Is LDS church "man-centered?"

[Balzer]

Latter-day Saints who are genuinely dedicated to becoming gods center their lives not on man, but on Jesus Christ, their exemplar. The path to godhood runs through Him and no one else. Every ordinance performed in the LDS Church employs the name of Jesus Christ--from child blessings. . .to baptism. . .to bestowal of the priesthoods and ordaining to offices therein. . .to administering to the sick. . . to opening and closing meetings with prayer. . .to temple ordinances, including marriage. . .to funeral eulogies. . .to family home evening and family prayer. . .to family prayer before a casket is closed. . .to beginning a meal and ending a fast. . .to partaking of the sacrament. . .to setting members apart for callings. . .to ward house and temple dedications. . .to patriarchal blessings.

I have probably overlooked a few, but for anyone to suggest that the LDS Church is centered on man is to exhibit a shocking degree of ignorance. I don't mean to be harsh or uncharitable--just making a straightforward statement of fact.

Shocking degree of ignorance? Isn't that just a touch arrogant? I respect the fact that you may be a faithful member of your church, but you should reconsider painting with such a broad brush. Many non-LDS are not ignorant of the beliefs and doctrines of your church, and many - most I'm guessing - are also not "anti" Mormon. For you to characterize those non-LDS people who simply do not believe that many of the "paths to godhood" you list are at all relevant to their salvation does not make them shockingly ignorant. It simply makes them non-LDS.

Respectfully,

Balzer

[Tango]

Latter-day Saints who are genuinely dedicated to becoming gods center their lives not on man, but on Jesus Christ, their exemplar. The path to godhood runs through Him and no one else. Every ordinance performed in the LDS Church employs the name of Jesus Christ--from child blessings. . .to baptism. . .to bestowal of the priesthoods and ordaining to offices therein. . .to administering to the sick. . . to opening and closing meetings with prayer. . .to temple ordinances, including marriage. . .to funeral eulogies. . .to family home evening and family prayer. . .to family prayer before a casket is closed. . .to beginning a meal and ending a fast. . .to partaking of the sacrament. . .to setting members apart for callings. . .to ward house and temple dedications. . .to patriarchal blessings.

I have probably overlooked a few, but for anyone to suggest that the LDS Church is centered on man is to exhibit a shocking degree of ignorance. I don't mean to be harsh or uncharitable--just making a straightforward statement of fact.

But yet for three straight years the priesthood manual is about the prophets and NOT about Jesus Christ. How about you count the times Jesus Christ is mentioned in church and how many times Joseph Smith is mentioned. As you know the data would be shocking.

[Balzer]

Fighting... the temptation... to feed... the troll...

Regards,

Pahoran

No, please, I would really like to know more about this. Feed the troll!

Respectfully,

Balzer

[Balzer]

So, when standing before the Judgment bar of Christ, what evidence do you plan to present to support your claim to having faith?

Does a simple verbal statement claiming such suffice?

Geez, I should think He will know, won't He? And I certainly won't be trotting out any of my works, that's for sure. How might you answer your question?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[Pahoran]

If this is true for you then how often do you actaully teach/talk about Christ in Church? I would say rarely. It is the current Prophet, and the apostles, and the founderJoseph Smith and the constantant reminder that you are not perfect that is YOUR daily bread in the LDS church. Be honest with yourself and admit Christ and the Mormon church are mutually exclusive.

How about you be honest with us and admit that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about?

Because if you insist on your assertion that "Christ and the Mormon church are mutually exclusive," then I would have to admit that this is representative of a class of statements that are made by the nefarious to deceive the gullible.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

No, please, I would really like to know more about this. Feed the troll!

Respectfully,

Balzer

There's nothing more to know. The troll posted an intentionally provocative falsehood in order to get a rise out of someone.

Incidentally Balzer, I think your question is asked and answered. No faithful Latter-day Saint thinks the Church is "man-centered;" the verdict is unanimous.

Regards,

Pahoran

[John Larsen]

There's nothing more to know. The troll posted an intentionally provocative falsehood in order to get a rise out of someone.

Incidentally Balzer, I think your question is asked and answered. No faithful Latter-day Saint thinks the Church is "man-centered;" the verdict is unanimous.

Regards,

Pahoran

None? A quick search of the internet will show all kinds of LDS people, both male and female that have problems with this.

Or is this another "no true Scottsman" argument?

[TAO]

If this is true for you then how often do you actaully teach/talk about Christ in Church?

Every week. Probably mentioned about 40 to 50 times each week, or more.

