paulpatter Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Paulputter, those quotes remind me of a verse in the Book of Mormon that I was reading the other night =D.I think the verse speaks that those who are humble... and those who perform the ordinances (works) God wishes them to do, will be the Lord's 'jewels', and will be spared when the time comes... I think it says that perhaps forgiveness is easier for those who do works in the Lord's name?What do you think?Best Wishes,TAO =)I think you're "smack on" right. Thanks for the instructive, enlightening comment.With every good wish, paul.
volgadon Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 But yet for three straight years the priesthood manual is about the prophets and NOT about Jesus Christ.Would you be offended if the manual was about the Bible? If not, then why not?
volgadon Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 If this is true for you then how often do you actaully teach/talk about Christ in Church? I would say rarely. It is the current Prophet, and the apostles, and the founderJoseph Smith and the constantant reminder that you are not perfect that is YOUR daily bread in the LDS church. Be honest with yourself and admit Christ and the Mormon church are mutually exclusive.Unfortunately, due to my work schedule I only made it to sacrament meeting last Sunday. Perhaps someone managed to sneak in hundreds of mentions of Joseph smith in the two minutes that I dozed off for. Otherwise Joseph Smith wasn't mentioned even once. Didn't think to count how many times Christ was, too many to count.As for reminders that we aren't perfect, isn't a reminder that we are all sinners YOUR daily bread as evangelical protestants?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Good. Keeping silent. I'm glad you're in touch with your (Mormon) feminine side. Ha, apparently Paul thought that women should keep their mouths shut too.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 If this is true for you then how often do you actaully teach/talk about Christ in Church? I would say rarely. It is the current Prophet, and the apostles, and the founderJoseph Smith and the constantant reminder that you are not perfect that is YOUR daily bread in the LDS church. Be honest with yourself and admit Christ and the Mormon church are mutually exclusive.The church is false right?Then why do you need to lie about how false the church his with this hog wash?IOW you are not doing your belief system any justice by distorting the facts.You be honest with your self and realise that we preach of Christ probably more than you do in your church. After all we have 3 hours on Sunday dedicated to Him opposed to your 45mins to an hour.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 But yet for three straight years the priesthood manual is about the prophets and NOT about Jesus Christ. How about you count the times Jesus Christ is mentioned in church and how many times Joseph Smith is mentioned. As you know the data would be shocking.Lol, Just this last week JS was not even mentioned. Christ however was mentioned at a minimum of 20 times.I know that data is shocking.Tango, stop presenting the dumbest arguments on the planet. I hope you will take my advice because you are only looking like a complete and total fool right now.
stemelbow Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Actually it's not hypocritical, and your post helps make a good - if unintended - point. The difference is in how it is we believe we are saved. If we believe we are saved solely by way of our faith in Christ, and by no other means, it would be difficult to call us "man-centered" in our faith. I guess we could still be considered man-centered in that we might hold that belief in order to be saved, but, our actions here on earth, (works), and none of them, would have any impact at all on our salvation and therefore nothing we might do or not do would be for us, it would all be for Him.I feel you've skirted your own point in this. What does works have to do with this? I thought your point was about reward, in that we are part of religion because of the ultimate benefit. To you LDS practicing their religion is somehow man-centered because of the reward, but practicing a religion that proclaims faith only because of the reward, is not. The interesting thing is that I have been told here, many times, that the LDS faithful do not believe they are saved by their works. I have been told that they are saved solely by their faith in Christ, just like any other Christian, but they gain exaltation by their works. So, it would appear that in terms of salvation the LDS church is not indeed man-centered. However, their works would have to be considered man-centered, wouldn't they, given they serve no purpose other than to gain someone exaltation to godhood? I do understand that some here have said that their exaltation brings glory to God, and in that respect, they're right, their works would be fairly considered God-centered, just not solely God-centered.Btw, my question was in no way a complaint. And even if you didn't really mean it, I love you too. Respectfully,BalzerNo probs...I don't have to call it a complaint even if it seems like one to me. No semantics games here.Anyway, it has equally been reiterated to me from evans that works will receive one rewards after salvation by faith--or however best to word it (now I'm going to be a little bit insecure about the words I choose talking to you for some reason). So again it would be hypocritical to say one is man-centered and the other is not, merely because the one promises greater blessings than the other.love,stem
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 I have heard the LDS church referred to by non-members as being centered on man, as opposed, I suppose, to being centered on Christ. Given that Mormons believe that they will one day become gods - and spend their lives endeavoring to achieve that goal - is it then fair to say that the LDS church is indeed centered on man? If this is not fair, why not?Respectfully,BalzerLet
semlogo Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 I have heard the LDS church referred to by non-members as being centered on man, as opposed, I suppose, to being centered on Christ. Given that Mormons believe that they will one day become gods - and spend their lives endeavoring to achieve that goal - is it then fair to say that the LDS church is indeed centered on man? If this is not fair, why not?Respectfully,BalzerLike all Christian sects, we're focused both on God and on ourselves.
