Zakuska Posted January 28, 2011 Author Posted January 28, 2011 Vance,You not only did not nail it, you missed it. I answered the question in quite some detail here.Theres a problem with step 2 Rob.2. A sincere person will not ask for something he already has, or to know something he already knows.Hezekiah was a "sincere person" who "knew" he had the Lords favor. Yet when this pagan King shows up dropping the name of YHWH and saying he had been sent. It really through Hezekiah for a loop, so much so that he told him to shut up so the men on the wall wouldn't hear him, thus resulting in a letter which sent him to the verge of the abyss in prayer now didn't it?
Rob Bowman Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Zakuska,Hezekiah knew that the Lord was his God and that the Lord had made a covenant with David and his line. However, he did not know what the Lord would do in this situation, or whether he would do anything. Many of David's own psalms were laments or complaints about times when the Lord did not stop David's enemies from harassing him. Hezekiah knew that he could not presume that the Lord would deliver Jerusalem from Sennacherib; it was something he needed to ask the Lord to do.
Rob Bowman Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 USU78,Congratulations on exceeding 10,000 posts.So far as I know, no one here is discouraging prayer. What makes you think anyone is doing so?Why would anybody discourage prayer? Cui bono?
Vance Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Vance,You not only did not nail it, you missed it. I answered the question in quite some detail here.No, that isn't an answer to my question at all.Read the question again and then answer it. (Hint: It is a yes or no question.)
Vance Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Why would anybody discourage prayer? Cui bono?Perhaps they are afraid that if they actually followed the formula in Moroni, they might get the answer that they have been fighting their whole lives.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Perhaps they are afraid that if they actually followed the formula in Moroni, they might get the answer that they have been fighting their whole lives.You know, the interesting thing in debates that involve praying about the BoM and mainstream Christians, is that when they object to praying about the BoM, generally the claim is "were in the bible are we told to pray about the BoM". So we generally try to find examples of people in the bible praying about certain things. I think my response to this question might be useful here. It would seem that while Rob does a very good job in defending his position, and he seems to discourage the idea of praying to God about something like the BoM, I would ask, were in the bible does it say not to pray about teh BoM? IOW there only seems to be very limit counsel in the bible on what not to pray for and praying to know the truth of a book or document seems not to be on that list.I am really not interested in getting into a debate about how archaeology should back something up fully first. I am talking about such instances were the sciences cannot account for something such as teh BoM.Any way carry on.
USU78 Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 So far as I know, no one here is discouraging prayer. What makes you think anyone is doing so?We hear it frequently, both as missionaries in our youth (and sometimes our dotage) and on these and other internet message boards. When somebody's encouraged to pray to G-d concerning the BoM and JSJr and potential membership in the Church, people's pastors and "friends" discourage prayer on the subjects. Perhaps RB doesn't take that position, but it's difficult to tell. After all, in this thread, for example, the OP sites to an instance of prayer being enjoined to find out interesting and/or useful stuff . . . like whether Deuteronomy is legit scripture. RB argues against that being the message, so it's tough to know whether a metapoint is being made in the course of arguing the specifics of the scripture in question.So you'll no doubt pardon us if we are skeptical of a claim that arguing against the notion that injunctions to prayer are present in the Tanakh is not the functional equivalent of discouraging prayer to find out capital "T" Truth.
Rob Bowman Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Mola,You wrote:It would seem that while Rob does a very good job in defending his position, and he seems to discourage the idea of praying to God about something like the BoM, I would ask, were in the bible does it say not to pray about teh BoM?I don't discourage anyone from "praying to God about something like the BOM." I don't discourage anyone from praying to God about the BOM. Please go back and read what I said again. I was quite clearly in favor of praying about the Book of Mormon.
Rob Bowman Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 USU78:I'm going to keep pointing people to the same post where I made my position very clear until someone has the courage to engage my actual position. So far, not one Mormon has gotten it right. My guess is that the reason is this: It's easier to criticize the weaker position "don't pray about the Book of Mormon" than the position I have taken.We hear it frequently, both as missionaries in our youth (and sometimes our dotage) and on these and other internet message boards. When somebody's encouraged to pray to G-d concerning the BoM and JSJr and potential membership in the Church, people's pastors and "friends" discourage prayer on the subjects. Perhaps RB doesn't take that position, but it's difficult to tell. After all, in this thread, for example, the OP sites to an instance of prayer being enjoined to find out interesting and/or useful stuff . . . like whether Deuteronomy is legit scripture. RB argues against that being the message, so it's tough to know whether a metapoint is being made in the course of arguing the specifics of the scripture in question.So you'll no doubt pardon us if we are skeptical of a claim that arguing against the notion that injunctions to prayer are present in the Tanakh is not the functional equivalent of discouraging prayer to find out capital "T" Truth.
Rob Bowman Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Vance,Perhaps you are afraid that if your fellow Mormons prayed about the Book of Mormon in the way that I have suggested, they might learn something new.Perhaps they are afraid that if they actually followed the formula in Moroni, they might get the answer that they have been fighting their whole lives.