It is the current Prophet, and the apostles, and the founder Joseph Smith and the constantant reminder that you are not perfect that is YOUR daily bread in the LDS church.

The prophet gets a mention about once or twice a week.

Joseph Smith gets mentioned about once every two weeks.

You are not perfect get's mentioned about twice every week, because none of us are perfect =P. Christ it the perfect one, we should try and emulate him.

Be honest with yourself and admit Christ and the Mormon church are mutually exclusive.

I'd say they are mutually inclusive actually. I can't think about the Church without thinking about Father and his son, Jesus Christ. And thinking about them brings upon a very wonderful feeling (unless I've done something wrong, in which case it brings upon a repentant feeling, and then a good but humble feeling after I repent). To think of Church is to think of God... and to think of God is freeing, and exultant. It is wonderful =).

[paulpatter]

. . . . The interesting thing is that I have been told here, many times, that the LDS faithful do not believe they are saved by their works. I have been told that they are saved solely by their faith in Christ, just like any other Christian, but they gain exaltation by their works. So, it would appear that in terms of salvation the LDS church is not indeed man-centered. However, their works would have to be considered man-centered, wouldn't they, given they serve no purpose other than to gain someone exaltation to godhood? I do understand that some here have said that their exaltation brings glory to God, and in that respect, they're right, their works would be fairly considered God-centered, just not solely God-centered.

Many LDS are familiar with Stephen E. Robinson's classic book Believing Christ. Contrary to what you have been told, LDS believe that there must be a balance between grace and works, thus Dr. Robinson [bYU professor] writes: "For centuries theologians have argued pointlessly over whether individuals are saved by faith or saved by works. A pox on both their houses, for neither by faith alone. . .nor by works alone are we saved. Salvation comes through a covenant relationship in which both faith and works play their parts. To insist that salvation comes by works alone, that we can earn it ourselves without needing the grace of God, insults the mercy of God and mocks the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in our behalf. On the other hand, to insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer insults the justice of God and makes Christ the minister of sin" (pp. 69-70, Deseret Book, 1992).

[Balzer]

There's nothing more to know. The troll posted an intentionally provocative falsehood in order to get a rise out of someone.

Incidentally Balzer, I think your question is asked and answered. No faithful Latter-day Saint thinks the Church is "man-centered;" the verdict is unanimous.

Regards,

Pahoran

Actually I was hoping to learn more about what happens to women in Heaven, but I guess thats best asked in a separate thread. As to whether the question has been answered, you're right, no LDS thinks the church is man-centered. I'm just not sure their 100% right about that. (no, I'm not trying to tell you what you believe, I'm trying to objectively determine whether that belief is man-centered or God-centered) Can you please read my response to Stem and give me your thoughts?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[TAO]

But yet for three straight years the priesthood manual is about the prophets and NOT about Jesus Christ.

Dunno about the priesthood manual, but I opened up my 'For Strength of Youth'. The word 'prophet' was either mentioned once of twice. God/Father/Christ was mentioned about 200 times. Gordon B. Hinckley was mentioned three times - once it was his quote, and once each in 'The Living Christ' and 'Family: A Proclamation to the World', each of these three times being his signature. Church was mentioned about 20 times, but still doesn't even come close to how much God is mentioned.

How about you count the times Jesus Christ is mentioned in church and how many times Joseph Smith is mentioned. As you know the data would be shocking.

As said, I already know the data. Jesus Christ comes up 40 to 50 times a week. Joseph Smith once every other week. That's a 100 X rate of mentioning Christ as compared to Joseph. I suppose it should be greater, but I'd say it's very good, considering I didn't input when they mentioned 'God the Father'.

Tell you what... why don't you come to the next few LDS church meetings on Sundays, and you can see for yourself =).

[Balzer]

Many LDS are familiar with Stephen E. Robinson's classic book Believing Christ. Contrary to what you have been told, LDS believe that there must be a balance between grace and works, thus Dr. Robinson [bYU professor] writes: "For centuries theologians have argued pointlessly over whether individuals are saved by faith or saved by works. A pox on both their houses, for neither by faith alone. . .nor by works alone are we saved. Salvation comes through a covenant relationship in which both faith and works play their parts. To insist that salvation comes by works alone, that we can earn it ourselves without needing the grace of God, insults the mercy of God and mocks the sacrifice of Jesus Christ in our behalf. On the other hand, to insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer insults the justice of God and makes Christ the minister of sin" (pp. 69-70, Deseret Book, 1992).

