Vance Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 So, then are you admitting that God can and does answer prayers requesting to know the truth of something? (As in Moroni's promise.)I see you, as expected, didn't answer the question.
Rob Bowman Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Vance,Knock off the smart-aleck asides ("as expected") and maybe I might be interested in discussing this with you.I see you, as expected, didn't answer the question.
Vance Posted January 26, 2011 Posted January 26, 2011 Vance,Knock off the smart-aleck asides ("as expected") and maybe I might be interested in discussing this with you.Did you actually answer the question?No.It is what is on the table. Continued discussion awaits.
Nathair/|\ Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 I will say that God doesn't answer some prayers in the way we want, or in a way we understand until later on in life. But I do think that God answers all (righteous) prayers in his own time.I would say that God does not answer prayers that ask for unrighteous things. For instance, if I prayed fervently for the death of (insert person's name here); I would say that God would not answer my prayer no matter how intently I prayed because no matter how hateful and evil the person was, I would be wrong in asking for that in the first place.Did He not answer that prayer or did he simply say, "No?"
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Did you actually answer the question?No.It is what is on the table. Continued discussion awaits.
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Folks, the argument of the opening post -- that Isaiah 37 illustrates or exemplifies the same principle as Moroni 10:4-5 -- has been thoroughly refuted. Further discussion in this thread seems off topic, unless someone wishes to defend the argument from Isaiah 37.
Vex Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Folks, the argument of the opening post -- that Isaiah 37 illustrates or exemplifies the same principle as Moroni 10:4-5 -- has been thoroughly refuted. Further discussion in this thread seems off topic, unless someone wishes to defend the argument from Isaiah 37.I beg to differ, you have attacked a strawman but have not attempted to address my synopsis of the two selections in question which correlate the two quite succinctly.
Hughes Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Rob Bowman, on 26 January 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:Let me offer one observation as to what I find troubling about this. The Moroni challenge as it is usually presented is not, "Read the Book of Mormon and ask God to grant you wisdom to discern whether it is true or not." Rather, the usual instruction is something like this, "Read the Book of Mormon and ask God to give you a testimony that it is true." Such a prayer presupposes that the Book of Mormon is true. That's a problem.Since it is true, what other presupposition should it have?The problem is not with the Book of Mormon, it lies elsewhere.IF it's true, and one knows it's true already, then the prayer isn't from a genuinely seeking heart. If one is truly seeking, one doesn't pray for a testimony that it is true, based on the Scripture in Isaiah 37.
Vance Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 I see you, as expected, didn't answer the question.Talk about nailing it.And Bowman hasn't "refuted" anything here.
ElfLord Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Talk about nailing it.And Bowman hasn't "refuted" anything here.I whole heartedly agree...1) The king beseiging Israel claims that YHWH has sent him to destroy it.2) Hezekiah takes the letter to God in the temple and lays it out before the Lord and tells him to read the letter too. 3) Hezekiah then prays and asks for forgiveness for any breach he and his people have made and petitions the Lord to protect them4) The truth is then manifested by the Lord through a prophet lead by the Spirit.
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Vex,Your attempt to draw a parallel between Isaiah 37 and Moroni 10 was too superficial to be taken seriously. You wrote:I'm not seeing how this makes a point against Moroni 10. Perhaps evaluation of the position should be considered.In sum; Hezekiah prays for an answer to his desire for deliverance.Moroni states that one may pray for an answer to their desires for truth.The only difference from these events appears to be the object of desire.All you are really saying here is that in both passages, a human being prays for something. No kidding. This isn't sufficient to salvage the argument of the original post, which was that the Moroni challenge has some precedent in Isaiah 37 where Hezekiah supposedly had prayed to know the truth of some writing. That claim doesn't hold up.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 IF it's true, and one knows it's true already, then the prayer isn't from a genuinely seeking heart. If one is truly seeking, one doesn't pray for a testimony that it is true, based on the Scripture in Isaiah 37.I have never heard one person claim that they knew it was true before they prayed about it.This sounds alot like a straw man.
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 ElfLord,You wrote:I whole heartedly agree...1) The king beseiging Israel claims that YHWH has sent him to destroy it.2) Hezekiah takes the letter to God in the temple and lays it out before the Lord and tells him to read the letter too. 3) Hezekiah then prays and asks for forgiveness for any breach he and his people have made and petitions the Lord to protect them4) The truth is then manifested by the Lord through a prophet lead by the Spirit.In fact:1) Sennacherib did at first claim that Yahweh had sent him to destroy the land (Is. 36:10), but later abandoned this claim and asserted that just as the gods of other nations had been powerless to stop him, Yahweh would also not be able to protect Israel (Is. 36:15, 18-20; 37:10-12). This was the claim made in the letter that was sent to Hezekiah (37:14), as is clear from Hezekiah's prayer in which he complained about Sennacherib falsely comparing Yahweh to the powerless gods of the nations (37:15-20).3) I don't see anything in Isaiah 36-37 supporting your statement that Hezekiah prayed for forgiveness for anything he or his people may have done, though I'm not sure this has any relevance to our disagreement.4) Isaiah sent word to Hezekiah letting him know that Yahweh would protect Jerusalem and make Sennacherib go away (Is. 37:21-35).Again, there is no precedent here for the Moroni challenge. Hezekiah was not praying for a testimony to confirm that some writing claiming to be the word of Yahweh was truly from him. Rather, Hezekiah was praying for Yahweh to respond to a writing that mocked Yahweh and threatened his people. What Hezekiah asked for was action by Yahweh against Sennacherib. There simply is no legitimate comparison here with Moroni 10.As Bill Hamblin has recently pointed out, not every argument in defense of the Book of Mormon is a good one. Here's one I would suggest you give up.
