Duncan Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 Elder L. Edward Brown formerly of the 70 talks about this at a BYUI devotional from some years agohttp://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2003_01_14_Brown.htm
theresa11 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Does anybody see any contradiction in the idea that 'evil forces' may posses someone and the belief in free agency?I can wrap my head around the concept that some people believe there is an adversary to goodness that would set traps of temptation externally so mankind would follow a 'wrong path' (by choosing to do so). But the idea that this adversary could affect a person's actions from within his or her own soul seem to contradict the idea that 'God' gave man free-agency. I would think that this free-agency would be absolute and not interruptible by outside influences internally.Does this imply that 'Satan' can take away your free agency?
theresa11 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 First of all its called Agency not free agency , and second If were living right keeping to the Iron rod we can tune them out . Yes they are trying to re direct us ,but we dont have to listen .
theresa11 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Back during my Mormon days, I was directly involved in two such incidents. They were rather vivid experiences.I cannot explain how or why "possession" happens, but there was no evidence that either of the victims consciously "invited" it, beyond being imperfect people like the rest of us. They were certainly not evil. In fact, from what I know of them, one might speculate that they were "high value targets". Apparently so was Mary Magdalene, out of whom Jesus cast seven devils. I don't believe mental illness (schizophrenia) was a factor in either case. Depression due to a bad marriage may have played a role in one case. stYro
theresa11 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I had a friend she said that her husband used to get a call almost every night to cast out a demon from some one, he being LDS. She said there was a cloud of evil over the whole town , they lived in the next town over. I left a town that didn't feel very spiritual , I was prompted to leave, since that time I grew spiritually.
Jason Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Does anybody see any contradiction in the idea that 'evil forces' may posses someone and the belief in free agency?I can wrap my head around the concept that some people believe there is an adversary to goodness that would set traps of temptation externally so mankind would follow a 'wrong path' (by choosing to do so). But the idea that this adversary could affect a person's actions from within his or her own soul seem to contradict the idea that 'God' gave man free-agency. I would think that this free-agency would be absolute and not interruptible by outside influences internally.Does this imply that 'Satan' can take away your free agency?Satan cannot take anyone's free agency. Possession in my experience only happens when someone invites it. They might not know exactly what they are inviting, but they know they aren't doing right.
maupayman Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I am just going to leave it at thatOf course you are, in typical fashion. I would love to be able to believe in these types of claims. Every time I have seen anything of this nature, it has always been something other than what was assumed. Any time I have had someone describe one of these experiences to me, I have always found the story far less frightening than the people let on. I would love for someone to actually document a case of possession. Film it for others to see. We always have to take believers at their word.
Jason Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 We always have to take believers at their word.Yep, it's that blasted "Faith" thing again.
Mansquatch Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 If you can be filled with the Holy Ghost, because he is a personage of spirit and can dwell in you, then why would it not work for the other team too? You must receive the Holy Ghost to have it, just as you must allow evil in. There are people that I know who always have evil in them and you can feel it. There are different types of course, depending on what type of devil people have let into their lives. Possession, in my view which may be similar to many other LDS, is much simpler than vomit spewing and heads twisting around (although it can be frightening).
SilverKnight Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 How do LDS view such matters? Do LDS believe that demonic possession is possible? Does the LDS Church have a history of performing exorcisms? What is the LDS view on Satan and demonic influences in our world?As you can see, many LDS definitely believe in it, and regard it as so 'spooky' that it's best not talked about.Note that these characteristics are identical to that of urban legends and ghost stories:- It always happened to someone someone else knew.- It was accompanied by a dark 'feeling' and nothing tangible.- It always seems to happen to gullible people, never skeptical ones.- Details and witnesses are scant, but somehow it's still always very 'real'.I personally think it's complete bunk more easily explained by mental illness and self-induced hysteria.The leadership of the LDS church also seems not to put too much stock in it, as there are no formal exorcism rites, no talks, no mention in publications, and no training whatsoever on the subject.