It is true that I have been given many many different answers to this question, but the resounding winner, here anyway, has been that the LDS believe they are saved by faith, and gain exaltaion by works. Also, I have seen the above quote before and never understood from where they got that "to insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer insults the justice of God and makes Christ the minister of sin." Would you happen to know where in the Bible or the Book of Mormon this is explained or supported?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[paulpatter]

But yet for three straight years the priesthood manual is about the prophets and NOT about Jesus Christ. How about you count the times Jesus Christ is mentioned in church and how many times Joseph Smith is mentioned. As you know the data would be shocking.

And what are the prophets about? Whom do they quote? Whom do they follow? From whom do they receive inspiration? Whom do they admonish members of the Church to follow? Who is their exemplar? What is the name of the church to which they give their lives in service?

As for Joseph Smith being mentioned more times than Jesus Christ, you err (sorry). In my previous post, I listed the ordinances/procedures in which Jesus Christ is prominently addressed. Please name for me even one on that list in which Joseph Smith is mentioned. The ordinances of the Church are done under the authority of Jesus Christ. Period.

[Vance]

Although I can't begin to understand what it means to be a god, I can't agree that non-LDS think it means what you say they think it means. For me it has always only meant that you might be a god who has the power of creation just exactly like God does. I never even considered that you, as a god, might do anything wrong with your godhood, or that you might have anything but good motives.

Respectfully,

Balzer

You are a rare gem.

[Vance]

Geez, I should think He will know, won't He?

That doesn't mean He won't ask you to provide evidence.

And I certainly won't be trotting out any of my works, that's for sure. How might you answer your question?

And if He declares you unfaithful when you are convinced and thus claim that you are faithful, what evidence could you provide to support your claim?

[Balzer]

That doesn't mean He won't ask you to provide evidence.

And if He declares you unfaithful when you are convinced and thus claim that you are faithful, what evidence could you provide to support your claim?

I have no idea. I can only trust that He will know my heart. You?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[Balzer]

And what are the prophets about? Whom do they quote? Whom do they follow? From whom do they receive inspiration? Whom do they admonish members of the Church to follow? Who is their exemplar? What is the name of the church to which they give their lives in service?

As for Joseph Smith being mentioned more times than Jesus Christ, you err (sorry). In my previous post, I listed the ordinances/procedures in which Jesus Christ is prominently addressed. Please name for me even one on that list in which Joseph Smith is mentioned. The ordinances of the Church are done under the authority of Jesus Christ. Period.

This post reminds me of reading somewhere that the LDS believe Joseph Smith will actually be sitting next to Christ in Heaven deciding who goes where. How does that factor in to any of this? I would expect that if true, LDS people would want to talk about him quite a bit.

Respectfully,

Balzer

[Vance]

I have no idea. I can only trust that He will know my heart. You?

Respectfully,

Balzer

Well, I can provide several verses that claim we will be judged on our works.

Can you provide any verses that claim we will be judged on our faith?

[paulpatter]

. . . . Also, I have seen the above quote before and never understood from where they got that "to insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer insults the justice of God and makes Christ the minister of sin." Would you happen to know where in the Bible or the Book of Mormon this is explained or supported?

Perhaps the following scriptures will be helpful:

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1:22)

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3:18)

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (John 5:17)

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. (John 9:4)

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone [emphasis added]. James 2:24

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20)

For by grace are ye saved through faith, [emphasis added] and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2)

There are many more documenting the necessity for balance between grace and works. Michael W. Fordham, in "Ask the Apologist" (FAIR), writes: ". . .we do not believe that we 'work' our way into heaven. . . .LDS do not believe that works save us. . . . There are many scriptures that inform us that if we believe, we will be saved. But is belief the same thing as faith? Is there more to being saved than to believe (have faith) in Jesus Christ?" Fordham than proceeds to provide a long list of scriptures, some of which I have quoted hereon, that clearly establish the importance of balance between grace and works. Dr. Robinson probably relied on at least some of those scriptures when he wrote Believing Christ.

[TAO]

Paulputter, those quotes remind me of a verse in the Book of Mormon that I was reading the other night =D.

3 Nephi 24:13-18

13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say: What have we spoken against thee?

14 Ye have ^asaid: It is ^bvain to serve God, and what doth it profit that we have kept his ^cordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of Hosts?