Vex Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Vex,Your attempt to draw a parallel between Isaiah 37 and Moroni 10 was too superficial to be taken seriously. You wrote:All you are really saying here is that in both passages, a human being prays for something. No kidding. This isn't sufficient to salvage the argument of the original post, which was that the Moroni challenge has some precedent in Isaiah 37 where Hezekiah supposedly had prayed to know the truth of some writing. That claim doesn't hold up.I would think you would understand that it still holds relevance (see definition 4: link).Since it is obvious, the correlation exists (contrary to popular opinion: The easiest to recognize is most often what is overlooked) let us continue down the path which you have conveniently overlooked:The synopsis I have provided correlates and factors into Moroni 10 without issue, if you don't agree, why not? Furthermore the truth of it is called into question as Zak has already shown as the king states within another letter (Isa 36:10) the Lord told him to go up and attack (which you have yet to counter). Therefor your purported refutation stands wanting.Point-in-fact it can be shown to correlate even further; Hezekiah desires that his kingdom not be destroyed. He therefor petitions the Lord to spare him (indicating that he believed the veracity of the letter) and the kingdom. Especially the supposition that the Lord did not reside with Hezekiah (see 37:10) and that Jerusalem would be handed over to the Assyrians. Hence his plea for salvation from the Lord further dictating the test of veracity of the message.
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Mola,You wrote:I have never heard one person claim that they knew it was true before they prayed about it.This sounds alot like a straw man.It isn't. Let me restate the argument:1. Either a person already knows that the Book of Mormon is true before praying, or he does not.2. A sincere person will not ask for something he already has, or to know something he already knows.3. Therefore, if a person already knows that the Book of Mormon is true, and is sincere, he will not pray to know that it is true, because he already knows it is true.4. Therefore, if a person already knows that the Book of Mormon is true, and prays to know that it is true, his prayer is not sincere.5. If a person does not already know that the Book of Mormon is true, and is sincere, he will want to know whether it is true or false.6. Furthermore, if a person does not already know that the Book of Mormon is true, he also does not know if there is such a thing as a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.7. A sincere person will not assume when he prays that something is true that he does not yet know is true.8. Therefore, if a person does not already know that the Book of Mormon is true, and is sincere, he will not ask for a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.The first half of the argument is not a straw man, but simply setting out all the possibilities (which begin with statement #1) for the sake of completeness.Again, the point is that a proper prayer would be for the Lord to give you wisdom in discerning whether the Book of Mormon is true or false. Such a prayer (A) expresses openness to either possibility being the case. It also (B) leaves it up to the Lord for him to decide how he will enable you to know whether the Book of Mormon is true or false. I'm all for prayer, but prayer to be sincere and faithful must be open to the truth whatever it might be and to be open to learning the truth in any way that the Lord might choose. This means being open to the Lord showing you that the Book of Mormon is false; and it means being open to the evidence, either way.
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Vex,I think my reply to ElfLord should take care of answering this as well. Your reading of the passage is simply wrong. Hezekiah did not believe Sennacherib's letter, and if he had, this would hardly be precedent for the Moroni 10 challenge!I would think you would understand that it still holds relevance (see definition 4: link).Since it is obvious, the correlation exists (contrary to popular opinion: The easiest to recognize is most often what is overlooked) let us continue down the path which you have conveniently overlooked:The synopsis I have provided correlates and factors into Moroni 10 without issue, if you don't agree, why not? Furthermore the truth of it is called into question as Zak has already shown as the king states within another letter (Isa 36:10) the Lord told him to go up and attack (which you have yet to counter). Therefor your purported refutation stands wanting.Point-in-fact it can be shown to correlate even further; Hezekiah desires that his kingdom not be destroyed. He therefor petitions the Lord to spare him (indicating that he believed the veracity of the letter) and the kingdom. Especially the supposition that the Lord did not reside with Hezekiah (see 37:10) and that Jerusalem would be handed over to the Assyrians. Hence his plea for salvation from the Lord further dictating the test of veracity of the message.
