Praying about writings to know truth

[Zakuska]

We are often confronted by critics who make fun of the promise in Moroni 10 to pray to know the truth about the Book of Mormon.

Its intresting that King Hezekiah took some letters he had received into the Temple and prayed about their contents to know what his course of action should be.

Isaiah 37

14

[Rob Bowman]

Zakuska,

Your citation of this particular example does no good for your position. In fact, the passage arguably provides biblical evidence against the Moroni 10 test:

• Hezekiah was praying in response to a threatening letter from a pagan king, not in response to reading an alleged scripture.
• Sennacherib's message to Hezekiah was obviously not from the Lord, because in it Sennacherib told Hezekiah not to trust in the Lord (Isa. 37:10, 17)!
• Hezekiah's prayer asks for no information or revelation of truth to him at all (vv. 16-20).
• Hezekiah prays only that the Lord will take notice of Sennacherib's taunts and deliver Jerusalem from that evil king (vv. 17, 20).
• Hezekiah prays that all people will know that the Lord alone is God by observing his deliverance of Jerusalem from Sennacherib (v. 20), not by receiving private revelations.

Say, thanks for bringing up this passage!

We are often confronted by critics who make fun of promise in Moroni 10 to pray to know the truth about thye Book of Mormon.

Its intresting that King Kezekiah took some letters he had received into the Temple and prayed about their contents to know what his course of action should be.

Isaiah 37

14

[Vex]

I'm not seeing how this makes a point against Moroni 10. Perhaps evaluation of the position should be considered.

In sum; Hezekiah prays for an answer to his desire for deliverance.

Moroni states that one may pray for an answer to their desires for truth.

The only difference from these events appears to be the object of desire.

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Your citation of this particular example does no good for your position. In fact, the passage arguably provides biblical evidence against the Moroni 10 test:

• Hezekiah was praying in response to a threatening letter from a pagan king, not in response to reading an alleged scripture.

As far as the investigator is concerned. (and as many evangelicals contend), The BOM is just another letter from a Pagan king.

• Sennacherib's message to Hezekiah was obviously not from the Lord, because in it Sennacherib told Hezekiah not to trust in the Lord (Isa. 37:10, 17)!

Hmmm... Yet Sennacherib... does claim his words come from YHWH.

Isaiah 36

10 And am I now come up without the LORD [YHWH] against this land to destroy it? the LORD [YHWH] said unto me, Go up against this land, and destroy it.

• Hezekiah's prayer asks for no information or revelation of truth to him at all (vv. 16-20).
• Hezekiah prays only that the Lord will take notice of Sennacherib's taunts and deliver Jerusalem from that evil king (vv. 17, 20).
• Hezekiah prays that all people will know that the Lord alone is God by observing his deliverance of Jerusalem from Sennacherib (v. 20), not by receiving private revelations.

Say, thanks for bringing up this passage!

He prays to the Lord for direction, and to know if what Sennacherib said was true that he would take Jerusalem. Hezekiah seems to be repenting and trying to acsertain if He or his nation had done anything that had upset the Lord and God was going to destroy them for it.

[Mansquatch]

Zakuska,

Your citation of this particular example does no good for your position. In fact, the passage arguably provides biblical evidence against the Moroni 10 test:

• Hezekiah was praying in response to a threatening letter from a pagan king, not in response to reading an alleged scripture.
• Sennacherib's message to Hezekiah was obviously not from the Lord, because in it Sennacherib told Hezekiah not to trust in the Lord (Isa. 37:10, 17)!
• Hezekiah's prayer asks for no information or revelation of truth to him at all (vv. 16-20).
• Hezekiah prays only that the Lord will take notice of Sennacherib's taunts and deliver Jerusalem from that evil king (vv. 17, 20).
• Hezekiah prays that all people will know that the Lord alone is God by observing his deliverance of Jerusalem from Sennacherib (v. 20), not by receiving private revelations.

Say, thanks for bringing up this passage!

Your points only make this passage irrelevant to Moroni 10 and do not provide evidence against it.

[Vance]

Your points only make this passage irrelevant to Moroni 10 and do not provide evidence against it.

But only if they were all valid, which they aren't.

But hey, he HAS to maintain the "God doesn't answer prayers" mime.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

Now you MUST know that you are misrepresenting me here. There's no excuse for it.

God answered Hezekiah's prayer. God answers many prayers. There are some prayers, however, to which God will not give an answer.