15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16 Then they that feared the Lord ^aspake often one to another, and the Lord hearkened and heard; and a book of ^bremembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be ^amine, saith the Lord of Hosts, in that day when I ^bmake up my jewels; and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return and ^adiscern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

I think the verse speaks that those who are humble... and those who perform the ordinances (works) God wishes them to do, will be the Lord's 'jewels', and will be spared when the time comes... I think it says that perhaps forgiveness is easier for those who do works in the Lord's name?

What do you think?

Best Wishes,

TAO =)

[Balzer]

Well, I can provide several verses that claim we will be judged on our works.

Can you provide any verses that claim we will be judged on our faith?

I think maybe I have misunderstood your question? You asked how will I prove to God that I am a believer? I don't know how I might do that, but, I don't think I'll ever have to. I think believers are going to be in a wholly different situation than non-believers, although I do understand that believers are to be judged by their works.

Romans 8:1, says, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." On the basis of that one verse alone (and others) we can conclude that while believers will be judged after death we will not be condemned and consigned to hell. As Jesus tells us in John 6:40, "Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." That is a clear statement of justification at the end for all who look to Christ in faith.

Respectfully,

Balzer

[Balzer]

Perhaps the following scriptures will be helpful:

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1:22)

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3:18)

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (John 5:17)

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. (John 9:4)

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27)

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone [emphasis added]. James 2:24

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20)

For by grace are ye saved through faith, [emphasis added] and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2)

There are many more documenting the necessity for balance between grace and works. Michael W. Fordham, in "Ask the Apologist" (FAIR), writes: ". . .we do not believe that we 'work' our way into heaven. . . .LDS do not believe that works save us. . . . There are many scriptures that inform us that if we believe, we will be saved. But is belief the same thing as faith? Is there more to being saved than to believe (have faith) in Jesus Christ?" Fordham than proceeds to provide a long list of scriptures, some of which I have quoted hereon, that clearly establish the importance of balance between grace and works. Dr. Robinson probably relied on at least some of those scriptures when he wrote Believing Christ.

First of all, I don't really take issue with anything you've said here. But, here's how I see it: When the writer says that it is wrong to "insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer" I don't quite get it because I think that salvation does indeed come by belief alone, but I also think that God places other obligations upon the believer. I just don't think those obligations have anything to do with our salvation. They have only to do with our rewards in Heaven.

Respectfully,

Balzer

[paulpatter]

This post reminds me of reading somewhere that the LDS believe Joseph Smith will actually be sitting next to Christ in Heaven deciding who goes where. How does that factor in to any of this? I would expect that if true, LDS people would want to talk about him quite a bit.

"You read it "somewhere," huh? Would you like to elaborate?

[CV75]

I think that salvation does indeed come by belief alone, but I also think that God places other obligations upon the believer. I just don't think those obligations have anything to do with our salvation. They have only to do with our rewards in Heaven.

I think that salvation comes by Christ to believers and non-believers alike, by virtue of His resurrection being a free gift to all. The rewards in Heaven likewise come by Christ, but as you point out, only believers who accept the obligations God places upon them receive these rewards. Inasmuch as some believers receive some obligations and may carry some of them out (half-heartedly acting on their belief), and other believers receive all obligations placed upon them and carry them all out (fully acting on their belief)--and only God can judge which are which--Heaven is a place of many mansions and degrees of glory.

[paulpatter]

First of all, I don't really take issue with anything you've said here. But, here's how I see it: When the writer says that it is wrong to "insist that salvation comes by belief alone and that God places no other obligations upon the believer" I don't quite get it because I think that salvation does indeed come by belief alone, but I also think that God places other obligations upon the believer. I just don't think those obligations have anything to do with our salvation. They have only to do with our rewards in Heaven.

Respectfully,

Balzer

Michael Fordham also said (from the source cited previously): "Christ was our example. He taught us what we need to do by showing us, not just telling us. Christ showed us that we need not only to have faith and believe, but that we also need to be baptized, gain knowledge, pray often, confess and forsake our sins, and endure to the end. He also taught by example that we should 'abound in good works.' In fact, we will be judged by our works, not our faith. . . . Traditional believing Christians claim that works come as a result of being saved. I have always wondered how one can claim to be saved before he is even judged. According to the Bible, we will be judged accordingly to the works that we perform. Works is how we show our love, sincerity, worthiness, and faithfulness to the Lord. By works we are justified, not saved. . . .While LDS do not accept the 'faith alone' doctrine, we also do not accept the 'saved by works' doctrine that our critics try to put upon us. The reason we do not believe that faith alone will save us, is because that principle, besides being unbiblical, would destroy the principle of repentance."

I trust that the foregoing will provide clarification.