ElfLord Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 ElfLord,You wrote:In fact:1) Sennacherib did at first claim that Yahweh had sent him to destroy the land (Is. 36:10), but later abandoned this claim and asserted that just as the gods of other nations had been powerless to stop him, Yahweh would also not be able to protect Israel (Is. 36:15, 18-20; 37:10-12). This was the claim made in the letter that was sent to Hezekiah (37:14), as is clear from Hezekiah's prayer in which he complained about Sennacherib falsely comparing Yahweh to the powerless gods of the nations (37:15-20).3) I don't see anything in Isaiah 36-37 supporting your statement that Hezekiah prayed for forgiveness for anything he or his people may have done, though I'm not sure this has any relevance to our disagreement.4) Isaiah sent word to Hezekiah letting him know that Yahweh would protect Jerusalem and make Sennacherib go away (Is. 37:21-35).Again, there is no precedent here for the Moroni challenge. Hezekiah was not praying for a testimony to confirm that some writing claiming to be the word of Yahweh was truly from him. Rather, Hezekiah was praying for Yahweh to respond to a writing that mocked Yahweh and threatened his people. What Hezekiah asked for was action by Yahweh against Sennacherib. There simply is no legitimate comparison here with Moroni 10.As Bill Hamblin has recently pointed out, not every argument in defense of the Book of Mormon is a good one. Here's one I would suggest you give up.What are you always saying Rob? Context... Context... Con... er some such other giberish ?Isaiah 371 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.2 And he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to cthe birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.4 It may be the Lord thy God will hear the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the Lord thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that is left.Rending clothes, dawning sackcloth before entering the house of the Lord for prayer is a sign of petitioning for forgiveness. You bet he did think there was something to what Sennacherib was saying. Isn't that exactly what all Ninveveh did which caused Jonahs 40 day doomsday anouncement to fail? My point still stands.
Vance Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 6. Furthermore, if a person does not already know that the Book of Mormon is true, he also does not know if there is such a thing as a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.But he may know that there is such a thing as a witness of the Holy Ghost.Rom. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:It can bear witness that we are the children of God, it can witness of other truths.1 Jn. 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.7. A sincere person will not assume when he prays that something is true that he does not yet know is true.This is simply an assumption of Bowman's part. There is no reason to conclude that a person wouldn't "assume" something is true prior to praying about it.Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.Did this person have full belief PRIOR to receiving the miracle? No, yet he asked for and received the miracle based on partial belief.Did these people KNOW they would receive miracle or only believe in the possibility of receiving a miracle PRIOR to asking for and receiving one?8. Therefore, if a person does not already know that the Book of Mormon is true, and is sincere, he will not ask for a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true.This step doesn't fit here at all.Bowman is simply attempting to show that God doesn't answer prayers about the truth of the Book of Mormon.His attempt is sloppy and inconsistent.
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 ElfLord,As I said, I don't even know what relevance it is to our discussion whether Hezekiah prayed for forgiveness for himself or his people. But the fact is that rending his clothes was an expression of outrage at Sennacherib's blasphemy, and sackcloth was an expression of mourning. Hezekiah's prayer is recorded for us, so we need not and should not guess that he prayed something other than what the text says. In the case of the book of Jonah, we are told that the king and people of Ninevah fasted, put on sackcloth (nothing about rending their garments), and prayed prayers of repentance (Jonah 3). The two passages are not related except in the use of sackcloth, which can express repentance but can also simply express grief or mourning.The rest of my response remains unanswered, which is fine.What are you always saying Rob? Context... Context... Con... er some such other giberish ?Isaiah 371 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the Lord.2 And he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz.3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to cthe birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.4 It may be the Lord thy God will hear the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the Lord thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that is left.Rending clothes, dawning sackcloth before entering the house of the Lord for prayer is a sign of petitioning for forgiveness. You bet he did think there was something to what Sennacherib was saying. Isn't that exactly what all Ninveveh did which caused Jonahs 40 day doomsday anouncement to fail? My point still stands.
Vex Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Vex,I think my reply to ElfLord should take care of answering this as well. Your reading of the passage is simply wrong. Hezekiah did not believe Sennacherib's letter, and if he had, this would hardly be precedent for the Moroni 10 challenge!To which his response seems to refute your own. Thus you are still found wanting in your refutation.
Rob Bowman Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 Vex,ElfLord's most recent post ignored every point I had made except my response to the one claim he made that I pointed out wasn't even relevant! See my reply to him on that point.To which his response seems to refute your own. Thus you are still found wanting in your refutation.
Vance Posted January 27, 2011 Posted January 27, 2011 ElfLord,As I said, I don't even know what relevance it is to our discussion whether Hezekiah prayed for forgiveness for himself or his people. But the fact is that rending his clothes was an expression of outrage at Sennacherib's blasphemy, and sackcloth was an expression of mourning.Another ASSUMPTION by Bowman.1 Kings 21:25
Rob Bowman Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Vance,Feel free to address the points I raised that I stated were actually relevant to the issue at hand:No one has done so yet.
Vance Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 First things first.So, then are you admitting that God can and does answer prayers requesting to know the truth of something? (As in Moroni's promise.)I see you, as expected, didn't answer the question.Yup! I nailed it.
Rob Bowman Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Vance,You not only did not nail it, you missed it. I answered the question in quite some detail here.
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