But only if they were all valid, which they aren't.

But hey, he HAS to maintain the "God doesn't answer prayers" mime.

[Rob Bowman]

Mansquatch,

You wrote:

Your points only make this passage irrelevant to Moroni 10 and do not provide evidence against it.

Well, we've met half-way, at least. That's something. But I wonder why a non-Mormon had to come and point out how egregious a misuse of Isaiah this was? And why is it that a couple of LDS here are actually still trying to defend the argument?

(Edited to refer to Isaiah, as Zakuska correctly pointed out.)

[Vance]

Vance,

Now you MUST know that you are misrepresenting me here. There's no excuse for it.

God answered Hezekiah's prayer. God answers many prayers. There are some prayers, however, to which God will not give an answer.

So there are prayers that God doesn't answer.

So I didn't misrepresent you at all.

You are declaring (as if you can command God) that God doesn't answer prayers.

[Zakuska]

Vance,

Now you MUST know that you are misrepresenting me here. There's no excuse for it.

God answered Hezekiah's prayer. God answers many prayers. There are some prayers, however, to which God will not give an answer.

And here I thought James says "God gives to Man Liberally and Abriadeth not?!"

Will a man give his Child a snake when he asked him for a fish?

[Zakuska]

Mansquatch,

You wrote:

Well, we've met half-way, at least. That's something. But I wonder why a non-Mormon had to come and point out how egregious a misuse of 1 Kings this was? And why is it that a couple of LDS here are actually still trying to defend the argument?

1 Kings? I think you meant Isaiah all though I won't ding you for it because the story appears 3 times. One of which is 1 Kings.

[Zakuska]

So there are prayers that God doesn't answer.

So I didn't misrepresent you at all.

You are declaring (as if you can command God) that God doesn't answer prayers.

However... God did finally quit answering Saul and Saul ended up having to use a witch to get his message across.

[Zakuska]

Yet more examples of books being found, read, and the truth being petitioned from the Lord about what was written:

2 Kings 22

8

[Vance]

However... God did finally quit answering Saul and Saul ended up having to use a witch to get his message across.

Perhaps because Saul was asking amiss.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

[Zakuska]

Perhaps because Saul was asking amiss.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

I wouldn't say that he asked amiss. I would say that he acted amiss. (ie. he didnt abide in the words of God) He did flub up two very distinct instructions from the Lord, and thus it repented God for doing it.

[Vance]

I wouldn't say that he asked amiss. I would say that he acted amiss. (ie. he didnt abide in the words of God) He did flub up two very distinct instructions from the Lord, and thus it repented God for doing it.

So, it wasn't what he was asking that was the problem but rather the way he was asking. He didn't have a sincere heart, or real intent, or faith in God.

[Zakuska]

So, it wasn't what he was asking that was the problem but rather the way he was asking. He didn't have a sincere heart, or real intent, or faith in God.

Bingo.

He said he beleived in God but then When the test came and Samuel was late showing up for the battle. He jumped the gun... offered sacrifice without the priesthood prersent and sent out the troops. Thats one of the reasons why the Kingdom was rent from him and given to another.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

I've heard twisted reasoning before, but this takes the blue ribbon. Telling God that he must answer all prayers is somehow not commanding God, but recognizing that it is God's prerogative not to answer some prayers supposedly is commanding God.

"And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day." (1 Sam. 8:18)

"And Saul inquired of God, 'Shall I go down after the Philistines? Will you give them into the hand of Israel?' But he did not answer him that day." (1 Sam. 14:37)

"And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets." (1 Sam. 28:6)

"They looked, but there was none to save; they cried to the LORD, but he did not answer them." (2 Sam. 22:42; Ps. 18:41)

"I cry to you for help and you do not answer me; I stand, and you only look at me." (Job 30:20, Job speaking)

"O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest. (Ps. 22:2, David speaking)

"Then they will cry to the LORD, but he will not answer them; he will hide his face from them at that time, because they have made their deeds evil." (Micah 3:4)

Q.E.D.

So there are prayers that God doesn't answer.

So I didn't misrepresent you at all.

You are declaring (as if you can command God) that God doesn't answer prayers.

[Vance]

Vance,

I've heard twisted reasoning before, but this takes the blue ribbon. Telling God that he must answer all prayers is somehow not commanding God, but recognizing that it is God's prerogative not to answer some prayers supposedly is commanding God.

