Vance Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 And, I don't think you can believe in Him without obeying Him. That is the point I wanted you to get to.If you believe in Him, then you obey Him. Obeying Him is therefore evidence of belief in Him.Also, you said,Fundamentally, if LDS don't really believe in hell as other Christians do, then wouldn't it be fair to say that LDS can do "whatever they want" once members, even if they're fallen members?It is obvious that you are misinformed.D&C 19:15 Therefore I command you to repent
paulpatter Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 quote name='Balzer' timestamp='1296336760' post='1208968812']: You can't say they are uninformed if they are made aware of the scripture you rely on and simply don't interpret it to mean what the LDS church says it means. (or the Catholics for that matter) It's a struggle, Balzer (at least for me) to understand where you're coming from. The title page of the Book of Mormon reads, "The BOOK OF MORMON - Another Testament of Jesus Christ." The first article of the 13 Articles of Faith that every LDS child must learn before graduating from Primary reads, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Every ordinance--from baptism to dedicating graves--is done in the name of Jesus Christ. (The wording for several key ordinances is found in Section 20 of the Doctrine & Covenants). Apparently, though, you feel the LDS Church is man-centered because of its doctrine that exalted Saints can become gods. (I do have that right, don't I?) Your doctrine makes no reference to members achieving godhood (as I understand it), but it does emphasize salvation and life eternal for "man" (humankind). One could reasonably argue, then, that your belief system is "man" centered. Ask youself, "Why did Christ come?" Answer: to redeem "man" from the Fall through the atonement. Consequently, all Christian religions are "man" centered. To suppose otherwise is to deny the redemptive power of the atonement and the whole rationale for the Savior's mortal ministry.
Calm Posted January 30, 2011 Posted January 30, 2011 Yet, if indeed Mormons perform good works not for salvation but for exaltation, thats something different isn't it?The good works we do will count toward exaltation and all that implies about how God blesses us.However (and this is a big however imo) in order to receive exaltation fully we have to have evolved past doing right for a reward's sake to doing right because it is right and because we love God. IOW our good works will only 'count' toward exaltation if we've stopped the 'counting' ourselves and instead let that be solely God's concern, our only concern being to attempt to do his will because of our love for him.
Balzer Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 That is the point I wanted you to get to.If you believe in Him, then you obey Him. Obeying Him is therefore evidence of belief in Him.Also, you said,It is obvious that you are misinformed.D&C 19:15 Therefore I command you to repent
Balzer Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 quote name='Balzer' timestamp='1296336760' post='1208968812']It's a struggle, Balzer (at least for me) to understand where you're coming from. The title page of the Book of Mormon reads, "The BOOK OF MORMON - Another Testament of Jesus Christ." The first article of the 13 Articles of Faith that every LDS child must learn before graduating from Primary reads, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Every ordinance--from baptism to dedicating graves--is done in the name of Jesus Christ. (The wording for several key ordinances is found in Section 20 of the Doctrine & Covenants). Apparently, though, you feel the LDS Church is man-centered because of its doctrine that exalted Saints can become gods. (I do have that right, don't I?) Your doctrine makes no reference to members achieving godhood (as I understand it), but it does emphasize salvation and life eternal for "man" (humankind). One could reasonably argue, then, that your belief system is "man" centered. Ask youself, "Why did Christ come?" Answer: to redeem "man" from the Fall through the atonement. Consequently, all Christian religions are "man" centered. To suppose otherwise is to deny the redemptive power of the atonement and the whole rationale for the Savior's mortal ministry.I don't disagree with any of this. As I said in another post, my thinking on this has sort of evolved in that it would appear that for LDS their works are man-centered given they are performed for purposes of exaltation.Respectfully,Balzer
Balzer Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 The good works we do will count toward exaltation and all that implies about how God blesses us.However (and this is a big however imo) in order to receive exaltation fully we have to have evolved past doing right for a reward's sake to doing right because it is right and because we love God. IOW our good works will only 'count' toward exaltation if we've stopped the 'counting' ourselves and instead let that be solely God's concern, our only concern being to attempt to do his will because of our love for him.Hey this is a good answer, and would, if true, certainly resolve the question of whether or not LDS works are man-centered. If those works were solely in order to please God, and exaltation was merely an unintended result, then they would certainly not be man-centered. And, if so, works for the LDS would be no different than works for any other Christian.Respectfully,Balzer
TAO Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Uninformed is probably more accurate. Still trying to understand the LDS concept of hell.Ok. I will try to explain it to you. Because you are right, it is complex.First off... we believe 'hell' isn't permanent. As written in D&C...D&C 196 Nevertheless, it is anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written bendless ctorment.7 Again, it is written aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name
TAO Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Hey this is a good answer, and would, if true, certainly resolve the question of whether or not LDS works are man-centered. If those works were solely in order to please God, and exaltation was merely an unintended result, then they would certainly not be man-centered. And, if so, works for the LDS would be no different than works for any other Christian.Respectfully,BalzerBalzer, if Christians have faith so they can be saved, isn't that man-centered as well? Having faith, after all, is in a way, a work.I'd say God is man-centered. Just not natural-man centered. Godly-man centered.
