I asked him about using the oil, the voice in his head said, "Great, you're letting me choose my own bullet." And then he said to himself , "Where did THAT come from??" That was the first time he realized there was something inside of him substituting its inner voice and its thoughts for his own. He felt it leave early in the blessing as I recall, before I got to the command. To the best of my knowledge, he had no recurrence. He and his wife split up a year or two later, which I was glad of, because she was very demeaning towards him. He is remarried and happy, and I don't know where she is.

So my record is 2 wins and 1 loss. I can comment on what I think "works" and what doesn't if anyone is interested, but I'm no expert.

stYro

Thanks for sharing styro, these are pretty amazing experiences. I'm curious to know what you think about what works etc. I'm just glad someone is willing to be specific in their claims.

[zelder]

As you can see, many LDS definitely believe in it, and regard it as so 'spooky' that it's best not talked about.

Note that these characteristics are identical to that of urban legends and ghost stories:

- It always happened to someone someone else knew.

- It was accompanied by a dark 'feeling' and nothing tangible.

- It always seems to happen to gullible people, never skeptical ones.

- Details and witnesses are scant, but somehow it's still always very 'real'.

I personally think it's complete bunk more easily explained by mental illness and self-induced hysteria.

The leadership of the LDS church also seems not to put too much stock in it, as there are no formal exorcism rites, no talks, no mention in publications, and no training whatsoever on the subject.

What do you think of the account of Newel Knight not only being strangely contorted but then actually being caught up off the floor and tossed about the room? Joseph rebuked the devil and Newel saw the devil leave.

The story is discussed here

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

and here

http://lds.org/ensig...ration?lang=eng

Do you think there is a natural explanation for this experience?

[Calm]

Another way to look at demonic possession (as opposed to the way the media portrays it) would be that it is something akin to hypnosis, where the spiritual effect is one that does not change the character of the individual involved, but rather removes or tightens inhibitions so that behaviour the individual would normally exercise self-control over is allowed to be acted upon.

[stYro]

Thanks for sharing styro, these are pretty amazing experiences. I'm curious to know what you think about what works etc. I'm just glad someone is willing to be specific in their claims.

Thanks, maupayman.

As for what works and what doesn't, I'll assemble some thoughts. I'll be going with the "entity invasion" paradigm instead of the "mental illness" paradigm, based on the feedback I got from the people I worked with in the first and third case. DISCLAIMER: The following is only the opinion of a former Mormon.

If you have a pretty good spiritual barometer, and you're in a situation with someone who exhibits some of the symptoms I've described, pay attention to your barometer. It's not going to hit you over the head. And if it isn't working, something may be blocking it. So if you're getting zero guidance when you would normally expect to, fall back on your reasoning mind and use your best judgment. Don't be afraid to look like an idiot and say "I think there may be something going on here; I would like to give so-and-so a blessing."

In the first and third encounter, I (or we, in the first case) felt powerful. In the second, I was fearful. I think that makes a difference. Now I was nervous in all three, but one can be nervous and still confident, and I think confidence is a big part of it. Maybe faith is a better word. So, fill yourself with faith, confidence, power. This is a fight of a different kind, and your state of mind is the first battle that you must win. In some spare time, just think about how you would gather to yourself as much spiritual power as you could, so that you have a plan just in case.

Next, if you have ready access to someone who is going to make a net contribution to your power and confidence, call on them. If not, go it alone. In the first case, my companion and I had confidence in one another. In the second, the elder's quorum president I was working with was scared spitless. In the third, I couldn't think of anyone who would have been a net benefit (the person I was working on was the branch president, who "out-ranked" me and he would have been my first choice). In yet another case that I did not describe because my role was only a silent supporter, I was quite confident that the person I was supporting could do it (and he did). So pick allies that will add to, not detract from, your strength.

Schwartzkopf 'em. Stormin' Norman used every asset he had available to overwhelm the enemy, and that's what you want to do. Consecrated oil is good, calling on angels to assist (which by the way is a privilege NOT limited to priesthood holders) is good, praying with the person is good, all of that and more helps. If the Spirit tells you to do something, DO IT - it might help more than you would think. The Spirit told me to use consecrated oil that first time, and it helped. Might have made the difference, I dunno. But you don't want a fair fight, you want to dominate, and this is primarily a battle on the plane of energy (for lack of a better word) so that's where you will win it.

Even if you lose the battle, you can still win the war. The girl in the second encounter eventually won her fight, and I think she did so by "turning up the heat". I think that it requires a substantial effort on the entity's part to maintain an invasion of an unwilling person, so make 'it even harder for 'em. The girl and her fiancee prayed together, they fasted, and she would say to herself affirmations of her fiancee's love for her that he had written for her. And they pressed forward with their plan to get married. Perhaps hers was the kind that only comes out by fasting and prayer. Anyway I think she turned up the heat on it and made herself an inhospitable environment to the point where it just got worn down and left.

Anger doesn't work; that seems to be like fighting a fire with gasoline. The right words delivered in the right format are not guaranteed if there is no power behind them, which is one of the reasons I emphasize dominating the energy battle. In the two that were relatively quick victories the format used was perhaps unorthodox: an anointing, and then a blessing that included a command "in the name of Jesus Christ" that the entity leave. For the second victory (which used the Schwartzkopf approach), the entity left well before the command, so that battle had already been won before we even got to that point.