Zakuska Posted January 28, 2011 Author Posted January 28, 2011 Zakuska,Hezekiah knew that the Lord was his God and that the Lord had made a covenant with David and his line. However, he did not know what the Lord would do in this situation, or whether he would do anything. Many of David's own psalms were laments or complaints about times when the Lord did not stop David's enemies from harassing him. Hezekiah knew that he could not presume that the Lord would deliver Jerusalem from Sennacherib; it was something he needed to ask the Lord to do.Preciscely. EOL
bluebell Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Vance,Perhaps you are afraid that if your fellow Mormons prayed about the Book of Mormon in the way that I have suggested, they might learn something new.I tried reading that post that you linked to, but i'm not sure i'm understanding what you are saying.Are you saying that unless people pray in a specific way, God, through the Holy Ghost, won't answer them?Like, if someone prayed and said "God, is the Book of Mormon your word? Does it teach truth?" God wouldn't answer them because they did not ask in the right way?I'm sincerely trying to understand what you are saying and not being snarky.
Vance Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Vance,Perhaps you are afraid that if your fellow Mormons prayed about the Book of Mormon in the way that I have suggested, they might learn something new.Not at all!As I expected, you still haven't answered my question.Perhaps you are afraid that if your fellow anti-Mormons saw an honest answer from you, they would disown you.
Vance Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 I tried reading that post that you linked to, but i'm not sure i'm understanding what you are saying.Are you saying that unless people pray in a specific way, God, through the Holy Ghost, won't answer them?Like, if someone prayed and said "God, is the Book of Mormon your word? Does it teach truth?" God wouldn't answer them because they did not ask in the right way?I'm sincerely trying to understand what you are saying and not being snarky.Don't feel bad if Bowman's "logic" didn't make sense.
bluebell Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Don't feel bad if Bowman's "logic" didn't make sense.Given the medium we are trying to communicate in, none of us make sense all the time. I'd like to understand him though, so hopefully he will clarify.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 Mola,You wrote:I don't discourage anyone from "praying to God about something like the BOM." I don't discourage anyone from praying to God about the BOM. Please go back and read what I said again. I was quite clearly in favor of praying about the Book of Mormon.I know waht you said Rob. I did use the word "seems". Not that you are actually saying not to. I just thought I would clarify that for you. I should have used better language. I had a feeling you thought I was stating your position as one of "Do not pray about the BoM".
Zakuska Posted January 29, 2011 Author Posted January 29, 2011 Given the medium we are trying to communicate in, none of us make sense all the time. I'd like to understand him though, so hopefully he will clarify.And my name is Mud.
Rob Bowman Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 bluebell,First of all, God is concerned about the heart, not about you getting the wording of a prayer just right.Second, I am saying that if they ask God in such a way that what they really mean is "God please confirm what I've already decided I want to believe" then one cannot expect God to be involved in answering such a prayer in the way one expects. Rather, what is likely to happen is that the person who prays with this intent will become convinced that God said yes when in fact he did not.Third, what I have suggested is that people pray in such a way, with such an attitude, that what they are asking God is to enable them to know whether the Book of Mormon is true or false (rather than simply asking for a validation that it is true), and to ask God to enable them to know the answer in whatever way God sees fit (rather than expecting God necessarily to provide some sort of private revelation).I think that praying "God, is the Book of Mormon your word? Does it teach truth?" presupposes that God must enable you to know the answer to this question by providing some sort of direct, private revelation to you. Such a prayer may reflect an unwillingness to receive the answer through other means (e.g., investigation of the origins of the Book of Mormon, comparing its teachings to that of the Bible, examining Joseph Smith's track record as an inspired translator, etc.).I tried reading that post that you linked to, but i'm not sure i'm understanding what you are saying.Are you saying that unless people pray in a specific way, God, through the Holy Ghost, won't answer them?Like, if someone prayed and said "God, is the Book of Mormon your word? Does it teach truth?" God wouldn't answer them because they did not ask in the right way?I'm sincerely trying to understand what you are saying and not being snarky.