LeSellers Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Still trying to understand the LDS concept of hell.The issue is that there are several meanings to the word "hell" in LDS thought (and in the Bible, btw). First is the usage that corresponds to the Hebrew sheol and the Greek Hades. It is death, the tomb or grave. We use it in this way to describe what Peter meant when he spoke of Christ's going to preach to the spirits in prison. There is no hint of any sort of punishment in this usage, it's just the common fate of all mankind: we will die, and then we go to hell until the resurrection. The second usage is what Jesus and, e.g., John, meant when they spoke of the lake of fire and brimstone wherein the wicked are punished. Please note that this punishment is not said to be of endless duration for any one person, but, rather that there will always be such a place so that all of the creations of God can be punished if they do not accept, through repentance, the atonement of Christ. Third, we have a usage that speaks of those who reject Christ entirely, who, having received a clear and unmistakable witness through the Holy Ghost that He is the Son of God, their Redeemer, and their Savior, outright crucify Him anew and defy God, loving Satan more than Him. These go to Outer Darkness where their suffering never ends, to a kingdom that is not of glory, but of doom. They prefer to "rule in hell rather than serve in Heaven."We also use the term figuratively, as do most people, when we speak of going through hell and similar phrases. For the most part, this will not be a problem for a listener. I mention it because this usage shows how context is key to understanding the meaning of any word. A practiced ear can distinguish among these connotations of the word, but it takes time and a willingness to recognize they are more like homonyms than synonyms: they sound the same, but they have very different meanings. Lehi
Vance Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Uninformed is probably more accurate. Still trying to understand the LDS concept of hell.Respectfully,BalzerSorry, my mistake.
Brenda Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I have heard the LDS church referred to by non-members as being centered on man, as opposed, I suppose, to being centered on Christ. Given that Mormons believe that they will one day become gods - and spend their lives endeavoring to achieve that goal - is it then fair to say that the LDS church is indeed centered on man? If this is not fair, why not?Respectfully,BalzerDo the men get to have a Homemaking-Enrichment-mid-week-monthly-meeting (whatever it's called now) when the spouses are expected to stay home with the kids, like the RS does? No. Enough said.
ELF1024 Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 I don't get this at all. The LDS church says that if I don't join their church I will never meet Christ or get to live in the highest degree of Heaven. That's a heck of a big stick. But you don't have to join in this life.Also the equivalent of beating a child with a rod. The LDS church says all other Christian churches are an abomination. That's a pretty big stick too. Btw, what religion teaches that if you don't "live a Christ like life you'll burn in hell? I thought hell was reserved for the non-believers?Respectfully,BalzerNo, not all non-LDS will go to hell. We believe there is good and some truth in all religions. (By the way it was the creeds that were called an aboination, not the religions themselves) We also believe that everyone will have a chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not all Christian churches believe that; many believe that if you don't accept Christ in life, then you damned to hell.Just because you aren't a "card carrying true believer" doesn't mean that you won't go to "heaven". As a matter of fact, you will have to do some serious work to go anywhere but "one of the three degrees of Glory".I would say that any religion that doesn't have Christ as it's main example of good behavior. Or doesn't accept the divinity of Christ.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 The LDS church says all other Christian churches are an abomination. Respectfully,BalzerBalzer, you have brought this up before and have been corrected at least on other time. You full well know that the acount given by JS, nowhere says that all other Christian Churches are an abomination. I suggest you don't repeat this falsehood again.
paulpatter Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 'Balzer' timestamp='1296443625' post='1208969143 I don't disagree with any of this. As I said in another post, my thinking on this has sort of evolved in that it would appear that for LDS their works are man-centered given they are performed for purposes of exaltation. For LDS, "exaltation" refers to the highest form of salvation; i.e., the celestial kingdom. Hence, as Elder McConkie wrote in Mormon Doctrine (p. 257), ". . .in its most pure and perfect definition [salvation] is a synonym for exaltation." What that means is that because non-LDS Christians seek salvation, their belief system is also "man centered." I assume you will not deny that Christians of all varieties seek salvation.