Mansquatch Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 As you can see, many LDS definitely believe in it, and regard it as so 'spooky' that it's best not talked about.I have an experience that I do not share out of respect for the man that it happened to and because it is now a sacred experience to me and I do not want to put it out there just to be mocked or derided. (Pearls/swine etc.)- It always happened to someone someone else knew.Mine was first-hand experience.- It was accompanied by a dark 'feeling' and nothing tangible.Mine was the 'feeling' and seeing.- It always seems to happen to gullible people, never skeptical ones.I consider myself skeptical, but who knows?- Details and witnesses are scant, but somehow it's still always very 'real'.I guess 3 witnesses might be scant but I am one of them.The leadership of the LDS church also seems not to put too much stock in it, as there are no formal exorcism rites, no talks, no mention in publications, and no training whatsoever on the subject.From the LDS Bible Dictionary:Since the devil and his premortal angels have no physical body of flesh and bones, they often seek to possess the bodies of mortal beings. There are many such instances recorded in scripture. Such can be evicted by the power of faith in Jesus Christ and the exercise of the holy priesthood. Jesus gave this power to his disciples.Are scriptures considered "publications"?Matt. 9:32; 12:22;Mark 1:24; 5:7;Luke 8:30Acts 19:15Mosiah 3:6
SilverKnight Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I have an experience that I do not share out of respect for the man that it happened to and because it is now a sacred experience to me and I do not want to put it out there just to be mocked or derided. (Pearls/swine etc.)Of course.You have this harrowing encounter with a demon that is so terrifying and real (and sacred?) that...You refuse to talk about it.Precisely my point.
Jason Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 What is the likely response of the forum to someone talking about an encounter with a real possession? Is it "okay, I believe you now"?
Mansquatch Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Of course.You have this harrowing encounter with a demon that is so terrifying and real (and sacred?) that...You refuse to talk about it.Precisely my point.Precisely my point"mocked or derided"
TAO Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Of course.You have this harrowing encounter with a demon that is so terrifying and real (and sacred?) that...You refuse to talk about it.Precisely my point.Silver Knight, there are experiences too private to be shared. You should respect Mansquatch's wish for privacy.
mfbukowski Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Silver Knight, there are experiences too private to be shared. You should respect Mansquatch's wish for privacy.Maybe he should not have brought it up.
Mansquatch Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Maybe he should not have brought it up.My thoughts exactly.
Gohan Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 It's very hard to deal with this particular subject, most everyone tends to be a natural skeptic. When it comes down to it, it's kind of like a jacked-up version of a testimony. Only way you're really going to know is if you experience it for yourself. Arguing that it exists, and trying to prove it that way seems to be futile.
maupayman Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Yep, it's that blasted "Faith" thing again.Having faith in God is one thing, faith in people is another. You don't have faith in Muslim spiritual claims, I extend that same skepticism to you.
maupayman Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 What is the likely response of the forum to someone talking about an encounter with a real possession? Is it "okay, I believe you now"?Give it a try, it would be better than "take my word for it"
Jason Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Having faith in God is one thing, faith in people is another. You don't have faith in Muslim spiritual claims, I extend that same skepticism to you.Who says I don't have faith in Muslim spiritual claims? Perhaps not all of them, but I have no problem believing that good Muslims can have authentic spiritual experiences. My point was that yes, it does in fact require faith to believe spritual claims. That is kind of the point.
Jason Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Give it a try, it would be better than "take my word for it"No it wouldn't. Even if a detailed personal experience is presented, it would still be "take my word for it."
maupayman Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 No it wouldn't. Even if a detailed personal experience is presented, it would still be "take my word for it."It would be far more specific and helpful, for us struggling to understand the process, than the usual responses. I don't understand the whole, its too sacred to discuss claim. My father had a similar experience, which he would never tell me about. When he finally did, lets just say it was not nearly as intense as he made it seem. There were numerous other possible explanations for the experience.
maupayman Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Who says I don't have faith in Muslim spiritual claims? Perhaps not all of them, but I have no problem believing that good Muslims can have authentic spiritual experiences. My point was that yes, it does in fact require faith to believe spritual claims. That is kind of the point.You have made my point. You don't trust all of their claims, neither do I. I extend that thinking to your secret devil posession experiences as well.
DH Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I think regular exorcising is healthy. That, combined with fasting (or a healthy diet) and prayer, is very effective for casting out the Lipid Demons.
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