ElderDarionBevan Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 without women we wouldn't have church, literally there would be no men because none would ever be born. Men and Women have different roles in the church and in the work of the lord to build his kingdom
clairc829 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 But yet for three straight years the priesthood manual is about the prophets and NOT about Jesus Christ. How about you count the times Jesus Christ is mentioned in church and how many times Joseph Smith is mentioned. As you know the data would be shocking.In response to this type of statement last year I went through the Ensign magazines Conference issue. The number of times the Savior was mentioned was about 10 times as often as Joseph Smith and all other Prophets combined.Yes the lesson manual were about the teachings of the Prophets, and surprise the main message was and is to follow Jesus Christ's example.
paulpatter Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Shocking degree of ignorance? Isn't that just a touch arrogant? You fail to reference my mitigating statement about not intending to be harsh or uncharitable. But if you (and others) were offended, I'm pleased to apologize.: I respect the fact that you may be a faithful member of your church, but you should reconsider painting with such a broad brush. Many non-LDS are not ignorant of the beliefs and doctrines of your church, and many - most I'm guessing - are also not "anti" Mormon. For you to characterize those non-LDS people who simply do not believe that many of the "paths to godhood" you list are at all relevant to their salvation does not make them shockingly ignorant. It simply makes them non-LDS. Excuse me, but it isn't quite that simple. The scriptures I listed were from the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. If faith-based Christians do not understand that Christ is the centerpiece, not man as you seem to suppose with reference to LDS, then I'm afraid they are--what adjective do you prefer--how about "uninformed"? Respectfully, Balzer
Balzer Posted January 25, 2011 Author Posted January 25, 2011 After all we have 3 hours on Sunday dedicated to Him opposed to your 45mins to an hour.What made you think this was an appropriate comment? My church has three sermons on Sunday, with lunch together between 2 & 3, and runs a total of approximately 5 hours. Does this fact makes us any better at being Christian than you? I don't see how. Besides from what I'm told you folks wrassle your kids thru one hour and sleep thru another. Of course, my dad could most certainly beat up you dad tho. Respectfully,Balzer
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 What made you think this was an appropriate comment? BalzerDid you read Tango's comments? Something tells me you did and you thought there was nothing wrong with what he said (of course I am open and will take your word if you say otherwise). Other than the fact that every word he said was false.I can provide kneejerk comments too.For the record I think you undersood my comments just as I inteded them. "My dad can beat up your dad".
Vance Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I think maybe I have misunderstood your question? You asked how will I prove to God that I am a believer? I don't know how I might do that, but, I don't think I'll ever have to. I think believers are going to be in a wholly different situation than non-believers, although I do understand that believers are to be judged by their works.Romans 8:1, says, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." On the basis of that one verse alone (and others) we can conclude that while believers will be judged after death we will not be condemned and consigned to hell. As Jesus tells us in John 6:40, "Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." That is a clear statement of justification at the end for all who look to Christ in faith.Respectfully,BalzerStill begging the question. How do you show that you are among "those who are in Christ Jesus."?How do you show that you "look to the Son and believe in Him"?How can you believe IN Him without obeying Him?
ELF1024 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I have heard the LDS church referred to by non-members as being centered on man, as opposed, I suppose, to being centered on Christ. Given that Mormons believe that they will one day become gods - and spend their lives endeavoring to achieve that goal - is it then fair to say that the LDS church is indeed centered on man? If this is not fair, why not?Respectfully,BalzerTo be more correct, Mormons believe that everyone is a literal child of God, including non-members (like you) and everyone that has ever walked the face of the Earth. We believe all of humanity are Gods in Potential. However, not everyone, including those in the Church, will live up to their potential.Truely none of us can live up to our full potential without Christ.Becoming a God is not something I give much thought. It isn't something I spend any time thinking about. I'm more concerned about being the best Father/Husband/Son I can be. Christ was our perfect example of how to live. If I focus on trying to live a Christ-Like life, then everything else will fall into place.If by saying that we are man focused in that we are trying to "Perfect The Saints" by living a Christ-Like life then I would agree. However, if you are saying we are man focused because we do not worship the Savior, then you are dead wrong.What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason,how infinite in faculties, in form and moving,how express and admirable in action, how like an angel in apprehension,how like a god!
ELF1024 Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 I think maybe I have misunderstood your question? You asked how will I prove to God that I am a believer? I don't know how I might do that, but, I don't think I'll ever have to. I think believers are going to be in a wholly different situation than non-believers, although I do understand that believers are to be judged by their works.Romans 8:1, says, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." On the basis of that one verse alone (and others) we can conclude that while believers will be judged after death we will not be condemned and consigned to hell. As Jesus tells us in John 6:40, "Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." That is a clear statement of justification at the end for all who look to Christ in faith.Respectfully,BalzerIt's cute that you think you have the monopoly on being called a believer.