Calm Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Hey this is a good answer, and would, if true, certainly resolve the question of whether or not LDS works are man-centered. If those works were solely in order to please God, and exaltation was merely an unintended result, then they would certainly not be man-centered. And, if so, works for the LDS would be no different than works for any other Christian.Respectfully,BalzerI see it as the understanding and motivation that we evolve to as we grow in faith and understanding of what God wants of and for us. As children in the spirit, we might first do something for fear out of punishment or for rewards, but as we mature spiritually---just as we do socially and emotionally--our motivations mature as well and eventually if we continue in growth we will reach a position based on love and awe and gratitude for all that the Lord is and has done for us.As we grow, we will emphasize different aspects of God's teachings. He has provided us with a range of instructions in order to allow us to grow "line upon line, precept upon precept" both in understanding and in action. If teachings solely focused on doing right for the right reason or for the love of God, then those who didn't care or didn't comprehend God's love yet and thus did not return it wouldn't be motivated to do that which is good....and that would prevent them from engaging in the very behaviour that would help them come to care about doing right or learning about God's love.Like a child that has to be persuaded to clean his room first out of fear of losing some privilege or out of a desire to get a reward can eventually come to appreciate the difference between living in chaos and living in order and cleanliness and ends up cleaning because s/he desires order and peace and cleanliness as well as recognizing the pleasure and peace it brings to the family (especially parents), we grow spiritually by first doing good acts out of fear or for selfish reward, then overtime we come to realize how much better life is for us and others is we act righteously and as we grow even more it expands our understanding and ability to interact with God thus providing us with opportunities to not only receive his love, but comprehend that love (at least in part) which leads us to return that love, thus molding our actions into ones based on love and awe and worship. This does take time and opportunities, however; I think the Church and mortality has been structured the way it has in order to provide the variety of experiences at different levels of progression to promote this growth as effectively as possible (given man's agency).
selah777 Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 God will never cease to be God??? That's contradictory to what the LDS teachings. Does the LDS not teach that God was once a man like us and when he died he became God?? The Bible says He is God as he was and always will be. No one will EVER be equal to Him! It's blastphemous to think you will be little gods like him. its very simple.. The fathers Glory is our salvation and exhaltation. God will never cease to be God.
selah777 Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 But you don't have to join in this life.No, not all non-LDS will go to hell. We believe there is good and some truth in all religions. (By the way it was the creeds that were called an aboination, not the religions themselves) We also believe that everyone will have a chance to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not all Christian churches believe that; many believe that if you don't accept Christ in life, then you damned to hell.Just because you aren't a "card carrying true believer" doesn't mean that you won't go to "heaven". As a matter of fact, you will have to do some serious work to go anywhere but "one of the three degrees of Glory".I would say that any religion that doesn't have Christ as it's main example of good behavior. Or doesn't accept the divinity of Christ.You don't have to join in this life but at some point you have to join? Your church is so rediculously flawed that it 's astonishing to me that people could actually believe these teachings. You have another doctrine which the Bible forbids. You become little gods on your own planet with multiple wives and families (definitely a man who came up with that one, must have been the same guy who told the muslims they will get 72 virgins...), Jesus and Satan are brothers because God has many wives and one of them is the mother of Jesus and Satan. Your wives can't get into heaven without the blessings of their husbands (the Bible says we're responsible for our OWN salvations), you guys actually believe you are the remnant which are actually the Jews. The list goes on and on. I wonder, do the Mormons even read the Bible????? Or do they just not care about the multitudes of contradictions in the BOM?
selah777 Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 You don't have to join in this life but at some point you have to join? Your church is so rediculously flawed that it 's astonishing to me that people could actually believe these teachings. You have another doctrine which the Bible forbids. You become little gods on your own planet with multiple wives and families (definitely a man who came up with that one, must have been the same guy who told the muslims they will get 72 virgins...), Jesus and Satan are brothers because God has many wives and one of them is the mother of Jesus and Satan. Your wives can't get into heaven without the blessings of their husbands (the Bible says we're responsible for our OWN salvations), you guys actually believe you are the remnant which are actually the Jews. The list goes on and on. I wonder, do the Mormons even read the Bible????? Or do they just not care about the multitudes of contradictions in the BOM?Let's not forget about all the God forbidden rituals in this church. MORMON UNDERWEAR???? A covenant between God and man to separate you from the secular world? COME ON!!! Do you have some rosary beads to go with those undies? I'm sure 10 hail Mary's and 8 St. Peters and a lit candle will also protect you from the world. Just ask the Catholics.
selah777 Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 Do the men get to have a Homemaking-Enrichment-mid-week-monthly-meeting (whatever it's called now) when the spouses are expected to stay home with the kids, like the RS does? No. Enough said.I have a question about this. So Mormons become little gods on their own planets with multiple wives and families right? Is that just the men? What happens to the women? Do they become little gods too? Are they little god wives who have to have many children....again? But this time they have to share their husband with other wives? That sounds like a demotion to me. I would be miserable if I were a Mormon woman.
Hestia Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 Since Selah has nothing to offer but insults she is banned from this thread. She can take her bitterness elsewhere and if she wants to continue to post here she will need to review the board guidelines.
todd520 Posted February 5, 2011 Posted February 5, 2011 I have a question about this. So Mormons become little gods on their own planets with multiple wives and families right? Is that just the men? What happens to the women? Do they become little gods too? Are they little god wives who have to have many children....again? But this time they have to share their husband with other wives? That sounds like a demotion to me. I would be miserable if I were a Mormon woman.I'm always shocked at the ignorance of most Christians,They run around laughing at LDS without acknowleding the belief that Man might become God is core Christian doctirneIt started with the ECF and still remains official doctrine.
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