bluebell Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 bluebell,First of all, God is concerned about the heart, not about you getting the wording of a prayer just right.Of course. My question was about what you were saying in your post-not on how God felt about prayer. It was never my intention to confuse what you were saying with what He is concerned about as i don't believe you speak for Him on the subject.I'm sorry if my question was confusing though.Second, I am saying that if they ask God in such a way that what they really mean is "God please confirm what I've already decided I want to believe" then one cannot expect God to be involved in answering such a prayer in the way one expects. Being LDS, i completely agree. It would be like someone reading the BOM with the intent to prove that it's NOT the word of God. They are probably going to get just what they expect.Third, what I have suggested is that people pray in such a way, with such an attitude, that what they are asking God is to enable them to know whether the Book of Mormon is true or false (rather than simply asking for a validation that it is true), and to ask God to enable them to know the answer in whatever way God sees fit (rather than expecting God necessarily to provide some sort of private revelation).This just seems like a way for you to dismiss anyone who claims to have received a revelation that the BOM is true. I see nothing else of worth in this idea that a person must ask for revelation in a specific way or he WILL be deceived.I think that praying "God, is the Book of Mormon your word? Does it teach truth?" presupposes that God must enable you to know the answer to this question by providing some sort of direct, private revelation to you.But praying "is the book of mormon true" doesn't do that?That makes no sense. Such a prayer may reflect an unwillingness to receive the answer through other means (e.g., investigation of the origins of the Book of Mormon, comparing its teachings to that of the Bible, examining Joseph Smith's track record as an inspired translator, etc.).Would you sincerely counsel people to discover whether or not Jesus truly existed and is the Son of God and their Savior by investigating the origins of the bible, comparing the teachings of the NT to the OT, and examining the track record of all the prophets?Are you comfortable with the fact that there are bible scholars which have become atheists after such study? Did relying on such study bring people closer to the truth?Does that say anything about the dangers of relying on such measures to find out divine truth?Or are you of the mindframe that anything that keeps someone from believing in the Book of Mormon is good, regardless of how it might be harmful in other situations?
USU78 Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 I think that praying "God, is the Book of Mormon your word? Does it teach truth?" presupposes that God must enable you to know the answer to this question by providing some sort of direct, private revelation to you. Luke 11:-13 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Ask . . . seek . . . knock . . . three synonyms for prayer.I am convinced the Father, knowing our hearts, can give us what we're really asking for even if we don't formulate our prayers as RB would demand. He stands, His arms outstretched, His hands open.
Rob Bowman Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 USU78,You wrote:I am convinced the Father, knowing our hearts, can give us what we're really asking for even if we don't formulate our prayers as RB would demand. He stands, His arms outstretched, His hands open.Since I didn't tell anyone how to formulate their prayers, and even said that God looks on the heart and not our exact wording, you are knocking down a straw man.
bluebell Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 USU78,You wrote:Since I didn't tell anyone how to formulate their prayers, and even said that God looks on the heart and not our exact wording, you are knocking down a straw man.Isn't that what you were implying though? That if a prayer was worded a certain way it would make it hard for someone to get a correct answer?Maybe I'm still not understanding you.
Rob Bowman Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 bluebell,You wrote:My question was about what you were saying in your post-not on how God felt about prayer. It was never my intention to confuse what you were saying with what He is concerned about as i don't believe you speak for Him on the subject.That's okay; I don't believe you speak for Him on the subject, either. Now, where has such pronouncements gotten us?At different turns in your response, you agreed with me, disagreed with me, and claimed that what I said made no sense. But I was making one point: we should pray, but not in such a way as to dictate to God what answer we get or how we get it.You wrote:Would you sincerely counsel people to discover whether or not Jesus truly existed and is the Son of God and their Savior by investigating the origins of the bible, comparing the teachings of the NT to the OT, and examining the track record of all the prophets?Are you comfortable with the fact that there are bible scholars which have become atheists after such study? Did relying on such study bring people closer to the truth?Does that say anything about the dangers of relying on such measures to find out divine truth?Or are you of the mindframe that anything that keeps someone from believing in the Book of Mormon is good, regardless of how it might be harmful in other situations?The last question is a gratuitous and rhetorical swipe at my sincerity. I don't appreciate it.My view is that if someone really seeks the truth about the Bible, they will find it. Atheist scholars of the Bible who claim they became atheists after investigating the evidence are not really being honest. Surely, as a Mormon, you would agree with me on that! The evidence clearly shows that God exists. Atheists discount that evidence for philosophical reasons, not because there isn't good evidence. The historical evidence that Jesus rose from the grave is actually far better than one would have a right to expect about an event that happened two thousand years ago.To answer your first question, I would counsel people who want to know if Jesus really existed and was the divine Savior to read the Gospels for themselves. If they want to know what evidence supports the Gospels, I will happily provide it to them. If they want to know if the NT agrees with the OT, I will show them that it does. I would not duck any of these questions by counseling people that they just need to pray and ask God for a private revelation that the NT is true. Instead I would tell them, if they believe in God, to ask God to guide them in their search for the truth about Jesus, for the honesty and integrity to follow the evidence wherever it may lead. The NT writers themselves urged people to accept the gospel on the basis of the evidence. They appealed to the facts of the empty tomb and Jesus' resurrection appearances to validate Jesus' resurrection. They appealed to the OT and explained how Jesus fulfilled OT prophetic expectations and hopes. No true prophet, apostle, or teacher in the Bible is ever afraid of honest inquiry into the facts. None ever counsels against such honest inquiry. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" is not in the Bible.
Rob Bowman Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 bluebell,You wrote:Isn't that what you were implying though? That if a prayer was worded a certain way it would make it hard for someone to get a correct answer?No. How could I be implying that when I explicitly denied it?You wrote:Maybe I'm still not understanding you.Apparently. I just replied to your earlier post, so perhaps that will help.
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