Both times that oil was used, the entity was weakend by it. I think the oil is very powerful because it somehow taps into the combined enegy (faith, priesthood, tradition, expectation) of not just the people doing the anointing, not just the people who consecrated the oil, but of an entire united religion of millions of good people. And if the entity has been driven out before when oil was used, or has buddies that have been, then its energy and faith are weakened, and its expectation is that it will be evicted. So the oil helps to win the energy battle.

I have no idea how representative my experiences are; the sample size is too small. So if the Spirit tells you something different, go with that. I write this just as my own opinion based on limited experience, and maybe it will be better than nothing.

I caution against blaming the victim for the attack. Joseph Smith was paralyzed for some time by the entity that attacked him, and the reason for the attack is that he was a high-value target. Unless you know otherwise, give the victim the benefit of the doubt here. They did not ask for this, and they're probably no more deserving of an attack than you are.

If you are not a Melchizedek priesthood holder, simply do not claim Melchizedek priesthood authority. You can do everything else described here. See Mark 16:17-18.

Imho.

stYro

[SilverKnight]

Thanks, maupayman.

As for what works and what doesn't, I'll assemble some thoughts. I'll be going with the "entity invasion" paradigm instead of the "mental illness" paradigm, based on the feedback I got from the people I worked with in the first and third case. DISCLAIMER: The following is only the opinion of a former Mormon.

If you have a pretty good spiritual barometer, and you're in a situation with someone who exhibits some of the symptoms I've described, pay attention to your barometer. It's not going to hit you over the head. And if it isn't working, something may be blocking it. So if you're getting zero guidance when you would normally expect to, fall back on your reasoning mind and use your best judgment. Don't be afraid to look like an idiot and say "I think there may be something going on here; I would like to give so-and-so a blessing."

In the first and third encounter, I (or we, in the first case) felt powerful. In the second, I was fearful. I think that makes a difference. Now I was nervous in all three, but one can be nervous and still confident, and I think confidence is a big part of it. Maybe faith is a better word. So, fill yourself with faith, confidence, power. This is a fight of a different kind, and your state of mind is the first battle that you must win. In some spare time, just think about how you would gather to yourself as much spiritual power as you could, so that you have a plan just in case.

Next, if you have ready access to someone who is going to make a net contribution to your power and confidence, call on them. If not, go it alone. In the first case, my companion and I had confidence in one another. In the second, the elder's quorum president I was working with was scared spitless. In the third, I couldn't think of anyone who would have been a net benefit (the person I was working on was the branch president, who "out-ranked" me and he would have been my first choice). In yet another case that I did not describe because my role was only a silent supporter, I was quite confident that the person I was supporting could do it (and he did). So pick allies that will add to, not detract from, your strength.

Schwartzkopf 'em. Stormin' Norman used every asset he had available to overwhelm the enemy, and that's what you want to do. Consecrated oil is good, calling on angels to assist (which by the way is a privilege NOT limited to priesthood holders) is good, praying with the person is good, all of that and more helps. If the Spirit tells you to do something, DO IT - it might help more than you would think. The Spirit told me to use consecrated oil that first time, and it helped. Might have made the difference, I dunno. But you don't want a fair fight, you want to dominate, and this is primarily a battle on the plane of energy (for lack of a better word) so that's where you will win it.

Even if you lose the battle, you can still win the war. The girl in the second encounter eventually won her fight, and I think she did so by "turning up the heat". I think that it requires a substantial effort on the entity's part to maintain an invasion of an unwilling person, so make 'it even harder for 'em. The girl and her fiancee prayed together, they fasted, and she would say to herself affirmations of her fiancee's love for her that he had written for her. And they pressed forward with their plan to get married. Perhaps hers was the kind that only comes out by fasting and prayer. Anyway I think she turned up the heat on it and made herself an inhospitable environment to the point where it just got worn down and left.

Anger doesn't work; that seems to be like fighting a fire with gasoline. The right words delivered in the right format are not guaranteed if there is no power behind them, which is one of the reasons I emphasize dominating the energy battle. In the two that were relatively quick victories the format used was perhaps unorthodox: an anointing, and then a blessing that included a command "in the name of Jesus Christ" that the entity leave. For the second victory (which used the Schwartzkopf approach), the entity left well before the command, so that battle had already been won before we even got to that point.

Both times that oil was used, the entity was weakend by it. I think the oil is very powerful because it somehow taps into the combined enegy (faith, priesthood, tradition, expectation) of not just the people doing the anointing, not just the people who consecrated the oil, but of an entire united religion of millions of good people. And if the entity has been driven out before when oil was used, or has buddies that have been, then its energy and faith are weakened, and its expectation is that it will be evicted. So the oil helps to win the energy battle.

I have no idea how representative my experiences are; the sample size is too small. So if the Spirit tells you something different, go with that. I write this just as my own opinion based on limited experience, and maybe it will be better than nothing.

I caution against blaming the victim for the attack. Joseph Smith was paralyzed for some time by the entity that attacked him, and the reason for the attack is that he was a high-value target. Unless you know otherwise, give the victim the benefit of the doubt here. They did not ask for this, and they're probably no more deserving of an attack than you are.

If you are not a Melchizedek priesthood holder, simply do not claim Melchizedek priesthood authority. You can do everything else described here. See Mark 16:17-18.

Imho.

stYro

ROFL!

Never have I heard such a detailed treatise on the proper fighting of demons!

You're at least a level 19 Satan Slayer.

You really should submit this to the church for publication.

The church's current demon combat guidelines are so outdated.