Balzer Posted January 29, 2011 Author Posted January 29, 2011 I feel you've skirted your own point in this. What does works have to do with this? I thought your point was about reward, in that we are part of religion because of the ultimate benefit. To you LDS practicing their religion is somehow man-centered because of the reward, but practicing a religion that proclaims faith only because of the reward, is not. No probs...I don't have to call it a complaint even if it seems like one to me. No semantics games here.Anyway, it has equally been reiterated to me from evans that works will receive one rewards after salvation by faith--or however best to word it (now I'm going to be a little bit insecure about the words I choose talking to you for some reason). So again it would be hypocritical to say one is man-centered and the other is not, merely because the one promises greater blessings than the other.love,stemTo be fair, I'd have to admit that my thought process on this thread has definitely evolved. Where in the OP I asked whether, in light of the belief in exaltation, Mormons were properly considered man-centered, that question/issue has evolved to focus (for me) on the issue of works, and why the LDS perform them. I agree (and have agreed) that all Christians are in it for the reward of salvation, and to that extent we are all to some degree man-centered in our faith because we have that faith in order to gain that salvation. I get that. Yet, if indeed Mormons perform good works not for salvation but for exaltation, thats something different isn't it?Respectfully,Balzer
Balzer Posted January 29, 2011 Author Posted January 29, 2011 You fail to reference my mitigating statement about not intending to be harsh or uncharitable. But if you (and others) were offended, I'm pleased to apologize.Excuse me, but it isn't quite that simple. The scriptures I listed were from the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. If faith-based Christians do not understand that Christ is the centerpiece, not man as you seem to suppose with reference to LDS, then I'm afraid they are--what adjective do you prefer--how about "uninformed"?You can't say they are uninformed if they are made aware of the scripture you rely on and simply don't interpret it to mean what the LDS church says it means. (or the Catholics for that matter) Respectfully,Balzer
Balzer Posted January 29, 2011 Author Posted January 29, 2011 Did you read Tango's comments? Something tells me you did and you thought there was nothing wrong with what he said (of course I am open and will take your word if you say otherwise). Other than the fact that every word he said was false.I can provide kneejerk comments too.For the record I think you undersood my comments just as I inteded them. "My dad can beat up your dad".You mean where they alleged that you don't say Jesus enough in church? Yeah I saw that. Thought it was silly. And you're probably right anyway. My dad is really old. Respectfully,Balzer
Balzer Posted January 29, 2011 Author Posted January 29, 2011 Still begging the question. How do you show that you are among "those who are in Christ Jesus."?How do you show that you "look to the Son and believe in Him"?How can you believe IN Him without obeying Him?If believers are to go to one place, and non-believers to another, won't He already know who's who?And, I don't think you can believe in Him without obeying Him. How does that impact your question as to how I might prove to Jesus that I'm a believer?Respectfully,Balzer
Balzer Posted January 29, 2011 Author Posted January 29, 2011 It is a matter of the Carrot or the Stick. In most Churches, you are told that if you don't live a Christ Like Life, you are doomed to hellfire and damnation. I would call that the stick. It would be the equivlent of beating the child with a rod. The LDS Church says, if you live a Christ like Life, you may be able to become more like God, indeed you may be able to become a God yourself someday. That is a huge reward! What a carrot!In any case, even if you don't become a God, what is the harm in doing more than is required? Why not try harder than you need to live a Christ like life? If all you have to do is believe upon Christ, then I'd think we have that part covered.I don't get this at all. The LDS church says that if I don't join their church I will never meet Christ or get to live in the highest degree of Heaven. That's a heck of a big stick. Also the equivalent of beating a child with a rod. The LDS church says all other Christian churches are an abomination. That's a pretty big stick too. Btw, what religion teaches that if you don't "live a Christ like life you'll burn in hell? I thought hell was reserved for the non-believers?Respectfully,Balzer
Balzer Posted January 29, 2011 Author Posted January 29, 2011 It's cute that you think you have the monopoly on being called a believer.How did I do that? (sincere question)Thanks for calling me cute tho.Respectfully,Balzer
TAO Posted January 29, 2011 Posted January 29, 2011 I don't get this at all. The LDS church says that if I don't join their church I will never meet Christ or get to live in the highest degree of Heaven.Na, we say if you aren't in the celestial, you won't meet Heavenly Father - different than Christ. Also, people not of our church can get to the celestial, so yah... the statement is a bit of an exaggeration =P.That's a heck of a big stick. Also the equivalent of beating a child with a rod. The LDS church says all other Christian churches are an abomination.Nah, we say that their creeds are an abomination. Not them =P. You don't disagree with people - you disagree with their beliefs. Disagreeing with people can cause big problems.That's a pretty big stick too. Btw, what religion teaches that if you don't "live a Christ like life you'll burn in hell?Ours. The thing is, for us, hell isn't permanent. But it is insanely painful - and there isn't an arbitrary line for it either - it's for what sins you don't repent of.I thought hell was reserved for the non-believers?Nope....(wait, were you just doing this entire thing in humor 0.o?).
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