"And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day." (1 Sam. 8:18)

"And Saul inquired of God, 'Shall I go down after the Philistines? Will you give them into the hand of Israel?' But he did not answer him that day." (1 Sam. 14:37)

"And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets." (1 Sam. 28:6)

"They looked, but there was none to save; they cried to the LORD, but he did not answer them." (2 Sam. 22:42; Ps. 18:41)

"I cry to you for help and you do not answer me; I stand, and you only look at me." (Job 30:20, Job speaking)

"O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest. (Ps. 22:2, David speaking)

"Then they will cry to the LORD, but he will not answer them; he will hide his face from them at that time, because they have made their deeds evil." (Micah 3:4)

Q.E.D.

So, then are you admitting that God can and does answer prayers requesting to know the truth of something? (As in Moroni's promise.)

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

First things first. Do you admit that there are some prayers that God does not answer?

So, then are you admitting that God can and does answer prayers requesting to know the truth of something? (As in Moroni's promise.)

[ELF1024]

Vance,

First things first. Do you admit that there are some prayers that God does not answer?

I will say that God doesn't answer some prayers in the way we want, or in a way we understand until later on in life. But I do think that God answers all (righteous) prayers in his own time.

I would say that God does not answer prayers that ask for unrighteous things. For instance, if I prayed fervently for the death of (insert person's name here); I would say that God would not answer my prayer no matter how intently I prayed because no matter how hateful and evil the person was, I would be wrong in asking for that in the first place.

[Vance]

Vance,

First things first. Do you admit that there are some prayers that God does not answer?

Let's not play games Bowman. You don't plan on answering my question regardless.

The scriptures you cited clearly show that God prewarned people about the conditions under which HE would not answer their prayers.

Had those people repented and returned to the LORD, He would have answered their prayers.

Now go ahead and crow.

Then slink off and avoid the question.

The point I was getting across is your denial that God answers the prayers of those with sincere hearts and real intent, who exercise faith in Christ, to know the truth. These are the prayers that you deny that God answers. Unless you have changed your tune from the last time we discussed this.

[Rob Bowman]

ELF,

Both Job and David, righteous men, affirmed that God did not answer them when they asked him to deliver them from suffering. They were not suffering for any wrongdoing of their own. I agree with your qualification "in his own time," but this qualification must be taken seriously. Some prayers, of righteous people, asking for good things, God "answers" No.

In any case, the question is whether it is a righteous prayer to ask God for a private revelation in order to know that the Book of Mormon is true. May I suggest that this is at least not self-evidently the case? Perhaps the proposed prayer is unrighteous in some way. This is a legitimate and sincere concern.

Let me offer one observation as to what I find troubling about this. The Moroni challenge as it is usually presented is not, "Read the Book of Mormon and ask God to grant you wisdom to discern whether it is true or not." Rather, the usual instruction is something like this, "Read the Book of Mormon and ask God to give you a testimony that it is true." Such a prayer presupposes that the Book of Mormon is true. That's a problem.

I will say that God doesn't answer some prayers in the way we want, or in a way we understand until later on in life. But I do think that God answers all (righteous) prayers in his own time.

I would say that God does not answer prayers that ask for unrighteous things. For instance, if I prayed fervently for the death of (insert person's name here); I would say that God would not answer my prayer no matter how intently I prayed because no matter how hateful and evil the person was, I would be wrong in asking for that in the first place.

[Rob Bowman]

Vance,

You are the one playing games, not I. My position has not changed. See my reply to ELF for some insight as to what my position actually is.

Let's not play games Bowman. You don't plan on answering my question regardless.

The scriptures you cited clearly show that God prewarned people about the conditions under which HE would not answer their prayers.

Had those people repented and returned to the LORD, He would have answered their prayers.

Now go ahead and crow.

Then slink off and avoid the question.

The point I was getting across is your denial that God answers the prayers of those with sincere hearts and real intent, who exercise faith in Christ, to know the truth. These are the prayers that you deny that God answers. Unless you have changed your tune from the last time we discussed this.

[Vance]

Let me offer one observation as to what I find troubling about this. The Moroni challenge as it is usually presented is not, "Read the Book of Mormon and ask God to grant you wisdom to discern whether it is true or not." Rather, the usual instruction is something like this, "Read the Book of Mormon and ask God to give you a testimony that it is true." Such a prayer presupposes that the Book of Mormon is true. That's a problem.

Since it is true, what other presupposition should it have?

The problem is not with the Book of Mormon, it lies elsewhere.